Fermentability questions / flavors associated

[Jumbo82]

Ok, let me start out by saying that this thread may be more appropriate in the beginners section, but since it pertains to all grain brewing I chose to put it here.

I've been all grain brewing for a couple years now, have read a bunch of books, and even have a couple of brewing magazine subscriptions. But for some reason I haven't been able to fully understand the differences between various worts that have the same fermentability. Let me give an example of what I mean.

Lets say you mash in a purely base malt grain bill at 153 degrees and obtain a O.G. of 1.060 wort that finishes at 1.015 with a given yeast (for the sake of arguement, I'm going to ignore the different attenuations you can get with different yeast). That's 75% attenuation. I'm going to call this Scenario One.

Scenario Two: You could also get the same O.G. and F.G. by mashing a slightly smaller grain bill at a 158 degrees and adding some simple sugars.

Scenario Three: You could mash at 148 degrees and replace part of the grain bill with some crystal malts to obtain the same O.G. and F.G.

Now, obviously each of these worts is going to have a slightly different flavor profile. How they are different is where my confusion comes in. Scenario Three will have some flavor and color differences depending on which crystal malt you use. But will it also be a bit sweeter compared to Scenario One which would be maltier? And how exactly does Scenario Two compare to Scenario One? On the one hand it has simple sugars which would tend to dry it out a bit, but on the other hand it is mashed at a higher temp which would add more unfermentables to the wort.

So hopefully you can see my confusion. If my assumptions in each scenario don't make sense, let me know because maybe that's part of my problem. Its not a trivial problem for me either since I often debate when to add simple sugars/crystal malts vs. adjusting the mash temp. I haven't been able to find the answer on my own and I know there are a lot of expert brewers on here who are sure to know. So thanks in advance for any help.

 

[Warped04]

By no means am I an expert brewer, nor do I have near enough experience to answer your questions, and you are right there are people on here that can. I also think this should not be in the beginners section.

Your just describing 3 ways to get the same mathematical result (with obvious taste differences). And I think your head thinks the same way mine does.

Each one of your scenarios is going to have different flavor profiles and that is the key. You aren't trying to create a specific FG...You want to create a flavor not a result of an equation. Scenario #1 maybe the flavors you want from a pale ale, and scenario 2 a belgian (just naming styles off the top of my head).

 

[Jumbo82]

Warped04, thanks for the reply. I might be brewing a Belgian Tripel tomorrow in which case I'd mash low and and add simple sugars to achieve a low F.G. With my last Scotch Ale I mashed high and added crystal malts to get a high F.G. Those situations make sense to me. Its the combinations that I'm having trouble with. A fourth Scenario occurred to me as well. Mash at 153 but add crystal malts AND simple sugars. I'm not sure which style, if any, this would be appropriate for, but it is an option. I don't always make beers in a specific style, sometimes I like to experiment outside of style guidelines. I'm more interested in why I would consider one Scenario over another and right now I don't know what exactly each option would contribute flavor wise.

 

[rocketman768]

If you mash high and add sugar, wouldn't it would have the same taste as a regular high temp mash beer plus a little everclear? I mean, the point of sugar (to me) is more about upping the alcohol content than trying to hit a particular FG, since sugar gets completely fermented.

 

[Warped04]

...A fourth Scenario occurred to me as well. Mash at 153 but add crystal malts AND simple sugars. I'm not sure which style, if any, this would be appropriate for, but it is an option. I don't always make beers in a specific style, sometimes I like to experiment outside of style guidelines. I'm more interested in why I would consider one Scenario over another and right now I don't know what exactly each option would contribute flavor wise.

That's just something that you have to experiment with. It's like cooking. You take rosemary and you can smell it and taste it, but what's the end result going to be when you say add it to your chicken. You don't know until you taste it what flavor you are getting. And the rosemary will change when you say infuse oil with rosemary and baste it vs. using rosemary stuffing. Both recipes have rosemary (along with different ingredients), but will taste very differently. You are trying to create a flavor profile, and that is where I think you think you are having your issues. You just have to do it and see if you like it or don't (regardless of style). It's tough to put that into a 5 gallon batch and imagine you having to drink 5 gallons of something you won't like.

If you mash high and add sugar, wouldn't it would have the same taste as a regular high temp mash beer plus a little everclear? I mean, the point of sugar (to me) is more about upping the alcohol content than trying to hit a particular FG, since sugar gets completely fermented.

Everything you are doing is about sugar. (From what I understand) A yeast's job is to break a complex sugar into simple sugar and the ferment it out. By products of that process / non fermentable stuff is stuff that produces flavors. By mashing at a certain temperature or adding different sugars (brown vs. corn) you are getting different flavors. By adding sugar you are just adding the sugar in a different way than a mashed sugar.

 

[Jumbo82]

If you mash high and add sugar, wouldn't it would have the same taste as a regular high temp mash beer plus a little everclear? I mean, the point of sugar (to me) is more about upping the alcohol content than trying to hit a particular FG, since sugar gets completely fermented.

I think you are right that it would taste like a high temp mash beer plus some everclear. Since sugar is cheaper than grain, why don't I ever see recipes that call for a high mash and sugar?

A lot of the recipes I've seen sugar in were there mainly to help hit a particular FG. With just grain it would be impossible to achieve the 89% attenuation of the Belgian Golden Strong Ale recipe I just read about in Brewing Classic Styles (J. Zainasheff and J. Palmer). Although I know of lot of extract kits sell optional "alcohol boosters" which are just cane sugar.

 

[Jumbo82]

That's just something that you have to experiment with. It's like cooking. You take rosemary and you can smell it and taste it, but what's the end result going to be when you say add it to your chicken. You don't know until you taste it what flavor you are getting. And the rosemary will change when you say infuse oil with rosemary and baste it vs. using rosemary stuffing. Both recipes have rosemary (along with different ingredients), but will taste very differently. You are trying to create a flavor profile, and that is where I think you think you are having your issues. You just have to do it and see if you like it or don't (regardless of style). It's tough to put that into a 5 gallon batch and imagine you having to drink 5 gallons of something you won't like.

Maybe you're right, there are too many other interactions that would make it tough to generalize. I was just hoping for a general rule of thumb that would save me from doing numerous iterations of the same basic recipe to see which worked best.

 

[Warped04]

I don't think you need numerous iterations of the same recipe. I think that is why there is an “art” to brewing. Once you know what an ingredient tastes like you learn how to use it. Granted, you will have to dial in a recipe, but that is the same for almost everything.