First batch: final volume to fermenter very low and other problems

[jascarver]

Hello,

My first beer all by myself is in the primary fermenter right now and I have some questions.

Recipe:
6 lbs pale malt
500 gr dark chocolate malt
400 gr oatmeal

I wanted to have 11.3L (3 Gal) of oatmeal stout in the fermenter.

I started by putting the oatmeal in 7L water and resting at 40 deg C (110F) for 15 min (beta-glucanase). Then I got up to 56 deg C and putted in the rest. I rested 30 min at 56 deg. Then I added 3L of boiling water to get up to 68 deg C (whic ended up being 70 deg C) for 45 min.

At this point my beer had a great dark color. I sparged with 4.2L but I ended up with an almost stuck mash. I added 2L more water hoping to unstuck the mash but my beer got brown. Finally I filtered manually the wort with a caged spoon and ended up with about 16L of brown wort in the boiler. Probably ended up with some particules

I wanted to get an OG of 1.07, but I had to evaporate 10L in order to get it! So have 6L left in ther primary.

I added hop pellets but I crushed them. When I helped my friend with another batch the big pellets made the pot have exploding bubbles and the water burned him and I wanted to avoid that. Now there is hop particule in my beer, is it normal or desirable?

What is going to happen with wort like this in the fermenter? What can I expect. My secondary is 11,3L, how do I fix that?

thank you

 

[Gavin C]

A few things

The grain bill will not give you a stout unfortunately. There are things that a stout needs that are not listed. Roasted barley coming to mind right away

The OG at 1.070 for a1.5 gallons with this grain bill points to extremely low efficiency. This in and of itself is not the issue. Efficiency this low however tells me that the grains were not adequately mashed. Your process sounds needlessly over complex

When I make an oatmeal stout I do a single infusion mash. (1 temperature all the grains in there at once for the duration)

Grain particulate in the boil is not desirable. Tannins get extracted from them during the boil.

Hops don't need to be crushed

What temperature did you cool it to before pitching the yeast. What yeast and what's the planned ferment schedule. These are important unmentioned components of the recipe.

Hops. Which ones were used, how much, for how long.

Sounds like a fun brew day. With the info you have given I would suggest your next brew is likely to be a lot more successful. Check out Yooper's Oatmeal stout in the database. A great recipe for what you are trying to make. It might highlight some areas to work on.

Best of luck going forward

Edit: Don't secondary. That's that problem solved

 

[MattyIce]

It sounds like you may have made your mash more complicated than it needed to be. I hit my gravity numbers with a single infusion at a single temperature. Can you outline your sparging process? I am betting that your efficiency issue is directly linked to your stuck sparge. Having a significant mass of flaked oats can make a mash quite sticky and be prone to difficult sparges. The hops are fine. Many of us simply dump all the boil kettle contents into the fermentor. What did you do for yeast?

As far as how it turns out...I bet you made beer.

 

[jascarver]

Hi

Thank you for the answers

I didn't mention it but there is actually 1lbs of dark chocolate malt and a little less than 100 gr roasted barley as my dark grains

A lot of water got stuck in the mash because of the oatmeal I think. I didn't want to squeeze it because I heard it would release the tannins and give a bad taste.

After boiling I cooled my pot in my sink. I agitated the cold water outside the pot and the beer inside while trying not to scrape the bottom for better heat transfert. I changed the water outside often. It took about 15-20min to cool to 25deg C. After I putted my dry ale yeast prealably putted into 200 ml of 1.04 OG wort tfor 1.5 hour with the wort into the primary fermenter.

I thought my room was at 19 but the indicator wasn't accurate and it was at 16 for 12 hours. I upped to temperature 3 hours ago (after 15 hours). There is no bubbling.

About the secondary fermentation (glass bottle) I thought you had to leave no space for air (have exact volume) so it will not oxidize? If I let everything in my primary fermenter there will be space for O2 and the yeast will never be anaerobic?

 

[Gavin C]

You have used a lot of specialty grains for the batch. These amounts are more typical of a 5 gallon batch not 1.5 as you have made. I think it will be undrinkable with these and the lack of effective mashing that went on.

Secondary it if you feel the need. This is not the main issue in play here. Yeast will not work differently in a primary or secondary.

Sounds like you are over complicating things with the yeast. If you are using dry yeast it is often helpful to check the guidelines from the manufacturer. The websites are very helpful.

There are really great recipes in the database and you will see the percentages of specialty grains used in stouts. 10-15% is a typical amount but often a lot less. It's a useful thing to be able to compare your own creating with others that have gone before. It can highlight errors or where you are out of step with the majority.

John Palmer's howtobrew.com is a very useful site.

 

[ong]

Very brave trying all grain for your first batch. Congrats that it went as well as it did! I suspect you'll still get a nice beer out of this, even if it's a little less than you planned on! Oatmeal is tricky, as it gets very glue-y and can stick up a mash.

Crushing your hop pellets did neither harm nor good, as they pretty much instantly dissolve to bits anyway. You just have to watch the boil when you add them to avoid a boilover.

I'd agree that you can just leave this in primary, especially if you don't have an adequately sized fermenter. I almost never secondary, even when I've got a lot of gunk in the primary -- it all drops out nicely. You don't need to worry about oxygen, since the headspace in your primary is filled with CO2 from the fermentation.

 

[jascarver]

Hi,

Thanks everyone.

If I ferment in my primary, will I be able to take sample of the wort to measure the gravity to know if it is over or not? Should I? I will not want to put more O2 in the fermenter by opening it. Or should I just wait 2 weeks before bottling from the primary, whatever the density is in it and age the bottle 1 month before drinking it? I was planning to wait 3-4 days in the primary to get the yeast to multiply then transfer to the secondary with a hint of coffee and cocoa to start the production of alcohol without oxygen for 2 weeks, then bottle with some sugar and wait another 3 week.

How do I know if I have the need to put it in my secondary fermenter?

I think the mashing was effective, I had all the water needed as told by the recipe, the temperature didnt go over 80 deg C and there was enough time for the mashing. I also added more hot water to try to unstuck the mash while filtering, shifting the color from black to brown. The final wort had a strong sugary taste as I think it should.

The problem is I think I have concentrated beer now because of the excessive boiling and I am not sure what it will give. The color isn't that dark but I am not sure about the relationship between boiling off the water and the darkening of the wort as the evaporated water isn't completely clear. The taste of the wort isn't awful. I also added a bit of sodium bicarbonate (4g for about 20L) because my water is soft and I read you should have harder water when brewing dark beer.

 

[Gavin C]

Hi,

Thanks everyone.

If I ferment in my primary, will I be able to take sample of the wort to measure the gravity to know if it is over or not? Should I? I will not want to put more O2 in the fermenter by opening it. Or should I just wait 2 weeks before bottling from the primary, whatever the density is in it and age the bottle 1 month before drinking it? I was planning to wait 3-4 days in the primary to get the yeast to multiply then transfer to the secondary with a hint of coffee and cocoa to start the production of alcohol without oxygen for 2 weeks, then bottle with some sugar and wait another 3 week.

How do I know if I have the need to put it in my secondary fermenter?

I think the mashing was effective, I had all the water needed as told by the recipe, the temperature didnt go over 80 deg C and there was enough time for the mashing. I also added more hot water to try to unstuck the mash while filtering, shifting the color from black to brown. The final wort had a strong sugary taste as I think it should.

The problem is I think I have concentrated beer now because of the excessive boiling and I am not sure what it will give. The color isn't that dark but I am not sure about the relationship between boiling off the water and the darkening of the wort as the evaporated water isn't completely clear. The taste of the wort isn't awful. I also added a bit of sodium bicarbonate (4g for about 20L) because my water is soft and I read you should have harder water when brewing dark beer.

Howtobrew.com should cover a lot of your questions. You are really asking the wrong ones. I'm not trying to give a cryptic answers but you really need a bit of knowledge on the fundamentals relating to mashing and fermenting

80 Celsius is much too hot for a mash
Your description of fermentation is somewhat amiss I would suggest.
Water additions can be useful only if you know what's in your water to begin with and what mineral profile and mash pH you want to target.
How do you know the mash was effective. Did you measure the Gravity prior to the boil.

Again I'm sorry to come across as an ass. I'm just trying to point you in the right direction.

I too salute your enthusiasm on your first brew. It just sounds like you bit off a bit more than you could chew. My first was an extract with steeping grains batch ( I think). Didn't have a clue what I was up to. Got beer though, as you will.

Onward and upward with a little homework. This site is fantastic.

 

[ncbrewer]

If I ferment in my primary, will I be able to take sample of the wort to measure the gravity to know if it is over or not? Should I? I will not want to put more O2 in the fermenter by opening it. Or should I just wait 2 weeks before bottling from the primary, whatever the density is in it and age the bottle 1 month before drinking it?

This depends on your feeling about messing with your beer. Charlie Papazian cautioned against too much "mucking about in your beer", and I agree. A good approach is to leave a "normal" beer in primary for three weeks before bottling. Three days ahead of time, take a gravity sample (then drink it when done - don't return it to the fermenter). On bottling day, take another sample. If the gravity is stable and the beer is clear or just slightly hazy, it's ok to bottle. If not, wait and try again later - but it would be very unusual for it to not be stable after three weeks. The two gravity sample idea is mainly for safety - you could bet bottle bombs if you bottle before fermentation is complete.

 

[Synap6]

Im not sure if i misunderstood or not, but this is very important:
Did you leave headroom in your fermenter or did you fill it to the top/brim?

Beware the krausen, which if left wih no room, will definitely spill out of fermenter

 

[Synap6]

Oh nervermind, you were speaking about the secondary

 

[Kharnynb]

Did you do something like this?
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=525556

Or do you use a mashtun?

 

[jascarver]

My primary fermenter is about 30L and there is 6L in the bottom. There is no chance that it will spill over.

My gravity at about 15min into the boil was 1.03. I got it up to 1.07. I didn't measure gravity while mashing but I am pretty sure the extraction and conversion of sugar was made.

The maximum temperature for the mash was 71 deg C, I meant previously that there is no way the temperature would have gone over 80 deg C at anytime or space

I know that my water is soft, so I added bicarbonate in the same way someone else did for another stout recipe.

Thanks

 

[Gavin C]

70+ Celsius is a good temperature to use to denature the enzymes effective in mashing. Edit: incorrect. I did the conversion wrong. 158F This is toward the upper end of mashing temperatures, sorry for my error. Bringing the mash to these temperatures is NOT known as a mash out.

I would discourage mash additions without knowing what your starting point is. There is a good thread in the brew science forum. A KISS thread that will be useful. Water chemistry primer. worthy of a read I would suggest.

If you are happy with your process as is and enjoy the results you can pretty much disregard everything I have mentioned in the thread. If, on the other hand, you feel the need to explore more, the threads I mentioned would be of use.

 

[jascarver]

Thank you for your inputs,

I didn't use a setup like what was used in the other thread. I filtered with two plastic buckets in each other. The bottom one has a a tap added to it and the top one has holes pierced in the bottom. There is a grain bed that form and filter the wort. The wort is recirculated until it's clear. This particuliar setup worked well with a beer I did with a group that didn't have any oatmeal.

About the mash temperature, I was trying to plateau at 68 deg C but I ended up at 71. I tried going down with a little cold water but only went down to 70. It is hard to control at first.

I think there is still diastasic activity at 71 deg C since the alpha-amylase only denatures at 78 deg C. There will probably enough sugar for the fermentation but the taste will maybe be different since some enzyme that were supposed to work at 68 deg C are denatured at 70 and doesn't work as fast at 56 deg (the plateau before). Those enzyme are according to the picture acid phosphatase, B-amylase, B-Mannosidase, pullulanase, carboxypeptidase end endopeptidase.

According to another source B-amylase works at more than 55 so the 56 plateau was useful for this. B-mannosidase isn't working. I think mannose isn't fermentescible, so maybe more cloudiness since it wasn't hydrolysed. Pullulanase breaks osidic links between glucose units in starch, so that would have been useful. Carboxypeptidase and endopeptidase breaks protein, so maybe less body and foam (small protein) to the beer.
Since the wort was concentrated there will be more ''stuff'' to it so I am not worried about this if I did sediment the big proteins in the cold rest.

 

[Tokoroa_Brewer]

1.03 seems like a very low pre boil gravity. I hit 1.05 - 1.055 for pre boil.

 

[jascarver]

Yes I added some additionnal water while trying to unstuck my mash and while trying to reduce the temperature a little bit in the mashing. I intended to boil it off after, but I am not sure if it is the best way since I have a very low volume.

 

[Gavin C]

I corrected my earlier post. 70C is not outside of the mashing window. You are completely correct. i had done a quick and incorrect mental conversion to farenheit. My apologies for the bad info.