ferulic acid rest gone terribly wrong

[Knkbrand]

I was brewing a hefeweizen yesterday and I love the clove phenols, but not the banana. I read that a ferulic acid rest at around 110 would bring out those clove notes to hefe, so I thought I would try it. I used a very simple recipe, 5 pounds pale ale malt and 5 pounds of white wheat and a pound of rice hulls. Ramped up to 115 so when I mashed in it would drop to around 110. everything was fine for about 5 min, then I noticed the grainfather was not recirculating. I added more rice hulls, but still stuck. I lifted out the grain basket and in the bottom of the grainfather was a bunch of gelatin goo. The heating element had burned it and it was all stuck to the bottom of the grainfather. It was a mess. I don't know if it was the white wheat that did this or what. Made a huge mess and I ended up throwing the batch out. Any ideas as to why everything turned to this gelatinous goo?

 

[thehaze]

I have a Grainfather and I too sometimes get burned residuu on the bottom when boiling, but I can get it off.

It happened due to the wheat malt, which is very protein rich and will kind of make a mess of the mash, but nothing you cannot overcome next time. I would also recommend using a fine mesh over the recirculating top, in order to filter out the grains, which will eventually flow into the kettle, when recirculating.

 

[Knkbrand]

I have a Grainfather and I too sometimes get burned residuu on the bottom when boiling, but I can get it off.

This goo was about 1/4 thick and burned black around the burner. I have never had an issue like this before

It happened due to the wheat malt, which is very protein rich and will kind of make a mess of the mash, but nothing you cannot overcome next time. I would also recommend using a fine mesh over the recirculating top, in order to filter out the grains, which will eventually flow into the kettle, when recirculating.

I use a mesh bag over the bottom plate, but still didn't help. I guess I will not do a furelic acid rest again. When i went to clean the pot, hot water melted the goo that was not burned on, so I think the water was just too cool, but then how do others do a furelic acid rest?

 

[thehaze]

A ferulic acid rest is OK to use ( you can certainly read more about on this forum and others ), but I am not convinced it will help as much as you think. I did a ferulic acid rest once and did not like it. But most hefe strains, will produce lots of clove flavours in the beer.

A lower fermentation temp. will also get you more clove than banana, so you could try brewing a hefe using a yeast everybody knows for its clove flavours and ferment cool, like the lower end of fermentation temps.

 

[Smellyglove]

Use 380 and skip the ferulic acid rest next time. But you should recirculate at a lower rate for the wheats, until you've gotten som conversion. I use 67% wheat, no rice hulls, works as a charm.

 

[Knkbrand]

Use 380 and skip the ferulic acid rest next time. But you should recirculate at a lower rate for the wheats, until you've gotten som conversion. I use 67% wheat, no rice hulls, works as a charm.

380 is the strain i was/am going to use and have used in the past. I still got a lot of banana with 380 and I fermented at 62. This is why I was going to use the acid rest. maybe I will just throw some cloves in the boil

 

[Smellyglove]

Sorry, I was too quick for my own thinking. I've actually only done ferulic acid rests with 380. Gotten highly phenolic stuff with an acid+protein(and also a step-past protein)+lowsacc+highsacc+mashout rests. With standard ale-pitch.

 

[mabrungard]

In my experience, the yeast strain can't create the clove phenolics without the ferulic acid being present in the wort. That rest must be performed in order to produce that effect.

A pound of rice hulls in that grist should have been enough to produce a permeable mash bed. How did you incorporate the hulls into the grist?

 

[Knkbrand]

so this process just came to mind, tell me what you think. I have read that the furelic acids are released from the barely malts more than the wheat malts. What if I dough in just the barely malts in a pot for the furelic acid rest, then in my grainfather dough in at 152 with the wheat and add the barely from the other pot, this would eleminate the gelatinous goo.

 

[Knkbrand]

A pound of rice hulls in that grist should have been enough to produce a permeable mash bed. How did you incorporate the hulls into the grist?

i dough the rice hulls in first and then add the rest of the grains. besides the stuck sparge, the gelatinous goo was all clumpy in the bottom of my grainfather. Is this normal?

 

[Smellyglove]

In my experience, the yeast strain can't create the clove phenolics without the ferulic acid being present in the wort. That rest must be performed in order to produce that effect.

A pound of rice hulls in that grist should have been enough to produce a permeable mash bed. How did you incorporate the hulls into the grist?

4-VG is something you'll find in husks of barley malt. So it's there even if you dont' perform an a ferrulic acid rest. But a ferulic acid rest releases more of this precursor into the wort. More barley in the grist gives more 4-vg. And then it's the ability for the different strains to convert this into phenols.

They key to get the phenols right is to lower the amount of esters. The amount phenols are harder to manipulate than the esters, so often it's about how much the esters masks the phenols.

 

[Lefou]

Suggest you read Chris Colby's series of articles on brewing Hefeweizen. It covers multiple aspects of the style and explains a lot in depth concerning the ferulic rest. Wheat is loaded with gluten and the best way to combat this from turning to a gelatinous mass is to adjust your mash.
I do this by using a 2qt/lb water-to-grain ratio and turning my highly diastatic wheat to near flour. This will dilute your wheat, speed conversion, and reduce coagulation of glutens in the mash. Another method would be to do reduce your wheat levels slightly.
Adjust your sparge water accordingly.

I'm not familiar with Grainfather's mashing process. Is there some sort of mixing or stirring process active during the mash? Sounds like there's some needed .....

 

[Knkbrand]

I'm not familiar with Grainfather's mashing process. Is there some sort of mixing or stirring process active during the mash? Sounds like there's some needed .....

The grainfather is like a brew in a bag system. during the mash, the wort strains through the mash and into the bottom of the grainfather, (outside the bag). As the temp decreases, the wort in the bottom of the grainfather is heated and pumped to the top of the grain bed. The problem was that the gelatinous goo was being burnt on the heater because it was just sitting on it. When i realized what was happening it was too late, there was a lot of scalded and burnt matter. My mash was a little thick because I kept adding rice hulls to help the filter, but I guess this just made it worse. If I would have known, I could have lifted the basket off, heated the stuff to liquefy it again and then pump it back into the mash. Live and learn i guess.

 

[Lefou]

Had to ask about Grainfather because my setup is different.
When doing wheat beers with almost half the grist in malted wheat, I got some seriously gummy mashes that were headaches to lauter, so I changed up the recipe and method a bit.
I reduced the wheat, ground it to flour, and diluted the mash to 2qt/lb grain. Second, I started my mash at 110-113F for 30 minutes, then increased the temperature to 145F for 30 minutes. Stirred well in between steps.
Final step was at 152F for 30 minutes, mash out, lauter until clear, then collect wort for the boil.
Long process, I know, but it makes for some very fermentable worts with the right malts. One hefe yeast that produces clove in spades is the WLP351 strain when under-pitched and fermented between 60F-65F. I like my German-style wheats balanced more, so I swore off that yeast for 300 and 320.

 

[mabrungard]

I have read that the furelic acids are released from the barely malts more than the wheat malts.

Yep, I read a research article that stated that. I was surprised, but I guess its possible. Barley produces more ferulic acid during that rest than wheat. If searching for more clovey notes in your hefe, REDUCE the wheat percentage.

 

[SoCal-Doug]

I have a 50/50 (roughly 10 pounds of german pils and wheat) hef recipe that I brew a lot. I use pound of rice hulls and recirculate the chugger pump full open through the acid rest (112/20min) protein rest (122/15min) and sacc rest (152/60min) without any problems. I'm on a 3-vessel HERMS system. I prefer WY3068 but I like a bit of banana balance with the clove so I ferment it a bit warmer than some people.

I don't know anything about a grainfather, but I would (1) make sure your mill gap is good and (2) mix the dry grains and hulls thoroughly before mashing in (3) at mash in stir well. Keep those hulls well distributed.

 

[Knkbrand]

Well my second attempt went much better today. I realized what the issue was. A friend of mine had visited Chicago and brought me back some beer to sample so I was drinking commercial versions of zombie dust and two brothers domain dupage, so I wasn't drinking homebrew while making a Home Brew, so that was the problem.

In all seriousness I went through the acid rest in a separate pot using only barely, then brought that up to mash temperature and then mashed in with the wheat....much better attempt

I wish I had taken a picture of it but I was too mad yesterday. Looked like potato soup with dumplings in it.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Before you get to conversion temperature range, a high wheat % mash will be quite gummy which isn't good for elements (sticking and possibly burning). If I'm doing an acid rest on my current RIM system, I mash in quite thick and DON'T recirculate or heat until the end of the rest - I then add a boiling water infusion (even if it means a thinner than normal mash) to conversion temperatures, THEN start recirculating and heating. HERM systems (which I used previously) don't have this issue.

 

[Knkbrand]

So I tasted my 2nd attempt, and I am very pleased. Lots of cloves. My best hefe yet. So I guess it was worth the failed first attempt. Very yummy and full of cloves

 

[mabrungard]

If I'm doing an acid rest on my current RIM system, I mash in quite thick and DON'T recirculate or heat until the end of the rest - I then add a boiling water infusion (even if it means a thinner than normal mash) to conversion temperatures, THEN start recirculating and heating. HERM systems (which I used previously) don't have this issue.

In my original RIMS, it used 120v power and it didn't have the wattage to step up the wort temperature in a single pass. So I used to use the boiling water infusion to more quickly step the mash temp up. It worked well. Start thick and plan for the thinning.

Now that I have a 240v RIMS, I have no problem in stepping the wort up by the 30F+ temp step. No need to mess with a boiling water addition. I don't agree that RIMS is at a disadvantage to HERMS when performing a step. Either one can overheat the wort if the system isn't set up and operated correctly. I do concede that RIMS does still have the potential to scorch, but not if operated correctly.

 

[Smellyglove]

I've realized that bottle carbonation is as important as the primary carbonation for getting the profile you're after. It's about the amount of yeast, and temperature.