Fermentis S-04 Wierd Mineral Taste

[MrBlackrock]

Briefly,

I have been brewing for about 6 months.

Over the course of those 6 months i went from total newby to All Grain brewing.

I am currently at 21 batches (5 gals) under the hood.

I have noticed a really wierd Mineral taste coming from all the beers i have made with the S-04 (Nut Brown Ale, Chocolate Stout and Irish Red).

All 3 leave a wierd mineral salty after taste.

Now i have posted on my local facebook group about this and got a couple of answers regarde contamination etc...

Thing is, of all my batches, including my first boondock spaghetti sauce kettle batch never had any issues.

I note this ONLY from the 3 beers made with the S-04.

After a bit of research, it seems that this can be comon upon certain people that will detect this taste VS others that wont?

So am I crazy ??? Any of you guys/gals had this issue ?

Also noticed that it seems to overcarb like hell.

Thanks alot.

 

[day_trippr]

First, S04 is a beast. If you don't keep it under solid temperature control during primary it can run amok, drop the beer fifty points in 24 hours, and leave an ester-fest behind.

Otherwise, I use S04 at least a handful of brews each year (mostly ESBs and stouts) and I've actually not found an off-note to speak of. It's a trusted strain here.

Which, I guess, puts me in the cohort that "won't" detect the mineral character...

Cheers!

 

[MrBlackrock]

First, S04 is a beast. If you don't keep it under solid temperature control during primary it can run amok, drop the beer fifty points in 24 hours, and leave an ester-fest behind.

Otherwise, I use S04 at least a handful of brews each year (mostly ESBs and stouts) and I've actually not found an off-note to speak of. It's a trusted strain here.

Which, I guess, puts me in the cohort that "won't" detect the mineral character...

Cheers!

I ferment in my basement. Room température was at 20 for all 3 beers. Too high?

 

[rhys333]

All three of the beers you mention are on the darker side in terms of SRM. Are you modifying your brewing water with salts in any way? It has me wondering if you're getting off-flavors either from pH issues, or over-salting your water.

 

[day_trippr]

I ferment in my basement. Room température was at 20 for all 3 beers. Too high?

No, I don't think so. That's just two degrees higher than I start S04, then I let the wort drift up to 20°C/68°F 3 days in.

I do recall folks with some S04-issues over the years.
A bit of Google-Fu will lead you to the pertinent HBT threads...

Cheers!

 

[MrBlackrock]

No, I don't think so. That's just two degrees higher than I start S04, then I let the wort drift up to 20°C/68°F 3 days in.

I do recall folks with some S04-issues over the years.
A bit of Google-Fu will lead you to the pertinent HBT threads...

Cheers!

Wow. Alot of posts on this makes me feel better. Seems i am not the only one.


http://www.bear-flavored.com/2012/12/off-flavor-or-infection-diagnosing-my.html?m=1

 

[Hammy71]

Yeah, I hate 04. Some of us can taste the 'twang', while some can not. Hell, I've given whole kegs of beer to friends who tell me I'm crazy. Sounds like you are one of us that can't handle English Style yeast. Wasn't always that way with me, but it came on suddenly years ago. I wouldn't make a beer for Stalin at this point with that crap. LOL

 

[MrBlackrock]

Yeah, I hate 04. Some of us can taste the 'twang', while some can not. Hell, I've given whole kegs of beer to friends who tell me I'm crazy. Sounds like you are one of us that can't handle English Style yeast. Wasn't always that way with me, but it came on suddenly years ago. I wouldn't make a beer for Stalin at this point with that crap. LOL

Yeah well good to know i am not insane. Just dumped 2 batches over this crap (Nut Brown Ale and an Irish Red..)

Hurts the feels...

 

[MrBlackrock]

Yeah, I hate 04. Some of us can taste the 'twang', while some can not. Hell, I've given whole kegs of beer to friends who tell me I'm crazy. Sounds like you are one of us that can't handle English Style yeast. Wasn't always that way with me, but it came on suddenly years ago. I wouldn't make a beer for Stalin at this point with that crap. LOL

What do you use instead as a dry yeast. Dont always like spending double on liquid yeasts, specially for a simple beer.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Yeah, I hate 04. Some of us can taste the 'twang', while some can not. Hell, I've given whole kegs of beer to friends who tell me I'm crazy. Sounds like you are one of us that can't handle English Style yeast. Wasn't always that way with me, but it came on suddenly years ago. I wouldn't make a beer for Stalin at this point with that crap. LOL

Don't blame english style yeast as a group. I get the twang you're talking about and don't like S-04, but I love other English yeasts, especially WY1968.

 

[mongoose33]

I ferment in my basement. Room température was at 20 for all 3 beers. Too high?

No, I don't think so. That's just two degrees higher than I start S04, then I let the wort drift up to 20°C/68°F 3 days in.

I do recall folks with some S04-issues over the years.
A bit of Google-Fu will lead you to the pertinent HBT threads...

Cheers!

I think that's part of the problem right there. Fermenting at ambient of 20/68 will not result in a wort temp of 20/68, because yeast is exothermic.

Rather, it'll be higher--5-10 degrees higher. Maybe more with S-04 given how fast it works. The Fermentis site indicates this as the fermentation temps for S-04:

12-25°C (53.6-77°F) ideally 15-20°C (59-68°F)

That looks like OP is at the limit of the "ideal" temperature, but I'll bet he's exceeding the 25/77 listed as the top of the range.

I use S-04 a fair amount. I have a beer going right now where I pitched the (rehydrated) yeast at noon on Saturday; by Tuesday evening the Krausen had fallen and activity had slowed. It didn't actively start fermenting until after midnight Saturday, so this was in under 2 1/2 days that it worked.

I controlled my ferm temperatures in a fermentation chamber at 63 degrees, so imagine how much faster that yeast would have worked at 68 (or more likely, the upper 70s or higher).

I don't know that this is the source of the off-flavor, all I know is that I'd never toss S-04 into 20/68-degree wort and just let it go.

 

[day_trippr]

Wow, ^spot on^. I totally missed the "ambient" thing and assumed that was the wort temperature.
My ferm chamber uses direct-reading probes for control, not a chamber probe.
As I said, S04 is a beast and leaves an ester-fest behind when run hot.

Cheers!

 

[TrustyOlJohnson]

Ive heard of so many people using S-04 with success, I used it once, fermented at 62/17. It was slow and left weird flavors for me.. never used it again. I'm a Nottingham brewer when I want to use a dry yeast for an ale

 

[ba-brewer]

I had a couple beers that had a weird mineral aftertaste, sort of chalky. Took the second one down to the LHBS and he said it was fine maybe had a slight british character like the water was burtonized. It was my normal low mineral water so that was puzzling.

A few months later I made a bitters which did not have that taste but was lacking on hops character so I through some fuggles into the keg. Within hours that beer started getting the chalky taste so I pulled the hops. The flavor went away with the hops removed.

I did some searching on the web and found other had said they had issues with noble hops coming off minerally if not used in soft water.

The other hops used in the beer I had problems with were bullion and brewers gold which are not noble hops so that did not match. The place i got those two hops from pull from a bulk box of hops and repackage to order. Because those are all sort of uncommon hops I am thinking it might of been caused by old oxidized hops. I now try to buy hops from places that specify the harvest year of their hops and have not run into the problem again.

 

[MrBlackrock]

Ended up dumping 3 batches over this. Damn shame.

All fermented at room temp of 20c..does not seem exagerated.

Yeast is too capricious for me hehe.

Will have to make due with Lallemand for dry products

 

[Minky]

I have never tried S-04, but I used US-05 for several years for just about everything. Then, all of a sudden, it began tasting really funky to me. I can't describe it, but I could even smell it from across the room. It took awhile to figure out what was causing it since I had used it for so long with no problem. I can't stand it now.

I'm wondering if it's possible that yeast mutations are occurring in Fermentis yeasts, or they are producing inconsistent batches somehow.

 

[mongoose33]

Ended up dumping 3 batches over this. Damn shame.

All fermented at room temp of 20c..does not seem exagerated.

I don't think you can conclude this. Unless you are directly measuring the temperature of the wort, it is fermenting higher than your ambient temperature....and perhaps much higher.

If you don't know the temperature of the WORT then you don't know it. Ambient isn't a substitute for that.

Before I had my ferm chamber, I fermented in my basement, ambient about 64 degrees. The fermometer on the side of the fermenter would show about 69 dgrees, which is how much the exothermic action of the yeast raised the temperature above ambient. I used a swamp cooler then that dropped the temp back down to 64 degrees, which is right where I wanted it.

You're starting at about what mine ended up with, and then the exothermic action of the yeast is taking it higher yet. S-04 is a beast, so I'll bet it's really going to town on you, and producing more heat than that. You really cannot draw any conclusions about S-04 until and unless you decide to control fermentation temperature a lot lower than you're doing.

One of the biggest leaps in brew quality new brewers can make is fermentation control. If you don't control it, you really can't complain about what you get (exception: beers designed to be fermented at high temps, for which yeast like S-04 is not.

If I were you, I would not conclude anything about this yeast until you start fermenting it at more moderate temps.

 

[yugga]

I hate s-04!!! I will never use it again. My experience with it is the same as the O.P. For my palate, it makes beer taste like old school cheap homebrew. The last time I used it I brewed an English mild with temperature control. I could barely choke it down but my wife thought it was good. There must be something about this yeast that some people detect and others don't.

 

[Mainer]

I get something similar out of an Australian Sparkling Ale I made with Cooper's Dry Yeast, but that also used Pride of Ringwood hops, which are said to produce a slight metallic edge that is characteristic of the style, so I had just chalked it up to that.

 

[Ashevillain]

I have had similar experiences with s-04. I think temp on several english yeast strains needs to be on the low end of the spectrum. Honestly I feel a bit cursed as I've never brewed a bitter or mild i've enjoyed. Its always something, my last batch was a mild and the day after I put it in the ferm chamber the fridge died and left me with a estery mess. Coincidence? Two of my favorite styles also such a shame.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

used Pride of Ringwood hops, which are said to produce a slight metallic edge

The metallic edge from PoR hops is quite noticeable - it's a flavour that many Aussie lager drinkers think of as 'beer'. BTW, Coopers dry yeast is quite neutral. If you make a sparkling ale again, try using dregs from a bottle of Coopers pale or sparkling ale, or WLP009. The yeast strain is vital for the fruitiness.

 

[MrBlackrock]

I don't think you can conclude this. Unless you are directly measuring the temperature of the wort, it is fermenting higher than your ambient temperature....and perhaps much higher.

If you don't know the temperature of the WORT then you don't know it. Ambient isn't a substitute for that.

Before I had my ferm chamber, I fermented in my basement, ambient about 64 degrees. The fermometer on the side of the fermenter would show about 69 dgrees, which is how much the exothermic action of the yeast raised the temperature above ambient. I used a swamp cooler then that dropped the temp back down to 64 degrees, which is right where I wanted it.

You're starting at about what mine ended up with, and then the exothermic action of the yeast is taking it higher yet. S-04 is a beast, so I'll bet it's really going to town on you, and producing more heat than that. You really cannot draw any conclusions about S-04 until and unless you decide to control fermentation temperature a lot lower than you're doing.

One of the biggest leaps in brew quality new brewers can make is fermentation control. If you don't control it, you really can't complain about what you get (exception: beers designed to be fermented at high temps, for which yeast like S-04 is not.

If I were you, I would not conclude anything about this yeast until you start fermenting it at more moderate temps.

Had a thermometer in a fast ferment of one of the brews. Did not scale higher than 21.

 

[mongoose33]

Had a thermometer in a fast ferment of one of the brews. Did not scale higher than 21.

So your ambient is 20 and the highest it went was 21? That seems hard to believe.

 

[Mainer]

The metallic edge from PoR hops is quite noticeable - it's a flavour that many Aussie lager drinkers think of as 'beer'. BTW, Coopers dry yeast is quite neutral. If you make a sparkling ale again, try using dregs from a bottle of Coopers pale or sparkling ale, or WLP009. The yeast strain is vital for the fruitiness.

Yeah, I've heard that the degree of metallic edge can vary a lot based on handling. It's pretty fresh right now, and I imagine it'll come to the fore as the beer ages.
I did hear that I ought to use dregs, but Cooper's doesn't have distribution in Maine. The nearest place I could find that had it was a six-hour drive away, in Connecticut. My LHBS and his supplier were temporarily out of 009, so I settled for the Cooper's Dry.
Sometimes you do what you gotta do. ¯\_(&#12484_/¯

 

[MrBlackrock]

So your ambient is 20 and the highest it went was 21? That seems hard to believe.

Could've spiked while i was not home but i cheked it daily !

Oh Well... I am not equiped right now for temp control, i guess i will try again when i am.

Still plenty of other yeast's out there

 

[Rhaop]

I've gotten a twang in all my s-04 and nottingham beers, I don't use them anymore and i'm too much a puss pot to try some liquid english ale yeasts because it's in my head now that i might not like the beers lol

 

[MrBlackrock]

I've gotten a twang in all my s-04 and nottingham beers, I don't use them anymore and i'm too much a puss pot to try some liquid english ale yeasts because it's in my head now that i might not like the beers lol

Hmm used Nottingham a couple times never had this one

 

[Rhaop]

Hmm used Nottingham a couple times never had this one

Yeah I definitely tasted the twang in my nottingham beers first which is why i tried the s-04 but no matter the fermentation temp i get that weird ester or flavor, i even damn near lagered it at 58* F for a week before slowly raising temps and still I could detect it, could be just in my head

I need to try out a few liquid yeasts but i also don't bash either of the dry yeasts everyone should try them at least once

 

[mongoose33]

Yeah I definitely tasted the twang in my nottingham beers first which is why i tried the s-04 but no matter the fermentation temp i get that weird ester or flavor, i even damn near lagered it at 58* F for a week before slowly raising temps and still I could detect it, could be just in my head

I need to try out a few liquid yeasts but i also don't bash either of the dry yeasts everyone should try them at least once

I've used S-04 a lot, like it a lot. It's why, initially, it was hard for me to accept that anyone is finding a weird taste to it. I've had great luck with it.

And yet....why not? People like what they like. I don't like Belgians. I think there are few tastes more offputting than that of a Belgian. That's my view.

So why can't you just dislike what S-04 does? Could be, you just don't like it, as I dislike Belgians.

 

[Rhaop]

I've used S-04 a lot, like it a lot. It's why, initially, it was hard for me to accept that anyone is finding a weird taste to it. I've had great luck with it.

And yet....why not? People like what they like. I don't like Belgians. I think there are few tastes more offputting than that of a Belgian. That's my view.

So why can't you just dislike what S-04 does? Could be, you just don't like it, as I dislike Belgians.

Yup s-05 is my goto house yeast for cranking out party beers it ferments super clean for me at any temp sub *70 F I've thrown at it, but if you search you'll find plenty of people who can't stand it's performance who am i to say they are wrong?

 

[MrBlackrock]

Yup s-05 is my goto house yeast for cranking out party beers it ferments super clean for me at any temp sub *70 F I've thrown at it, but if you search you'll find plenty of people who can't stand it's performance who am i to say they are wrong?

As stated, it might be that the temp got too high, but it seems even people with temp control had this issue.

Like i said, i think not everyone can taste it...But for me i just cant drink it..Even the smell seems odd.

 

[Hammy71]

What do you use instead as a dry yeast. Dont always like spending double on liquid yeasts, specially for a simple beer.

I still use dry yeast on 90% of my beers. Just it's 05 instead of 04

 

[Hammy71]

Don't blame english style yeast as a group. I get the twang you're talking about and don't like S-04, but I love other English yeasts, especially WY1968.

May be true....but I used to love WLP 002. Now I get the twang from it as well. Probably in my head....but it's there none the less