Beta glucan rest in AiO

[rmr9]

I’m thinking of brewing a rye doppelbock soon and I’m debating on whether to do a beta glucan rest or not. I know there are mixed opinions, and I lean more towards “yes” I would like to do one.

Herein lies my question. I brew on a Brewzilla and I was thinking of adding my strike water, heating to beta glucan rest temps and then adding just the rye malt with some rice hulls for the rest. Then heat to mash temps and add the barley malt. Can anyone see any issues with this? Am I creating more work and potential for stuck sparge by not adding all the grains at once?

 

[IslandLizard]

It may depend on the percentage of rye. How much?

I do that with higher rye (or wheat) percentages (above 20%). Now I would be mashing in the heavy duty kettle with a triple-ply bottom, with direct heat from an induction plate with good stirring while scraping the bottom to prevent scorching. It's a bit of a workout!
After the mashout, the converted cooler mash tun is then used only for lautering and batch sparging (2x).

Now with your AIO it's not that simple since it has a mash pipe. Would you be heating the mash with recirculation?

 

[rmr9]

My plan is to mash around 12lbs of grain and make up the rest of the gravity with DME. For the grains going into the mash, it’s approximately 25% rye. Once the DME is added it’s closer to 20% of the fermentables.

Good question about recirculating. I think in heating from b-glucan I probably won’t use it since I’ll need to leave the top screen of the malt pipe off to add the barley in.

 

[Bassman2003]

In my experience, running any heating element below gel temps leads to particles sticking to something metal and scorching. This is not instant but the run from around 100F to 150F is quite a lot of time running the elements. When I brew hefeweizen in my Anvil Foundry I add all of my grain and a portion of the strike water for the 111F rest. I then bring the remaining strike water to a boil and infuse to the beta rest. But you need an HLT for this, killing the AIO idea.

 

[IslandLizard]

Good question about recirculating. I think in heating from b-glucan I probably won’t use it since I’ll need to leave the top screen of the malt pipe off to add the barley in.

Are you thinking of doing the beta-glucan rest with only the rye malt?
Yeah, you said that.

In light of what @Bassman2003 said above^, I think it's easier (and better) to do the beta-glucan rest with only the ~3 pounds of rye in a (large) pot on the stove.
Then have your Brewzilla ready to go for the main mash, add the grist, while mixing in the (wet) rye mash.*

* Just make sure to mix the (wet) rye mash thoroughly with the rest of the grist, or you'll end up with a rye brick in the mash pipe.

 

[rmr9]

I was planning to do the rest with just the rye. Interesting, and one of the last things I want to do is scorch anything on my elements. I guess I have to weigh out whether the b-glucan rest is worth the trouble and potential issues.

 

[IslandLizard]

I was planning to do the rest with just the rye. Interesting, and one of the last things I want to do is scorch anything on my elements. I guess I have to weigh out whether the b-glucan rest is worth the trouble and potential issues.

I edited my original response in #5^^, offering a better solution for the beta-glucan rest.

 

[Bassman2003]

Or just heat the strike water on the stove and add it in.

Every system is different so maybe try it the initial way and maybe you will not scorch. I used to have exposed heating elements and they attracted particles. In my Foundry I notice a layer of gunk on the bottom if I run the element under gel temps for too long. But your system might be fine. Only way to know is firsthand knowledge. I would be in favor of the rest as I like clear wort.

 

[rmr9]

I could always “double bag” my malt pipe with a BIAB bag as well to try to limit any particles. This seems like it would only go so far though. Maybe the stovetop rest followed by adding it to the main mash after is the way to go. I definitely want to have a more clear end product and I want some of the mouthfeel but not over the top from the rye.

 

[IslandLizard]

I definitely want to have a more clear end product and I want some of the mouthfeel but not over the top from the rye.

At 25% you will certainly taste the rye, and won't be over the top (for me, there can never be too much rye ).

Clarity will be harder to achieve... I've had Rye beers stay quite "milky" throughout their serving time. AFAIK, they're the proteins that they cause haziness, not the beta-glucans. Beta-glucans are like glue, making for a slow or stuck lauter/sparge.

My 60% Wheat Beer (6.5% ABV, WY1318, London III) has finally cleared after 2 months in a keg in the keezer. I've enjoyed drinking her all along the way. The clearer beer tastes crispier, less malty.

All the Wheat (50% flaked Wheat, 10% Wheat malt), together with about half the Barley (20%) was single decocted, by itself. Then mashed with the remainder of the Barley (20%) for an hour at 154F. Similar to what you're going to do.

I'm using a triple-ply bottomed brew kettle and a converted rectangular cooler mash tun, no AIO.

 

[rmr9]

At 25% you will certainly taste the rye, and won't be over the top (for me, there can never be too much rye ).

Clarity will be harder to achieve... I've had Rye beers stay quite "milky" throughout their serving time. AFAIK, they're the proteins that they cause haziness, not the beta-glucans. Beta-glucans are like glue, making for a slow or stuck lauter/sparge.

My 60% Wheat Beer (6.5% ABV, WY1318, London III) has finally cleared after 2 months in a keg in the keezer. I've enjoyed drinking her all along the way. The clearer beer tastes crispier, less malty.

All the Wheat (50% flaked Wheat, 10% Wheat malt), together with about half the Barley (20%) was single decocted, by itself. Then mashed with the remainder 20% of the Barley for an hour at 154F. Similar to what you're going to do.

I'm using a triple-ply bottomed brew kettle and a converted rectangular cooler mash tun, no AIO.

Makes sense on the protein vs. beta glucan. I plan to lager it for a good 6 months or so before I drink it so maybe that’ll be enough time to clear!

I brewed EdWort’s rye IPA many years ago and that was my only experience brewing with rye and it came out fantastic. Finally figured it was time to try it again.

 

[rmr9]

Back then I certainly wasn’t paying attention to most of the “details” of brewing and had a very different system than I do now!

 

[IslandLizard]

Makes sense on the protein vs. beta glucan.

You can perform a combined beta-glucanase/protein rest at 113-121F for 15-30 minutes. No longer, or you may get issues with foam retention in the finished beer.

Back then I certainly wasn’t paying attention to most of the “details” of brewing and had a very different system than I do now!

Oh, let me add, mash at low temps (146-148F), and because of that, longer than an hour (90-120 mins). You want excellent fermentability! Especially since you're adding malt extract (at the end of the boil), which is not quite as fermentable.

 

[rmr9]

I was planning to do a hochkurz step mash of 145 for 30 then 158 for 45. I’ve done this with an altbier and a dunkel and I got good attenuation with both.

 

[DuncB]

Could just add 5ml of glucanase if you can get it. I had problems with my AIO using rye first time when I managed to mill the rye to the perfect size to block all of the holes in the plate at the bottom of the malt pipe.
Finer crushing solved this on following rye altbiers, I do use glucanase in all my mashes as routine though.

 

[rmr9]

Could just add 5ml of glucanase if you can get it. I had problems with my AIO using rye first time when I managed to mill the rye to the perfect size to block all of the holes in the plate at the bottom of the malt pipe.
Finer crushing solved this on following rye altbiers, I do use glucanase in all my mashes as routine though.

That’s not a bad idea either, it would eliminate many of the potential problems from above. My only concern would be that the glucanase would strip away all of the rye-supplied mouth feel. Though I guess it may not be any different than a rest step. Does it have faster and increased enzymatic activity?

Milling was something I thought about. I have an old corona mill lying around that I was gonna to tighten up some for the rye.

 

[IslandLizard]

Milling was something I thought about. I have an old corona mill lying around that I was gonna to tighten up some for the rye.

Rye kernels are much smaller than barley and may not get crushed as well on gap that works well for barley.

So yeah, milling the rye with a tighter gap or a "special small kernel mill" is beneficial. Same reasoning for wheat and oat malt.
I always do that, which means I usually need to reset the mill gap at least once for each milling session. I often brew 2 batches back to back, or on subsequent days (only one cleanup!), so I get more mileage out of each mill setting.