Fermentation Question - Slow to Start, Taking longer Than Expected

[buildingmotive]

I'm new to brewing and have started with all grain brewing. On my third brew I did an American Wheat from Northern Brewer. My computer crashed so I don't have the exact OG, but it was around the target of 1.045.

It took over three days before I noticed any active fermentation. Once it took off, it took off like crazy.

The NB recipe calls for one week primary and one week secondary. From reading on here I decided to skip the secondary and just leave it in the primary for two weeks. After two weeks there is still a thick layer of krausen, and the airlock is still bubbling. I assumed everything would drop to the bottom.

So...is this normal? Thanks in advance for the help.

 

[jflongo]

That is very normal if you are getting a lot of activity from yeast. I would let it go 21 - 28 days, and let all of that drop out. You are fine to leave it longer, many people leave their beers in primary for 3 - 4 weeks.

 

[boydster]

Agree with jflongo, leave it another week or two. The yeast don't care what the instructions say, they work on their time and no one else's. Once the krausen falls, wait 4 or 5 days and take a gravity reading. Then wait a few more days and take another gravity reading. If they are the same at that point, bottle it up.

 

[buildingmotive]

Okay, thanks a lot for all the help. There looked like there was some pretty big bubbles so I got a little worried that some wild yeast took over, since it took a while to take off originally.

I'll let it sit another week or two and see what happens.

Thanks again for all the help.

 

[buildingmotive]

One more thing to add. When I pitched I used liquid yeast. For the first time the bag didn't really expand much. Any chance that the delayed start to fermentation and possible non viable yeast led to nasties kicking my brew off rather than the Wyeast. As I said earlier, it seems like there are some odd large bubbles on top that I'm not used to seeing.

If this is a stupid question, sorry. Still kind of learning how all this works. If it's fine I'll just learn to relax and drink my beer.

 

[Bob]

One more thing to add. When I pitched I used liquid yeast. For the first time the bag didn't really expand much. Any chance that the delayed start to fermentation and possible non viable yeast led to nasties kicking my brew off rather than the Wyeast. As I said earlier, it seems like there are some odd large bubbles on top that I'm not used to seeing.

If this is a stupid question, sorry. Still kind of learning how all this works. If it's fine I'll just learn to relax and drink my beer.

That is by no means a stupid question. In fact, it holds the answer to what happened: You didn't pitch enough yeast.

"Lag time" - the time between pitching and seeing yeast activity - is there because the yeast need time to build a sufficiently-sized colony in the beer. Once an appropriate population is reached, they kick into overdrive. Your excessive lag time was caused by pitching a horribly low amount of yeast.

Matter of fact, even if the foil pouch was puffed up fit to bust, you would still have pitched too few cells, because those smack-packs and vials don't contain an appropriate amount of cells to pitch an average wort even when they're maxed out. In most cases you need two XL smack-packs or White Labs vials to get an appropriate amount of cells. Believe it or not, dry yeast is a better choice in terms of pitching an appropriate amount of yeast. They don't tell you that in the kit instructions.

I sincerely doubt you have an infection. Of course, the key indicators are flavor and aroma. You won't be able to definitively tell until you do a sensory sample.

Cheers,

Bob

 

[buildingmotive]

Thanks Bob. That's a big help and a big relief. I just assumed that the wyeast was a better option because it was more expensive and seemed fancier. I'll have to try the dry packet next time.

You won't be able to definitively tell until you do a sensory sample.

That's my favorite part!

 

[Bob]

Be advised you don't have to switch to dry, though it is the easiest. You can pitch two packets or vials, or read around here on HBT on building yeast. The former is expensive, and though the latter avoids continuous expense it is a relatively significant introductory expense, and it can be technically challenging for the new brewer.

On the other hand, I've been brewing for 20 years now, professionally and as an amateur, and don't really bother using anything other than dry yeasts these days. YMMV.

Bob

 

[jflongo]

Be advised you don't have to switch to dry, though it is the easiest. You can pitch two packets or vials, or read around here on HBT on building yeast. The former is expensive, and though the latter avoids continuous expense it is a relatively significant introductory expense, and it can be technically challenging for the new brewer.

On the other hand, I've been brewing for 20 years now, professionally and as an amateur, and don't really bother using anou thing other than dry yeasts these days. YMMV.

Bob

And to follow up with what bob is saying, it depends on how old your yeast is. A brand new liquid yeast pack has around 100 billion yeast cell in it, and it drops as the package gets older, so let's assume you had 90% viability so your packet had around 90 billion in it.

If you go here, and put in 5 gallons, 1.045, you need 158 billion cells for this brew. So you either need 2 packets of liquid yeast, or you need to make around a 1L starter for it with the shaking technique, or a 0.5L with a stir plate.

http://yeastcalc.com/

Since you under pitched, give the yeast plenty of time to work.

 

[buildingmotive]

Wow. So basically I've under pitched all four of my batches by a lot. I was using the liquid because I thought that meant I didn't need a starter. I'll have to get a starter kit for my next batch.

 

[midfielder5]

Wow. So basically I've under pitched all four of my batches by a lot. I was using the liquid because I thought that meant I didn't need a starter. I'll have to get a starter kit for my next batch.

Yep- liquid is a trap for the unwary. Stick with dry yeast unless there is no good dry yeast equivalent. Liquid yeast absolutely needs to be used for certain recipes. Your "American" wheat can be done with dry US 05 instead of WY 1056/WL 001. A lot less fuss n muss by rehydrating a packet in warm water vs starter for liquid. And at half the price. Don't buy the hype.

 

[jflongo]

Wow. So basically I've under pitched all four of my batches by a lot. I was using the liquid because I thought that meant I didn't need a starter. I'll have to get a starter kit for my next batch.

Liquid yeast has less yeast in it than dry yeast depending on the size. According to

http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

Using the dry yeast tab, you need 9 grams of dry yeast. So if you are using 11.5 g packs, then you need less than 1 pack of dry yeast in theory, where you would need close to 2 packs of liquid yeast.

It used to be liquid yeast was far superior, since there was a TON more options for types of yeast, however, that is not completely the case now, there are quite a few dry yeast strains now.

I mainly use liquid yeast with starters, but many people use dry yeast as well.

 

[Bob]

I can't remember the last time I used Wyeast or White Labs. I tell a lie - about three years ago I did a Belgian with Wyeast Ardennes. Now it's T-58.

Bob

 

[buildingmotive]

So with dry yeast there's no need for a starter. Just rehydrate and go. Right?

I can't believe I've been wasting my money on "fancy" yeast thinking I was splurging for the good stuff. Thanks again for the help.

 

[boydster]

Right, just rehydrate and pitch.

 

[jflongo]

And double check the size of the packet 5g vs 11.5g, how big your beer is,etc. Use the MrMalty dry yeast tab I provided about to see what they recommend.

Also, some dry yeast, you can pitch in directly, some say rehydrate. I'm not a dry yeast expert by any means though.

 

[Bob]

Nothing new to add to jflongo other than "Precisely." Check the packet as to whether or not that manufacturer wants you to rehydrate (it differs).

Have fun!

Bob

 

[boydster]

This is a personal preference, but I would rehydrate it regardless. It is an easy step, and it can only help. You can kill up to 50% of the yeast by pitching it dry directly into the wort. Some people do this with good results, but IMO you have nothing to lose by rehydrating and everything to gain.

 

[Bob]

Well, you should follow the manufacturer's instructions. One says rehydrate, the other specifically says not to (and no, I can't remember which). IIRC it has to do with how they manufacture the yeast. If the manufacturer designs the yeast to pitch dry, you can actually do more harm than good by rehydrating.

FYI.

Bob

 

[boydster]

I would be interested to know which dry yeasts instruct you not to rehydrate. I have used Danstar and Fermentis... I think there is another dry yeast company now but I haven't used any of their yeast yet. Fermentis yeast says on the packet to pitch directly into the wort, but if you read the info sheet on their website is recommends rehydrating. Danstar's website also says to rehydrate the yeast before pitching, although it recommends using GoFerm.

From Danstar:

Why is rehydrating the dry yeast before pitching important?

Dry beer yeast needs to be reconstituted in a gentle way. During rehydration the cell membrane undergoes changes which can be lethal to yeast. In order to reconstitute the yeast as gently as possible (and minimize/avoid any damage) yeast producers developed specific rehydration procedures. Although most dry beer yeast will work if pitched directly into wort, it is recommended to follow the rehydration instructions to insure the optimum performance of the yeast.

And from a separate area, referencing using GoFerm:

We have a nutrient specifically developed for rehydration of dry yeast called GoFerm. This nutrient is widely used in the wine industry and supplies the yeast with sterols and minerals during rehydration process.

From Fermentis:

rehydration instructions
Sprinkle the yeast in minimum 10 times its weight of sterile water or wort at 27°c ± 3°C (80°F ± 6°F). Leave to rest 15 to 30 minutes.
Gently stir for 30 minutes, and pitch the resultant cream into the fermentation vessel.
Alternatively, pitch the yeast directly in the fermentation vessel providing the temperature of the wort is above 20°C (68°F). Progressively sprinkle
the dry yeast into the wort ensuring the yeast covers all the surface of wort available in order to avoid clumps. Leave for 30 minutes, then mix the
wort using aeration or by wort addition.

And if Chris White and Jamil Z. say that sprinkling dry yeast directly into wort can reduce viability by up to 50%, I will definitely jump on their bandwagon.

Obviously, there are debates about whether or not to rehydrate dry yeast before pitching, you can find plenty of discussion on HBT about it. I rehydrate with great results. Your mileage may vary. And Bob, if you have more info on what yeast you are specifically not supposed to rehydrate, I am interested so I can make sure I don't make a critical mistake with it.

 

[Bob]

Then something changed in the last couple of years. I apologize; I was operating from memory. It used to be that one of the Big Two specifically advised rehydrating, and there was much confusion. Clearly whoever that was changed it.

Thank you for setting me straight! That's what I get from relying on memory instead of fact-checking first.

Bob