Fermenting lagers with ale yeast at true ale temps??

[fergy89406]

I'm hoping I can find some good replies to this thread. From what I've been able to find on this subject... a lot of what I read is speculation and not true attempts.

I'm wanting to find if it is possible, in any way shape or form, with whatever yeast out there... to make an ale that's as close as possible to a lager with ale yeast at true ale temps (not a pseudo-lager). True temps as in not in the lower range... but in the higher ale ranges... 65-70F degrees.

Anytime I've searched this topic... I've only found people fermenting in the low 60F range, and doing a lagering phase.

I'm wanting to forgo the the actual lagering phase, and treating it just as I would an ale. Now... with bottle conditioning, I would stick it in the fridge for a month or two... but in the actual fermentation process, to go at it as usual.

And please, I know what I should expect on this kind of experiment.. but I'm not looking for speculations here. I want true fact... honest, tried and true attempts by people (if there are any), as well as very clean, low to non existent ester producing yeast, that let the maltiness shine through. I've found a couple... and Wyeast Headwaters Ale is on the top of my list. Thank you for any help you can provide.

 

[Airborneguy]

Kolsch yeast at 65 will give you a pretty clean, lager-ish beer. That's about as "tried and true" as I can give you as I don't believe too many other yeasts are going to replicate lager characteristics at those temperatures. You can get close enough for someone with an iffy palate or who is not very familiar with beer, but since I've started brewing lagers regularly, I have to say that its fairly easy to pick up the differences.

 

[wailingguitar]

I have used Wyeast 1007 for a Munich Helles and was very happy with the taste, I also used Wyeast Danish Lager for an identical beer brewed at the same time and was happy with the results, though slightly less so. The Danish Lager made a decent beer at ale temps.

Wyeast 2112 California Lager does nicely at ale temps

Any clean fermenting ale yeast will give acceptable results... even some not so clean yeasts. I recently did some Helles and a Marzen with Safale S04 and the beers were very nice. Not as crisp and clean as the real thing, but very good beers none the less.

 

[fergy89406]

Thanks guys! I knew there were people out there that had to have tried it... but couldn't find you! lol

As a fairly new(ish) brewer, I have close to 12 beers under my belt so far. I took the transition to all-grain via BIAB, and ever since then, I've just been finding utter lambasting on the part of "traditionalists" who will shut down any idea or thought that is contrary to how they feel things should be done.

When I first set out to do this, I was hitting wall after wall. A lot of negativity was found... even RDWHAHB couldn't help out. I decided to leave another forum just for the fact that I was being verbally accosted by people who were strict tradicionales. Being told things like BIAB isn't really beer making. You can't do things any other way but how it's been done. One of my first affronts to tradition came in the making of Makgeolli... I didn't use the traditional method. I brought the method to the 21st century... using nothing but wine yeast, amylase enzyme, DME and rice. Everyone told me it couldn't be done. I did it, though... I made Makgeolli that was on par with a lot of commercial examples.

And so the endeavor to create a lager-like ale, at normal ale temps, has been my great white buffalo. But... I will partake the endeavor this year!!

 

[scottland]

Basically you'll have an ale, not a lager. The only way to get lager-like qualities is to ferment at lager temps aka 50-55F, and you usually need a lager yeast to do that.

 

[Airborneguy]

Anyone who gets like that is plain stupid, and not worth bothering with.

Personally, I do think its a "fruitless" )) endeavor, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try. I'm big on lagers, so because of that its fairly easy for me to pick out pseudo-lagers made with ale yeast, but that doesn't mean it won't work for you or for others, which is exactly why you should try it!

Kolsch will definitely get you close, but I still recomend keeping it as low as you can for best results.

 

[boswell]

I think it depends by what 'lager' characteristics you are going for. The lager category is very wide and deep, so I'd identify what characteristics you specifically interested in replicating. The clarity? That's a flocc'ing yeast, maybe secondary and cold crash. The sulphur-y dryness (that make sense?) The cal common yeast is the ticket. I'm no expert, but give the board some specific characteristics/styles, and I am positive there is someone on here who has tried it sucessfully. This place astounds me on the daily with the knowledge base.

 

[fergy89406]

Bos... the quality that attracts me to lagers... especially maibocks is (1) the maltiness, and (2) the clean malty taste. Actually, that second part goes for all lagers (with mass-produced big three yellow piss being the exception).

I guess... my overall goal, while being extremely lofty and presumably unattainable, is to hand the beer over to a lagerhead and having him/her being unable to decide or know whether it's a lager or an ale.. if that makes sense.

I'm no dummy... I know that I can't make a lager with an ale yeast. But I wanna get as humanly and scientifically close to a lager as I can, but still having it be an ale.

 

[fergy89406]

And yeah Airborne... I've never been good with those kinds of people... and the more distance I can put between me and them is good.

Course, my problem is that I've never been good at being told I can't do something. Not that I shouldn't do it, just that the thing I want to do can't be done. lol

 

[Airborneguy]

Other posters have admitted to entering lager categories in competitions with ale yeast-fermented beers. Let us know what happens! I would love it if someone could fool me with one.

 

[fergy89406]

Challenge accepted! Hahaha

 

[Gduck]

I've had good luck with White Labs WLP 080. It's their cream ale blend. Fermented a couple of them out probably close to 70 and there were very low perceptable esters from the fermentation. It was a fairly light cream ale I made so the esters came through a bit more clearly, but it was fairly clean. Though I would say it liked that "crisp" flavor that is often associated with lighter style lagers.

 

[Zamial]

I can not confirm this but I have read about people doing room temp lagers during "closed pressurized fermentation" (search for it if interested). While I have NOT attempted this yet, I did just make a Kolsh this way and will be bottling it this week. I also have plans to try a room temp CPF lager but that is about as far as I have gotten.

Also as a friendly heads up, lagers are some of the hardest beers to make. ANY imperfection will stand out. I am not saying "You can not do this" more like "it may take you a long time to hammer out a good working recipe."

I even tried a "Pilsen Ale" which as you may have guessed was a Pilsner recipe with ale yeast. I think I used US-05, I do not recall. Myself and others noted the "fruityness" that was from the ale yeast. Good luck with your brew, I am VERY interested in the results as I have a few people that are huge lager fans.

 

[fergy89406]

Ok... I know it's been a while, but today's the day that I will be putting my Maibock with ale yeast at ale temps experiment into effect.

10lbs. of Pale Ale malt, 5lbs. of Munich II, 5oz of C40. Will be using Northern Brewer as the bittering, and Herbrucker as aroma/flavor (1oz each).

Mash @155 for 75min, boil for 90min, and using the White Labs Platinum Australian Ale yeast. According to White Labs' profile of the yeast, I think it's going to give me exactly what I'm shooting for.... very clean, little to no esters, malt enhancing, etc. etc.

Will check back in 6 (or so) weeks for a verdict!

 

[Denny]

Bos... the quality that attracts me to lagers... especially maibocks is (1) the maltiness, and (2) the clean malty taste. Actually, that second part goes for all lagers (with mass-produced big three yellow piss being the exception).

I guess... my overall goal, while being extremely lofty and presumably unattainable, is to hand the beer over to a lagerhead and having him/her being unable to decide or know whether it's a lager or an ale.. if that makes sense.

I'm no dummy... I know that I can't make a lager with an ale yeast. But I wanna get as humanly and scientifically close to a lager as I can, but still having it be an ale.

So why not just use a clean ale yeast like 1007 or 1056? What do you hope to get with a high temp lager yeast fermentation that you wouldn't get with one of those?

 

[fergy89406]

While those two are clean... they're not "clean" clean. Those two either still produce a noticeable amount of esters or fruitiness at normal ale temps.

Both qualities are not acceptable for lagers, and in my need, are not acceptable for my experiment. The whole basis of what I'm doing is to try to create something very close to the style of beer without the actual process (of lagering).

Call me a glutton for punishment, but I have faith it can be done. The yeast strain I chose still produces esters, but are close to a bready experience, as opposed to fruity or spicy aspect.

 

[kaconga]

Rogue dead guy ale is a maibock style ale. According to rogue they ferment it at 60 degrees. I personally don't think it is lagerish enough for what you are trying but it might give you some insight.

 

[Mongrel]

Bos... the quality that attracts me to lagers... especially maibocks is (1) the maltiness, and (2) the clean malty taste. Actually, that second part goes for all lagers (with mass-produced big three yellow piss being the exception).

I guess... my overall goal, while being extremely lofty and presumably unattainable, is to hand the beer over to a lagerhead and having him/her being unable to decide or know whether it's a lager or an ale.. if that makes sense.

I'm no dummy... I know that I can't make a lager with an ale yeast. But I wanna get as humanly and scientifically close to a lager as I can, but still having it be an ale.

Give Wyeast's Scottish Ale 1728 a try. It's good from 55-75, but the colder you go, the more malty/less fruity it will be, and if you can give it a lagering period, you won't be disappointed. It still won't be a lager, but you'll get a clean, malty thing of beauty.

 

[tgmartin000]

I did jamils classic American pils with wyeast California common. It turned out great! Not as crisp as a true lager, but pretty close. I fermented in the mid 60's, and got my fg down to 1.010. It maybe dried out a little too much, but overall a decent beer for someone who can't lager.

 

[PapsD]

I've done a couple of American pilsners with whitelabs San Francisco lager yeast. Both turned out great even when fermented in the mid to high 60's. Both needed some cold conditioning time in the kegerator though; a couple of weeks each.

Today I'm brewing an oktoberfest/marzen with the same yeast. I know some may not agree with it but i'll be pitching onto a yeast cake from a California Common. I personally think beer tastes cleaner this way.

 

[tonyolympia]

Coming up on my brewing schedule is to try a Premium American Lager with Wyeast 2112, California Lager.

On Brew Strong, I once heard John Palmer ask Jamil Zainasheff what styles he would ferment with 2112. Jamil said California Common and Robust Porter. No other styles, and scarcely any more discussion. Jamil compared making any other lager with 2112 to making a Saison with S-04, or something equally outlandish. It was pretty clear that Palmer had a different opinion, but he just said "Hmm."

2112 is one of four yeasts the manufacturer recommends for Premium American Lager! Granted, it's the fourth choice, but I'll go out on a a limb and say that it would make a better lager than a Saison made with S-04.

 

[Denny]

While those two are clean... they're not "clean" clean. Those two either still produce a noticeable amount of esters or fruitiness at normal ale temps.

Both qualities are not acceptable for lagers, and in my need, are not acceptable for my experiment. The whole basis of what I'm doing is to try to create something very close to the style of beer without the actual process (of lagering).

Call me a glutton for punishment, but I have faith it can be done. The yeast strain I chose still produces esters, but are close to a bready experience, as opposed to fruity or spicy aspect.

1007 not clean enough????? Wow, I'm amazed. I've made award winning pseudo lagers with it. I don't think you'll ever be able to get what you want without lagering to some degree.

 

[JonM]

Another vote for Kolsch yeast. And have you looked into Cry Havoc?

 

[VladOfTrub]

Decoction mash it. Acid rest, protein rest, sacc. rest. Here's a simple recipe I have brewed many times over, with Ale or Pils yeast, using tri-decoction. 23 pounds Dingman Pils malt, 1.5 pounds carafoam, 1.5 pounds sauermalz. 12 oz. Czech Saaz pellets... Fly sparge. Run off 14 gallons. Boil for a couple hours. Run wort through a hopback packed with 4 oz. German Hallertau leaf. Cool ASAP to 60. Kolsch starter. After ferment, chill. Filter through a plate. Carb it up. It's an Ale made with a Lager brewing procedure, except for the ferment temp.

 

[fergy89406]

Jon.. I have looked at the Cry Havoc yeast, and it's definitely on my list of yeasts to try.

Denny... it comes down to what clean can be defined. For me, clean comes with a very neutral, non-estery type yeast. While 1007 and 1056 are clean in most sense, they do still produce either fruity flavors or distinct esters, unless fermented at the lower end of their range.

The whole idea for my experiment is to get as close as possible at normal ale temp range (67-70deg) to create something as close as possible to a maibock, without the use of lager yeast or fermenting at the lower end.

As I stated before, it's not that I discount other ideas or recommendations. But I don't want speculation or theory, or regurgitated notions from what they've been told or read or heard.

Am I going to create a lager with ale yeast? No... I'm not dumb. It's impossible... I know that. But can I create an ale that is very close to what a maibock can be without lower-end fermentation with a clean, non-estery, non-flavor producing yeast? That's the gist of what I'm striving for.

As we all know, as homebrewers.. well, brewers in general, the task of creating beer is in our blood. We do it, not as a necessity (per say), not as a habit.... but as a calling. We strive to create, to blossom, to blow our own minds at what we can achieve. For me, it's always been to slightly step out of the boundaries, to think a little bit outside the box.... to separate what actually "CAN" be done and sort through everything that others still tout as impossible or not recommended.

Will I make a lager with an ale yeast? No.

Can I get as close as I possibly can to the lager equivalent, without fermenting on the colder side, with a extremely clean ale yeast? Maybe. Or maybe not.

 

[stjackson]

Check out Brewing TV Episode 53. They do a whole show on lager workarounds. There might be something useful for you in there.

 

[Denny]

Denny... it comes down to what clean can be defined. For me, clean comes with a very neutral, non-estery type yeast. While 1007 and 1056 are clean in most sense, they do still produce either fruity flavors or distinct esters, unless fermented at the lower end of their range.

The whole idea for my experiment is to get as close as possible at normal ale temp range (67-70deg) to create something as close as possible to a maibock, without the use of lager yeast or fermenting at the lower end.

As I stated before, it's not that I discount other ideas or recommendations. But I don't want speculation or theory, or regurgitated notions from what they've been told or read or heard.

Dude, I AM giving you the benefit of my direct experience, not speculation or what I've read. For what you want, 1007 will be far cleaner than any other yeast I'm aware of.

 

[watersr]

It sounds like you are asking for an objective measure of a subjective quality, that being a clean, malty, relatively ester free flavor profile from an ale yeast brewed at warmer ale temperatures. There cannot be a scientific method of choosing the one magical yeast for your purpose because a flavor profile is strictly a matter of interpretation. What one person calls a super clean flavor may be far from what you want to attain so the problem becomes no one can answer your question because they can't tell you what the finished beer is going to taste like to YOU. You have been given a variety of likely candidates and some useful techniques to produce a beer like the one you describe. The only true way forward is to brew a batch, split it into separate fermentors and try a few yeasts till you find the one that gets you where you want to go.

 

[Denny]

It sounds like you are asking for an objective measure of a subjective quality, that being a clean, malty, relatively ester free flavor profile from an ale yeast brewed at warmer ale temperatures. There cannot be a scientific method of choosing the one magical yeast for your purpose because a flavor profile is strictly a matter of interpretation. What one person calls a super clean flavor may be far from what you want to attain so the problem becomes no one can answer your question because they can't tell you what the finished beer is going to taste like to YOU. You have been given a variety of likely candidates and some useful techniques to produce a beer like the one you describe. The only true way forward is to brew a batch, split it into separate fermentors and try a few yeasts till you find the one that gets you where you want to go.

A sensible, well thought out answer!

 

[fergy89406]

I agree that what I'm asking is very subjective in its core aspect. But there is also a very objective measure attached. And yes... a large, split batch would definitely be the way to go... but that's not the method I've chosen.

And Denny... I do appreciate your feedback and experience, as well as your input.... as well as everyone else's input. And I have tried 1007 before. It's a very good yeast, but for my palette, it still comes off with a fruity taste, and it's flocculation (without cold crashing or long time in cold storage post-bottle) is not acceptable to me. Again... two things I'm not looking for.

There is a method to my madness here. I'm not purposely throwing out whatever anyone says. And Watersr.... yeah... I have been given a lot of good candidates on the yeast.... but also attached to a process that I'm not wanting..... cold(er) ale fermentation. Or just for the mere fact that those yeasts are too attentive. Maibock's aren't dry, therefore I do not want to use a yeast that delivers crisp, dry beers.

It could be as if I'm looking for some "magical" strain. That very well may be. It could turn out to be my Great White Buffalo. But for the level of experiment that I've laid out for myself.... with a very strict outline to a base style, to achieve it within the parameters I've chosen, I'm fairly certain there is a yeast out there (again.... I've been given great choices, but they are not right within my given parameters). More than not, the yeast I'm looking for will not be a year-round offering, but rather a specialty strain that gets released at a certain point in the year (hence, my choice of the WLP platinum release Australian Ale).

I'm not looking to produce just some pseudo-lager. I'm looking to produce an ale, as relatively close as I can get, that is as close to a Maibock as possible, within the outlines that I've listed countless of times. Ferment around 70 deg. No cold fermentation of any kind. No cold crashing of any kind. Must retain as close to the flavor of a Maibock... i.e. not dry or crisp (that may be a relative term), clear, nice malt presence and body, no esters of any kind.

Again... I've been given good suggestions.... but every one of them has curtailed to at least one of the disqualifying aspects.

 

[Denny]

Good luck. If the choices I've offered don't work for you, I'm not sure what will.

 

[rockfish42]

The only suggestion that hasn't come up is brewing under pressure using WLP925, other than that there isn't any other way to make what you're describing.

 

[fergy89406]

A premature post..... bottles are only in a few days in carbonation phase, but I had to put one in the fridge to try. But... aside from the lack of carbonation.... here's the verdict:

Smells like a Maibock.

Tastes like a Maibock.

Looks like a Maibock.

But it's not a Maibock.

Regardless of what you some of you may think, I do truly appreciate the input I got from you... but I do feel that the parameters of my overall experiment were lost on deaf ears. A Maibock grain & hop recipe, with an ale yeast fermented at true ale temps.

But, as of this post, I can say that I have made a very relatively close "Maibock" without it being a true Maibock... without the need for cold fermentation of any kind (and yes, I do consider doing ales at the lower end a type of cold fermentation). Grist, Ale Yeast at Ale temps (70ish).

Now.. there is a slight estery presence in the finish.... but it's neither fruity or spicy.... just the normal ale yeast ester. But it's not pronounced, and it is at the end of the swallow. Aside from that, the WL Australian Ale yeast is a breadwinner (in my book) to create a truly malt-forward Lager-clone.

I would like for others to give this a try.... I know the WL Australian Ale yeast is seasonal, but when it swings around, give it a go. It is a far cleaner ale yeast than any of WL or WY that I've used to date. No need for a cold(er) fermentation temp, no fuss, no muss. It clears very well (although the yeast is a bit finicky when it comes to moving your fermenter around... just look out for that), and it does the job as it clearly states on the website.

Let me clarify as to the statements in my previous posts about the cleanliness of the yeast. While there are a lot of "clean" ale yeasts, they are not without their ester productions... i.e. fruity, spicy, or a combination of both. Now... a "clean" ale yeast can and will produce said esters.... but at a lower level than others, hence the "clean" name. Now, as "clean" as the ale yeasts that were given as recommendations were.... they still produced too much of stated esters than I was looking for. Also, the other nullifying fact of the yeasts given as recommendations were that they were too attenuating, i.e. too dry for the style that I was shooting for. A malty lager is just as a malty ale.... not too dry, but not too sweet. It has to be that right balance.

The hunt for my Great White Buffalo panned out, though. On a whim, and looking through the stats and reviews on White Labs website, the Australian Ale Yeast was, by far, the closest thing that I would ever find for this experiment. Very very clean and malt forward.

And when I say it tastes like a Maibock.... I mean it tastes like a Maibock... not Dead Guy (I can see that little gem of a "gotcha" running through a lot of minds). I know what a real Maibock tastes like, and I know what Rogue Dead Guy tastes like.

I could propose to send a bottle to true lagerheads to make the final judgement though. But, with my taste palette, and my judge for cleanliness, I will say right now that I struck the proverbial gold.

 

[Airborneguy]

Denny... it comes down to what clean can be defined. For me, clean comes with a very neutral, non-estery type yeast. While 1007 and 1056 are clean in most sense, they do still produce either fruity flavors or distinct esters, unless fermented at the lower end of their range.

The whole idea for my experiment is to get as close as possible at normal ale temp range (67-70deg) to create something as close as possible to a maibock, without the use of lager yeast or fermenting at the lower end.

As I stated before, it's not that I discount other ideas or recommendations. But I don't want speculation or theory, or regurgitated notions from what they've been told or read or heard.

How did this get to so many pages?

People do what you are attempting all of the time: ferment a similar wort to a typical lager with a clean ale yeast. What more are you looking for? There's even styles that emulate this exact goal, kolsch for example.

See the part I bolded? That's really the only "argument" you can have here. Different palates are going to perceive and describe "clean" differently. If the simple fact that kolsch and other yeasts produce less esters than other ale yeasts isn't enough for you, then go ahead with your "experiment", but I really don't get what the argument or confusion is here.

 

[fergy89406]

The "argument" Airborne is that for most, achieving pseudo-lagers means fermenting on the colder side of the ale temp range. Like with a Kolsch ale.... DID NOT FIT THE PARAMETERS OF MY EXPERIMENT

Kolsch yeast is a bit too attenuating, leaving the beer a little too dry for the style I was trying to recreate.... DID NOT FIT THE PARAMETERS OF MY EXPERIMENT

And yes, Airborne... I've agreed with you on the whole clean thing.... it is a relative statement, for the most part. What's clean to me may not be clean to someone else. To me, as I've iterated previous times.... no fruity esters, no spicy esters, no sulfur, no diacetyl... or, at the very least, very minimal. The yeast also needed great flocculation.... i.e. clear beer without an extended time and/or cold to help clear...... unlike Kolsch yeast.... DID NOT FIT THE PARAMETERS OF MY EXPERIMENT

Now... the reason this thread has gotten so many pages in it is that it turned out into a form of an argument, and at best a reiteration of everything I was told.... can't be done. Cannot be done because the yeast I was looking for didn't exist. Couldn't be done because you can't make a lager-like ale at the higher end of ale yeast temps.

I.E. If you don't use these kinds of yeast, you're not going to accomplish what you're looking for.

I.E. If you don't ferment at a cooler temp, you're not going to accomplish what you're looking for.

I.E. Making pseudo-lagers is a waste of time and money.... you're not going to accomplish what you're looking for, so don't even try.

I like to disprove things. And I believe I have here.

I am more than happy to send you a bottle for you to try, so you can taste my method of madness.

 

[MisterTipsy]

I'm going "one up you" and make a sour ale with lager yeast fermented at saison temperatures!

 

[Airborneguy]

I tend to agree that there is no such thing as a 'pseudo lager'. As a lager lover and brewer, I can almost always tell the difference. But for some people, a clean yeast will get them close enough. I guess I just don't understand the disagreement between you and the others here. Maybe you just have a very discerning palate, more so than most. Some people really don't have the best palates and cannot even tell the difference between some of the more closely related styles.

 

[fergy89406]

And that's where the gist of the arguments and disapproval on my part stemmed from..... while a lot of the yeasts that were recommended are considered "clean", they really aren't as they're characterized to be..... the yeasts that are characterized as "clean", in the realm of all ale yeasts, tend to show the least amounts of the ale yeast esters and characteristics... but that doesn't mean that they don't produce them. Fruitiness is the one of the biggest, diacetyl comes in second, spiciness third, and at the very end would be sulphur. And I do have a good palette... or else I wouldn't be as good of a chef as I am. I can pick up on the slightest note of any of these characteristics. That's another reason why I got uppity when people tried to tell me clean is clean. Clean is not clean, not in the very least.

For what I was aiming towards.... nothing fit the bill. I truly needed an ale yeast that didn't produce any fruit or spice esters, practically diacetyl-free, produced no sulphur notes, and attenuated at the right amount so that it kept some malt sweetness, but not too much.

I really lucked out when I found out about WLP009 Australian Ale. Produces a clean, malty beer.. which a Maibock is. Produces bready esters, and is very malt-centric. Doesn't accent the hops in the least. Ferments very clean (i.e. my definition of clean) at higher temperatures (another one of my static points), flocculates very well and attenuates just enough.

 

[JasonToews]

Steam beer is a highly effervescent beer made by using lager yeasts at warm fermentation temperatures. Give it a try, ever had Anchors steam beer?

 

[Denny]

And I do have a good palette... or else I wouldn't be as good of a chef as I am. I can pick up on the slightest note of any of these characteristics. That's another reason why I got uppity when people tried to tell me clean is clean. Clean is not clean, not in the very least.

You act like you're the only one here with a good palate (see how it's spelled?). I not only take issue with that, I find it offensive.