Fine tuning the foam issue....

[HOP-HEAD]

Alright... I've been struggling with the fine tuning of my keezer. Before I go crazy, I wanted to ask how well is to be expected.

Currently, I've got a sixlet of Goose Island Honker's Ale commercial and a cornie of Hop Devil Clone Home Brew. I recently swapped out the Goose Island tap to 10' of 3/16th, because at 10 psi (39 deg), I just couldn't pour a glass that wasn't 3/4 foam. Now it's improved to about 2/3 beer, 1/3 foam.... better after a pour or two, but always at least a 1/4 foam. I'd rather less.....

The home brew is at 12 psi with 5 ft of line. I added 2 of the McMaster Carr mixer knozzles in the short hose thread with a bit of improvement, but the first beer after sitting all night is still all foam and the second is about 1/3 foam.

I guess I'm kind of curious what I'm aiming for.... I mean, how much foam is the norm for the first pour after a day (or more) of sitting?

 

[Sea]

I always get a little more foam on the first pour of the day, but never more than an inch to an inch & a half. maybe the commercial keg is pressurized to a higher level, and needs to be bled down a bit. Your lengths, temp and PSI setting all sound well within the proper range.

 

[HOP-HEAD]

...maybe the commercial keg is pressurized to a higher level, and needs to be bled down a bit.

I thought the same, but I can bleed it off, and then watch the guage work it's way right back up to the set psi of 10-12.

I think the strangest part of both taps, is that I can open them (quickly and fully) and they seem to flow pure beer, then a second or so into the pour, I get a "gurgle" of foam that takes a bit to bleed off... then it works it's way back to beer again, but by then the glass is getting full. Not sure how to stop the "gurgle" or whatever you want to call it.....

 

[HOP-HEAD]

Really? Nothing... only one person can confirm or deny the "more foam on the first pour" or put it into a quantifiable number.... like "I get about an inch after it sits a day"... or "I get a glass of foam after a day".....

 

[Sea]

I would use more line on your homebrew. I use 8-10 feet at the same pressure and temp. It sounds like you have a dual reg. setup. I'd do an experiment with at least one of the beers. Turn the gas off or down to like 2 PSI and drink for a while. If there is that much foam, then there is plenty of built up pressure to pour. As you drink, the foam will decrease, and you can slowly (over days or weeks) increase the pressure until you find a balance. Did you force carb at high pressures, cause that method requires quite a bit of bleeding to get back down to serving pressure. If that's the case, or if you primed with a little too much sugar, and the commercial keg is a bit over pressurized, that could be your problem. I gave up force carbing with high pressure just for this reason, and now carb at serving pressure. Kegging takes a little tweaking to get your system dialed. Good Luck.

 

[HOP-HEAD]

Set and forget at 10-12 psi... no higher pressure force carbing.

 

[Sea]

Well, you got me. The only other thing i can tell you (though it'll sound a little crazy) is that I switched tubing from one that my LHBS carried to some I ordered from one of the online sites because of a taste issue, and it reduced my foam problems a bit. I'd guess it just had a smaller ID due to different manufacturing processes.

 

[Bobby_M]

The first pint foam issue is due to the line being coiled up on top of the keg where it's warmer than the beer. The CO2 comes out of solution and makes foam in the line. I've heard that a small fan running in the fridge helps to keep all the temps equal.

 

[mitch171]

I am having a similar problem, but I coil my tubbing at the bottom of the keg where it is the coldest.

 

[HOP-HEAD]

When I gave the lines a good close inspection this morning, I noticed that after sitting almost 2 days, the first 6 inches of the beer line out of the sanke on the commercial beer and the first 2-3 inches on the hombrew are air. Does this indicate a leak somewhere? I mean, shouldn't the lines stay 100% full if they're remaining pressurized? Or does this indicate warming of the lines? Or I guess... is this normal?

 

[JesseRC]

I'm pretty sure that might be a combination of being overcarbed and lines warmer than the keg. The co2 comes out of solution easily when it meet the warmer lines. If its over carbed, that doesnt help.

 

[HOP-HEAD]

I'm pretty sure that might be a combination of being overcarbed and lines warmer than the keg. The co2 comes out of solution easily when it meet the warmer lines. If its over carbed, that doesnt help.

I vented both and turned them down even further to 8 psi... we'll see how she works for a few days like that. I have a difficult time believing that they're both overcarbed at 10 psi and a serving temp of about 42 deg.

I had them at about 11-12 psi and about 38 deg for awhile a week or so back, but the changes since then have proven to provide little results.

Neither keg has seen more than 12 psi since being placed in the keezer about 3-4 weeks ago.

 

[HOP-HEAD]

I'm on my way to the store to buy a few more cheap thermometers to monitor the temps throughout the keezer... I'm fearfull that the top is just too warm.... even with a pc fan sitting in the bottom blowing upward.

Where does everyone else place their fans?

 

[JesseRC]

My temp differences between top and bottom were like 10deg. I know you said you beer has never seen more than 12 psi in the keezer, but what about before putting in the keezer. Did you force carb and shake?

Another suggestion is: The changes you make take a while to take effect. I can raise my psi by 1, and I notice a slight change a week later. So I would argue that you may still have over carbed beer. Degass it, recarb at proper temp and 10psi. Wait a week and see. Place a fan in the top area aimed at the taps. Quit opening the keezer. Goodluck.

 

[HOP-HEAD]

My temp differences between top and bottom were like 10deg. I know you said you beer has never seen more than 12 psi in the keezer, but what about before putting in the keezer. Did you force carb and shake?

Another suggestion is: The changes you make take a while to take effect. I can raise my psi by 1, and I notice a slight change a week later. So I would argue that you may still have over carbed beer. Degass it, recarb at proper temp and 10psi. Wait a week and see. Place a fan in the top area aimed at the taps. Quit opening the keezer. Goodluck.

As I stated earlier, no high pressure force carbing, and no shaking. Both kegs were placed in the keezer, set at 12 psi and left untouched for about 2 weeks. At that point, I was unsatisfied with the foam and so I vented and turned both down to about 10 psi. Now... a week later, I'm still unsatisfied, so vented again this morning, and lowered the pressure to 8 psi.

I just bought a couple of smaller thermometers, so we'll see how widely the temps range top to bottom.

 

[IrregularPulse]

What is your setup? Tap on a collar inside the fridge, Tower on top of the fridge, tap box on top of the fridge? Sounds like a temperature differential between the bottom of the keg and the faucet.

 

[HOP-HEAD]

Perlick taps out the front of an insulated collar. Lines run along the top and down the back so that they're out of the way when it's opened.... which I'm starting to assume is the issue. I'm guessing the top is too warm where the lines run. The duct fan int he corner of the pic is gone; replaced with a pc fan in the bottom blowing upward.

 

[HOP-HEAD]

Bought myself an inexpensive, smaller indoor/outdoor thermometer. Mounted the base on the back of the collar and the outdoor unit at the bottom. After about 2-3 hours, she's reading 30 deg at the floor and 41 at the top. Tapped a cold one from the homebrew keg and read a chilly 36 deg in the glass.

Also learned something.... a frosty mug out of the freezer filled beautifully.

Now I'm not sure whether it was the cold glass or the lowered pressure or both. Stupid me knows well enough to eliminate the variables in an experiment and now here I added another one.

There's one correct answer no matter how you look at it... I've got a frosty glass of beer in front of me to enjoy. And enjoy I will.

 

[JesseRC]

I always use a chilled glass, not frozen. Pour 1-2 ounces from tap, dispose or drink it. then pour a full pint ....very little foam.

 

[IrregularPulse]

Pour 1-2 ounces from tap, dispose or drink it. then pour a full pint ....very little foam.

This seems extremely common around here. Is it common commercially as well? I guess I don't pay enough attention to the bartender pouring my beer to know if he's pouring any out before filling my glass. They'll also just pour and overflow until they get their pour which I'm definitely not willing to do with my HB. This dumping just seems like waste to me and I have a hard time dealing with it when there should be a way to avoid it. I tend to get foam if my keezer's been sitting a a while without pouring. This is why I'm rebuilding my lid and tap box and removed my collar.

 

[Bobby_M]

In commercial setups, they def lose carbonation in the lines if the beer sits for a while. If you ask for one of the lesser used taps, you'll see the tender run the tap into the drip tray for 2 seconds and then start catching it with your glass. Of course, this isn't necessary on the Coors light tap.