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SmokeyMcBong

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also gonna be my first time controlling fermentation temps (underline fridge with STC). I want to brew something light so I was thinking of 6-7lbs of 2 row, 2lbs rice and or corn and a bittering hop only (I'm going for a lagerish feel, sound ok?). I have a pack of BRY-97 that I need to use up so that's there in the "on deck circle". I have a 7 gal round cooler MLT, a 30 quart BK (I know, its small) and a 5 gal round cooler HLT.

My plan is to mash at 1.5quarts per pound of grain. I wanna mash at a low temp maybe 148-50, for 60min. Then batch sparge to around 6 gal (I'll heat lots of sparge water and add whatever amount needed to reach my boil volume).

I've done a few extract batches so the boil and cooling is not new. I'm a classically trained chef so large amounts of hot water and ingredients are what I do everyday so I'm not too worried but I do have some questions about the procedure above...

1.What temp should I ferment at to get this yeasts cleanest finish?
2. Would you mash in the 5 gal cooler or the 7 gal for this beer? (I assume the 5 gal)
3. Is a 60min mash long enough?
4. Whats a good guess for strike water temp with 8-9lbs of grain and whichever cooler is suggested? (I heat strike water with a temp controlled heat stick in the MLT so no heat lost to the cooler at all)

I eventually will do lagers (I also have a industrial ice cream freezer with STC) but to start I wanted to do a temp controlled ale to because I've only had room temp fermented ale and wanted to taste the difference.

Thanks a bunch to anyone who can offer some help!!
 
Awesome first beer for all-grain and for temp control, as if you mess up, it will show your every flaw and then you can get better, or right off the bat brew a great beer and know you nailed it! No hiding behind hops and roasted malt.
1. Go to the lowest the yeast will tolerate. And don't pitch until your wort is AT fermentation temp. Sometimes that means putting your fermentor into the chamber to allow it to finish cooling, and THEN pitching.
2. 5 will be fine for 9 pounds at 1.5 per pound, and will have less thermal mass and less head space to lose heat into.
3. At the cooler mash temp, I'd go to 75 to 90, but you could always do a conversion test at 60.
4. For calculating strike water temp I always use software, so I can take into account the grain's thermal mass and temp. Good job on the heat stick. Heating the mash tun eliminates another variable.
 
SmokeyMcBong said:
also gonna be my first time controlling fermentation temps (underline fridge with STC). I want to brew something light so I was thinking of 6-7lbs of 2 row, 2lbs rice and or corn and a bittering hop only (I'm going for a lagerish feel, sound ok?). I have a pack of BRY-97 that I need to use up so that's there in the "on deck circle". I have a 7 gal round cooler MLT, a 30 quart BK (I know, its small) and a 5 gal round cooler HLT.

My plan is to mash at 1.5quarts per pound of grain. I wanna mash at a low temp maybe 148-50, for 60min. Then batch sparge to around 6 gal (I'll heat lots of sparge water and add whatever amount needed to reach my boil volume).

I've done a few extract batches so the boil and cooling is not new. I'm a classically trained chef so large amounts of hot water and ingredients are what I do everyday so I'm not too worried but I do have some questions about the procedure above...

1.What temp should I ferment at to get this yeasts cleanest finish?
2. Would you mash in the 5 gal cooler or the 7 gal for this beer? (I assume the 5 gal)
3. Is a 60min mash long enough?
4. Whats a good guess for strike water temp with 8-9lbs of grain and whichever cooler is suggested? (I heat strike water with a temp controlled heat stick in the MLT so no heat lost to the cooler at all)

I eventually will do lagers (I also have a industrial ice cream freezer with STC) but to start I wanted to do a temp controlled ale to because I've only had room temp fermented ale and wanted to taste the difference.

Thanks a bunch to anyone who can offer some help!!
Click to expand...

Do you have false bottoms/braids/manifolds in both your HLT and your MLT?

Personally, I'd definitely use your 7 gallon cooler for the mash. Using 1.5 quarts/lb, you're going to have close to three and a half gallons of water in there, plus 8-9 lbs of grain. That's going to be pretty tight and difficult to stir in a five gallon cooler. I use a 10 gallon MLT for my five gallon batches, and heat loss over an hour is about one degree.

All of my mashes are 60 minutes.

Don't guess with your strike water temp. Pour some hot water into your MLT to avoid temp loss to your equipment. Then with a thermometer, measure the temperature of your grain. Then use this online strike water temp calculator: http://www.brew365.com/mash_sparge_water_calculator.php

This will tell you exactly how much you need and at what temp. This gets me right to where I need to be, or only a degree off, every time.

EDIT: I missed the part about you using the heat stick in the MLT. Same advice, just ignore preheating your MLT.
 
Black Island Brewer said:
As I mentioned, I use software to calculate my mash volume. With 9 pounds of 2-row, figuring in grain volume and absorption, you'll need 4.08 gallons of space in your mash tun. The 5 gallon cooler is fine.

http://www.haandbryg.dk/mashcalc.html#mash
Click to expand...

It will work, yes, but if he has both sizes available, why not use the one with room to give a good stir? It's miserable trying to use equipment just barely big enough for what you're doing. The extra air space makes very little difference in heat loss over the course of an hour.
 
He asked if it would work. It will. Less head space is better than more. Why go big when you don't have to?

I only re-commented because I didn't back up my suggestion with an actual number, and a link to the calculator, so that he would know that 5 gallons really IS fine.
 
Black Island Brewer said:
He asked if it would work. It will. Less head space is better than more. Why go big when you don't have to?

I only re-commented because I didn't back up my suggestion with an actual number, and a link to the calculator, so that he would know that 5 gallons really IS fine.
Click to expand...

Have you ever tried to stir grain into a mash tun with less than a gallon of head space? I have. It doesn't work well. Keep in mind that the 4.1 gallon number is the volume after the grain has absorbed the water. Picture 9 lbs of dry grain, and what that looks like. That's going to take up probably 2-3 gallons of space when dry. As you're stirring, the dry grain is absorbing water, so that 4.1 number is actually higher while stirring. You can ameliorate this somewhat by adding the grain more slowly (and actually that is the only way to do it using such a small mash tun), but it's still a miserable thing to do.

I'm not trying to get into a pissing match with you, I'm just trying to make life easier for the OP. And using the bigger MLT will make life easier for him.
 
Dude. I mash nine and a half gallons in a 10 gallon brew in a bag system all the time. It's not a big deal. And the guy who says he's not trying to get into a pissing match usually is.
 
Black Island Brewer said:
Dude. I mash nine and a half gallons in a 10 gallon brew in a bag system all the time. It's not a big deal. And the guy who says he's not trying to get into a pissing match usually is.
Click to expand...

I'm truly not trying to get into a pissing match. I realized that my discussion could come across as being argumentative, so I made a point to let you know that I wasn't intentionally doing this.

If that works for you, than who am I to argue with that? I'm just giving a different perspective that so that the OP can make an informed decision. And truthfully I thought that you probably never tried mashing at such high volumes for your container. Guess I was wrong on that point.
 
max384 said:
I'm truly not trying to get into a pissing match. I realized that my discussion could come across as being argumentative, so I made a point to let you know that I wasn't intentionally doing this.

If that works for you, than who am I to argue with that? I'm just giving a different perspective that so that the OP can make an informed decision. And truthfully I thought that you probably never tried mashing at such high volumes for your container. Guess I was wrong on that point.
Click to expand...

Fair enough. Multiple perspectives are what this forum is great for.
 
If you decide on using rice, it's not a bad idea to crack the rice and boil it. Then, use the rice to raise the main mash to a certain temperature.

Since, you are a chef, trying out new things and experimenting are probably second nature.

Consider brewing the beer in this fashion.
Bring the cracked rice to a boil. When the rice begins to boil, dough in the malt using water that is hot enough to raise the mash to 100F. After the rice has boiled for 20 minutes, slowly, add it into the mash resting at 100F. The rice will be used to raise the main mash from 100F to 135F. Extra rice in the boiler can be cooled and added into the main mash at that time. Rest the mash at 135F for 20 minutes. Then, infuse boiling water to raise the mash to the chosen conversion temperature.
Instead of cooling down the extra rice, it can be reheated and used to raise the mash resting at 135F to the beta rest temperature. Boiling infusions of hot water might not have to be used.
The same processes can be used with corn. Use iodine to determine when conversion occurs. The processes stabilize pH and and allows the mash to rest in the proteolysis range, before being raised to conversion temperature. The proteolysis rest will reduce mash viscosity and produce glucose. Mash resting at 148F is in the beta range. At 148F, alpha is active, as well. The enzyme is working at a very slow rate.

If you want to kick in "artistic license."
You can add a pound of two row and a small amount of sour malt to the rice or corn. Dough in using water hot enough to raise the mixture to 122F. Rest the mixture for 20 minutes. Then, infuse boiling water or apply direct heat to raise the mixture to 155F. Rest the mixture for 20 minutes. Then, bring the mixture to boiling and boil for 20 minutes. Add the boiling mixture to the main mash to raise the temperature to 135F. Then, follow the same procedures in the section above. The process affords the brewer the opportunity to control enzymatic action.

The wider the pallette is for a chef to work from, the more interesting the final product becomes. Same thing when it comes to brewing beer.

After the rice has boiled for 20 minutes, there should be standing water above the rice.

With the equipment that you have now, all that you'd need to add is a two gallon stock pot and you could easily decoction mash.

BREW ON!!
 
VladOfTrub said:
If you decide on using rice, it's not a bad idea to crack the rice and boil it. Then, use the rice to raise the main mash to a certain temperature.

Since, you are a chef, trying out new things and experimenting are probably second nature.

Consider brewing the beer in this fashion.
Bring the cracked rice to a boil. When the rice begins to boil, dough in the malt using water that is hot enough to raise the mash to 100F. After the rice has boiled for 20 minutes, slowly, add it into the mash resting at 100F. The rice will be used to raise the main mash from 100F to 135F. Extra rice in the boiler can be cooled and added into the main mash at that time. Rest the mash at 135F for 20 minutes. Then, infuse boiling water to raise the mash to the chosen conversion temperature.
Instead of cooling down the extra rice, it can be reheated and used to raise the mash resting at 135F to the beta rest temperature. Boiling infusions of hot water might not have to be used.
The same processes can be used with corn. Use iodine to determine when conversion occurs. The processes stabilize pH and and allows the mash to rest in the proteolysis range, before being raised to conversion temperature. The proteolysis rest will reduce mash viscosity and produce glucose. Mash resting at 148F is in the beta range. At 148F, alpha is active, as well. The enzyme is working at a very slow rate.

If you want to kick in "artistic license."
You can add a pound of two row and a small amount of sour malt to the rice or corn. Dough in using water hot enough to raise the mixture to 122F. Rest the mixture for 20 minutes. Then, infuse boiling water or apply direct heat to raise the mixture to 155F. Rest the mixture for 20 minutes. Then, bring the mixture to boiling and boil for 20 minutes. Add the boiling mixture to the main mash to raise the temperature to 135F. Then, follow the same procedures in the section above. The process affords the brewer the opportunity to control enzymatic action.

The wider the pallette is for a chef to work from, the more interesting the final product becomes. Same thing when it comes to brewing beer.

After the rice has boiled for 20 minutes, there should be standing water above the rice.

With the equipment that you have now, all that you'd need to add is a two gallon stock pot and you could easily decoction mash.

BREW ON!!
Click to expand...

Ya need big ones to take that on as your first AG! Kind of like teaching someone to dive from the 10M platform. :eek:

If the OP wants to, and thinks he can pull it off, then he should go for it.

Brew on :mug:
 
Wow, thank for the responses guys! And thanks for the small bit of dramatic entertainment lol.

I just got back from the HBS. I ended up getting what was basically their "Canadian Light" kit, minus the yeast with a small swap out. My bounty consists of 6lbs of 2 row, 1lb of flaked corn, 1lb of rice hulls and one oz of strisselspalt hops. The swap out was the rice, it was supposed to be 2lb of corn and no rice. The guy at the HBS said it should still be fine with the rice and corn instead of just corn.

Now that I'm writing this, I'm thinking it was supposed to be flaked rice not rice hulls right?

So, I'm thinking I don't have enough grains to do a 5 gal batch now do I??
 
So a buddy of mine and fellow brewer has offered me a pound or two of 2 row to bump up my recipe so I'm back in the game.

Beersmith is telling me that my strike water should be 159.1 and brewers friend is saying 159.5 so I guess that's that.
 
SmokeyMcBong said:
Wow, thank for the responses guys! And thanks for the small bit of dramatic entertainment lol.

I just got back from the HBS. I ended up getting what was basically their "Canadian Light" kit, minus the yeast with a small swap out. My bounty consists of 6lbs of 2 row, 1lb of flaked corn, 1lb of rice hulls and one oz of strisselspalt hops. The swap out was the rice, it was supposed to be 2lb of corn and no rice. The guy at the HBS said it should still be fine with the rice and corn instead of just corn.

Now that I'm writing this, I'm thinking it was supposed to be flaked rice not rice hulls right?

So, I'm thinking I don't have enough grains to do a 5 gal batch now do I??
Click to expand...
You could also head to the grocery store and pick up some Minute Rice, which is already converted and can be mashed at saccharification temps without a cereal mash. But with the extra malt your friend hooked up with will be fine too. What yeast will you be using? I'm planning to spend 2015 using White Labs Cream Ale blend on multiple styles (all from one vial), and Golden Ale Canadian Style Ale is one of the styles this yeast is recommended for.
 
SmokeyMcBong said:
Now that I'm writing this, I'm thinking it was supposed to be flaked rice not rice hulls right?

So, I'm thinking I don't have enough grains to do a 5 gal batch now do I??
Click to expand...


yes flaked rice, but I use minute rice in mine for flaked rice with corn meal for the corn

put you grain in brewing software and see what you get

http://www.brewersfriend.com

a free one

a very good cream ale

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f62/cream-three-crops-cream-ale-66503/

all the best

S_M
 
SmokeyMcBong said:
So, with minute rice I can just mix it with the rest of my grain bill and mash at the same temp (149ish) that I was gonna mash at anyway?



It's BRY-97 west coast ale yeast.
Click to expand...

yes you can I mash in a cooler with a bag and do a double batch sparge

I mash my cream ale for 90 minute to help dry it out

BRY-97 is a good yeast for ales but it can be slow to start so don't worried

I use US-05 in mine

good luck

S_M
 
Ok, I'm heating the strike water now...

I went to my buddies place last night for a pound of 2 row, I ended up leaving with almost 5.5 pounds of pilsner lol. I also went to the grocery store and grabbed a box of minute rice. I scaled out half of the pilsner and added enough 2 row to make 6lbs. To that I added a pound of flaked corn and a pound of minute rice. I'm also planning on chucking in a quarter pound of the rice hulls, since I have them anyway.

Beersmith is saying I should be around 1.040 OG and about 1.008 FG. I'm mashing at 1.5 quarts a pound and will be mashing for 75 minutes.

Thanks again to all who helped out. I'll update as the day goes....
 
SmokeyMcBong said:
Ok, I'm heating the strike water now...

I went to my buddies place last night for a pound of 2 row, I ended up leaving with almost 5.5 pounds of pilsner lol. I also went to the grocery store and grabbed a box of minute rice. I scaled out half of the pilsner and added enough 2 row to make 6lbs. To that I added a pound of flaked corn and a pound of minute rice. I'm also planning on chucking in a quarter pound of the rice hulls, since I have them anyway.

Beersmith is saying I should be around 1.040 OG and about 1.008 FG. I'm mashing at 1.5 quarts a pound and will be mashing for 75 minutes.

Thanks again to all who helped out. I'll update as the day goes....
Click to expand...

Good luck, and have fun.

Brew on :mug:
 
Well, my first all grain brew day is in the books!! It was a great learning experience thats for sure! Can't say that I had any real problems that weren't a direct result of not knowing my equipment. Firstly, my heat stick won't really heat such a small amount of strike water in my 7 gallon cooler. Most of the element is not submerged therefore not on. I had to put my water back into my 5 gallon cooler to heat to strike temp, then I missed the strike temp too low after the transfer. I heated to the correct temp before doughing in though. I came up a little shy of 5 gallons and my OG is 1.047, I guess I could top up with water but I don't think I'm gonna. I chilled it down to 30ish deg C with my WC and now its in the ferm fridge inching down to pitch temp.

I mashed for 90 mins, I tasted the wort at 65 mins and could swear I could taste starch but it was probably just cuz I was looking for it. Hit my mash temp right on the nose and after 65 mins I added a little boiling water to regain the deg or two that I had lost. I batch sparged with 168 deg F water, ended up having to batch sparge twice because I miscalculated how much to sparge with the first time. Again, a learning experience. I think next time I do a small batch like this, I'll mash in the 5 gal cooler and heat most all of the brewday water onetime at the beginning of the day in the 7 gal cooler.

The boil was great, the electric elements worked great. It seemed to keep an ok boil with one element on, but a fantastic boil with both elements on (two 1500w). Chilling was also uneventful...

So here I am, fermenter is at 18 deg C. Time to pitch.....
 
Just an update...

So, about a week in and it seems that the bulk of fermentation has occurred. It took the BRY-97 around 40-45 hours to take off but once it started, it was a monster. Bubbled hard for 3 days and then all was silent. One thing that I noticed was the super delicious aroma coming from this beer while fermenting. Not sure if its because of the proper temp control or just a result of the all grain beer but I wanted to drink it right out of the fermenter (based on smell). God, I hope it tastes like it smells!

I'm gearing up to do my second batch in the next few days. The same friend who helped me out with the grains for my first brew just hooked me up again, but big time this time (thanks Mike). He said he's done brewing for the year (he doesn't brew in the winter) and he had some ingredients left over which he wanted me to have. I wasn't expecting a whole bunch but I was wrong lol.

I ended up leaving with the following:
Malt-4lbs wheat malt, 4lbs Vienna malt, 4lbs Munich malt and 1lb chocolate malt.
Yeast-3 vials San Diego super yeast, 1 vial Belgian wit ale yeast and 1 vial English ale yeast
Hops-2 oz Horizon pellets, 2 oz Willamette pellets, 1 oz UK Fuggles pellets, 1 oz Mt. Hood pellets, 1 oz Northern Brewer raw leaf, 2 oz Warrior pellets and close to a half pound of Australian Galaxy pellets.

I don't really know anything about any of these ingredients lol, I'll problably start a new thread asking for advice in what to use them for.

Edit: He also sent me home with his Barley Crusher!!
 
Incase anyone cares, I'm drinking my first bottle of this beer. Absolutely delicious! Very clean and crisp, I know its shunned here but its very commercial quality. I don't know if it was because its all grain or because I controlled the fermentation temp but this beer is an all together different being then any of the extract beers I ever made. I'm guessing that most of it has to do with temp over ingredients but just to be sure, I've got a Brewers Best Amber kit to put in bottles in a few days. Just to see what the difference between temp controlled and non-temp controlled extract beer.

On another note, is 10am too early for beer?
 
SmokeyMcBong said:
Incase anyone cares, I'm drinking my first bottle of this beer. Absolutely delicious! Very clean and crisp, I know its shunned here but its very commercial quality. I don't know if it was because its all grain or because I controlled the fermentation temp but this beer is an all together different being then any of the extract beers I ever made. I'm guessing that most of it has to do with temp over ingredients but just to be sure, I've got a Brewers Best Amber kit to put in bottles in a few days. Just to see what the difference between temp controlled and non-temp controlled extract beer.

On another note, is 10am too early for beer?
Click to expand...

Congratulations! Welcome to the next level.

Brew on :mug:
 
SmokeyMcBong said:
On another note, is 10am too early for beer?
Click to expand...

We all have our own rules. Hydrometer samples can be consumed any time. Pints can be consumed on brew day as soon as the boil kettle is lit (as long as all the additions are weighted and marked with times) which for me is sometimes as early as 7:30 am. 5:30 am is okay too as long I'm still up from the previous day.
 

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