First AG Doppelbock - tastes a bit sweeter than expected

[austun-reddog]

OK, this is my first post on the forum after many months of reading through various threads. I've been brewing for almost a year now with many AG batches under my belt. Feel quite comfortable in the overall creation and brewing process. Decided to make a stab at a doppelbock! :rockin:

I do have lagering capabilities (two chest freezers) which I use all the time for lagering, aging, crashing, etc.

My AG recipe is:
8.5 lbs Munich Dark
5 lbs Pilsen
0.5 lbs CaraMunich
0.12 lbs Carafa III

1.5 oz Hallertauer 6.2%aa
White Labs 833 Bock Yeast, 4L starter made
Munich water profile

Brewdate: 7/9/2011
Double Decoction mash with mashout
Fly sparge
60 min boil
.75 oz hops at 50 min
.50 oz at 25 min
.25 oz at 5 min

OG = 1.078
FG = 1.020
ABV = 7.6%
SRM = 22

Ferment at 52F for 8 days
Diacetyl rest at 65F for 2 days
Ramp down to 35F over the next week, lager at 35F for 2 months

Tasting at 2 months was awesome! Decided to bottle with some additional yeast to allow some bottle aging to occur. Used 3 grams of Saflager S-23 with corn sugar to prime the bottles (used a bottling bucket). This was one week ago (10/1/2011). Left the bottles at room temp (72F) to carbonate.

Now I usually give 2 weeks to properly carbonate anything, whether force carb in keg or in bottles, before I'm ready to drink, but this time I couldn't wait to try out the doppelbock. It has been 3 months since it was brewed!

To my shock, yes the beer was fully carbed, but all of a sudden there is a sweetness that I didn't taste in the uncarbed beer. It seems totally out of style. Opened up a Spaten Optimator to compare -- the Optimator seems to have a more bready malt forward flavor, while mine is sweeter. Alcohol levels are the same -- in fact, if I were to compare gravities of the two, they are bang on, and so is the color. I'm not tasting diacetyl or any off esters either -- the lagering created a very smooth clean beer. Just overly sweet.

Where did I go wrong with this? Did the extra yeast added for bottle conditioning impart off flavors? Or is it the grain bill?

BTW, here is a picture of both my Doppebock and Spaten Optimator -- can you guess which one is which?

 

[Yooper]

If it's too sweet, it's probably underhopped. What were the IBUs? .75 ounce of 6.2% halleratauers for (at 50 minutes yet!) bittering a 1.078 beer seems very very low.

 

[austun-reddog]

IBUs on this recipe came in at 23IBU (Rager). Seems right in the range for a doppelbock. When I tasted the beer last week before priming, it was awesome. Only now after it has been bottle primed with the S-23 yeast do I get this sweet profile, not too mention a bit of that on the nose as well. I wonder what flavors this S-23 imparts, especially one week after I bottled it?

 

[BigEd]

I agree with Yooper that the beer is probably underhopped. At an OG of 1.078 23IBUs are not enough IMO, 34IBUs or so would help with the flavor balance. The beer may not have had enough time at primary ferment either. Eight days @ 52F may not have gotten the job done properly leaving some sugars now giving you a sweet flavor. Also, what was the actual mash schedule and temperatures?

 

[austun-reddog]

Thanks for the feedback. This is where I'm confused. If BJCP states IBUs in the 16 - 26 range (I'm 23 IBU), and I fully attenuated based upon grain bill and yeast to hit my final gravity, I shouldn't be tasting this sweetness. In fact, prior to bottling it tasted exactly like I would expect a doppelbock to taste. Thus I'm leaning on the S-23 yeast and the bottle priming. Should I simply place the bottles back in the lagering fridge for a couple of weeks to see if this changes the profile? Makes me wish I kegged it instead, but thought of bottle aging would be a nice addition to the bear...

BTW, decoction mash profile was 122/20min, 148/30min, 158/30min, mo at 170

Well, at least it's football Sunday and I have plenty of other homebrews for the games

 

[BigEd]

Thanks for the feedback. This is where I'm confused. If BJCP states IBUs in the 16 - 26 range (I'm 23 IBU), and I fully attenuated based upon grain bill and yeast to hit my final gravity, I shouldn't be tasting this sweetness.

There are just too many variables in homebrew IBU calculations for you to assume that your numbers are the same as those BJCP numbers. In other words it isn't necessarily so that your 23 is really the same as their 23. Whether or not that BJCP number is correct (and I don't think it is) I am still inclined to believe that your beer is underhopped as well as likely underattentuated for whatever reason. Zeroing in on the exact cause of the sweetness and the exact nature of the sweetness is the way to get on solving the problem. Defining whether it is malty/sweetness from not enough hops to balance or sugary/sweetness from underattentuation is where you want to start. As far as the mashing goes I would suggest moving up the first temp closer to 128/130F and extending the time @ 148F to a full hour.

 

[Yooper]

When I run those numbers in Beersmith, I get 13 IBUs (Tinseth)!

Someone's calculator is wrong. But I can't imagine a 50 minute boil of .75 ounce 6.2 AAU hops giving you 23 IBUs- I think that's wrong.

Since it finished at 1.020 (which is pretty sweet anyway) and it's got an IBU/SG ratio of .170 according to my calculations, that's going to be a pretty sweet tasting beer, probably nearly syrupy.

 

[austun-reddog]

Thanks for the replies to all! I think I'll simply let the bottles age at around 45F for a while to see if the flavor changes. I ran the numbers through both BeerSmith and other calculators and am getting the same numbers as before. Since the beer tasted great before the addition of the bottling yeast, I guess the addition of the new yeast for bottling are leaving some flavors I didn't expect (sweetness is the word I use, but maybe it is off esters that impart a sweet tone). Hopefully it'll clean up over time.

 

[austun-reddog]

Thought I should provide an update. After a week of letting the beer set, the off taste/sweetness that I was tasting has leveled to now what I can definitively state is Diacetyl. It wasn't in the original beer considering the efforts to perform the Diacetyl rest. It was re-introduced with the new lager yeast added at bottling. I can only hope this yeast eats up its mess over time...

 

[Woodbury419]

Reading this makes me wonder if my IBU's is enough now (i planned according to BJCP as well). I crafted a Dopplebock last week and it's at SG 1.082 with 24 IBU's (Tinseth). I used Wyeast 2308 and created a big starter, but unfortunately it hasn't shown any signs of life. I crafted a Munich Helles 3 (S-23) weeks ago and I plan on racking it to a secondary tomorrow. I plan on using that slurry from the Munich Helles to ferment my Dopplebock tomorrow.

 

[turkeyjerky214]

Okay, I really don't get what the difference between Tinseth, Rager, etc. is. I'm sure I'm just misunderstanding something, but to me it seems as arbitrary as saying "with this scale, that water is 70º F, and with this scale, the water is 95º F." It's IBUs, so why are there such drastic differences, and how do you know which one to use???

I'm doing a Doppelbock on Friday, and with Rager, I've got 24 IBUs, but with Tinseth, it says I'm at 17.8. How do I know which to trust?

 

[Woodbury419]

Okay, I really don't get what the difference between Tinseth, Rager, etc. is. I'm sure I'm just misunderstanding something, but to me it seems as arbitrary as saying "with this scale, that water is 70º F, and with this scale, the water is 95º F." It's IBUs, so why are there such drastic differences, and how do you know which one to use???

I'm doing a Doppelbock on Friday, and with Rager, I've got 24 IBUs, but with Tinseth, it says I'm at 17.8. How do I know which to trust?

From my understanding Tinseth is more accurate than Rager. If Im incorrect someone please correct me, but Rager is a perceived bitterness and Tinseth is pretty close to the utilization the big boys get. I've always used Tinseth for my IBU's when formulating a recipe together. It's never let me down before but again, I've never made a huge beer before with such low IBU's (Dopplebock). My Oktoberfest was within BJCP guidelines and it came out great!

 

[austun-reddog]

Now that it has been some time since I bottled, I have to say that this Doppelbock is the best I've made. The yeast definitely did clean up its diacytel in the bottle, and the beer is smooth and malty!

I was within BJCP guidelines using Rager as my units for IBU. All my beers up till then where Rager, and all tasted well. I am not a hophead like many are, so I wonder if Rager gives me a bittering profile which is more suitable to my pallete?? I read that simply find one unit of IBU, and stick with it as it is simply a measuring stick to compare against relatively. But I'm going to begin playing with Tinseth and brew some previous beers to see how drastically it affects the perceived bitterness.

I just brewed a Piny the Elder clone (for my hophead wife) -- on Rager is was calculated around 285IBU, on Tinseth it was 246IBU. But my understanding is that actual IBUs really goes asymptotic around 100 or so IBUs either way in practice, so probably not going to tell any difference there. But for the lighter color beers I brew (Helles, American Wheat, Saison), this exercise might help me find a preference in setting the IBU units.

 

[Woodbury419]

Now that it has been some time since I bottled, I have to say that this Doppelbock is the best I've made. The yeast definitely did clean up its diacytel in the bottle, and the beer is smooth and malty!

I was within BJCP guidelines using Rager as my units for IBU. All my beers up till then where Rager, and all tasted well. I am not a hophead like many are, so I wonder if Rager gives me a bittering profile which is more suitable to my pallete?? I read that simply find one unit of IBU, and stick with it as it is simply a measuring stick to compare against relatively. But I'm going to begin playing with Tinseth and brew some previous beers to see how drastically it affects the perceived bitterness.

I just brewed a Piny the Elder clone (for my hophead wife) -- on Rager is was calculated around 285IBU, on Tinseth it was 246IBU. But my understanding is that actual IBUs really goes asymptotic around 100 or so IBUs either way in practice, so probably not going to tell any difference there. But for the lighter color beers I brew (Helles, American Wheat, Saison), this exercise might help me find a preference in setting the IBU units.

Well, with my Dopplebock not fermenting it started a whole series of "Second Guessing" myself..I just remembered why I chose such a low IBU (Tinseth) for the Dopplebock. My Sulfate to Chloride water ratio is considered a hopsaver. So on brewday I used 5 gals RO and 3 gals tap. But, I am interested to see what your conclusions are between Rager and Tinseth. I already have multiple experiments going on to start that playing with that. Right now I'm playing with rest/temp times with one of my Flagship brews I make. BTW...246IBU beer!!:rockin: That's amazing, I haven't had a beer hopped beyond 120 IBU's yet. How does it taste by chance?!

 

[austun-reddog]

The Pliny clone tasted awesome coming out of primary. It is dry hopping right now with 7 oz of whole leaf hops (centennial, Columbus, and Simcoe). Probably the most expensive beer I've brewed, but hopefully worth it since I can't get Pliny here in Texas.

 

[periwinkle1239]

Now that it has been some time since I bottled, I have to say that this Doppelbock is the best I've made. The yeast definitely did clean up its diacytel in the bottle, and the beer is smooth and malty!

Great to see this! I just brewed a decoction doppelbock myself and am spazzing out over it. Part of it is that I'm going to have to wait 5-6 months to actually determine how it really turns out. I hope it is a hit at our Memorial Day party!

 

[mbk1487]

FWIW, I did a bock last Feb that was initially way too sweet tasting. After lagering until August I gave it another try and the aging did the trick…so, with a little patience things should even out a bit. Cheers!

 

[Woodbury419]

FWIW, I did a bock last Feb that was initially way too sweet tasting. After lagering until August I gave it another try and the aging did the trick…so, with a little patience things should even out a bit. Cheers!

That's awesome to hear bro! My slurry from my Munich Helles (S-23) did the trick for my Dopplebock. It's almost finished in the primary already, i'm going to sit it out another week before I secondary it. I'll post an gravity reading when I do