Feedback requested: Very basic lacto sour ale

[McKnuckle]

Hi all,

I would appreciate some feedback on my proposed process to make a very basic, lacto soured blonde (with or without fruit):

I’m making a very small batch, about 1.75 gallons, to test the process. First, I’m preparing a lacto starter with 0.5 cup of un-milled grain sitting in 100F+ water for a few days.

My recipe is 100% pale ale malt, mashed at 156F. After mashing, I’ll run it off to my kettle and allow it to cool to 120F. Then I’ll pitch my lacto starter.

After waiting 24 hours, I’ll boil for 15 minutes with a small amount of hops (5 IBU). Target OG = 1.035.

I’ll conduct a standard primary fermentation with either US-05 or possibly a wit yeast, and when complete, I’ll probably split it into two gallon jugs. Each will get a different variety of fruit, or maybe one will stay untouched. I’ll decide later.

I know there are tons of techniques but I want to dip my toes in the water first. Thoughts? Thank you.

 

[tarmenel]

My $0.02
I've been knowing my head with a lacto source since the beginning of the year. I've had results but nothing great. If you want to start something and get it up and running I'd go with a lacto strain from the homebrew shop or the probiotic pills. From what I undertand you're going to sour the wort pre-boil. This is perfect for the pro-biotic pills. Apparently they chew through the wort. My biggest issue has been that I've gotten plenty of yeasts in the wort along with the lacto from trying to get it from grain/sourdough/sauerkraut. This means that by the time I boil my sugar levels are way down. So keep this is mind.

 

[mitchard]

24 hours might not be enough unless you are keeping the temp pretty high for the entire duration. Like tarmenel said, a pure culture or probiotics work much better for kettle souring with significantly less variablity when compared to a grain based lacto starter. Go to your local health food store, or a grocery store with a good section, and look for a carton (32oz I think? The size of medium carton of milk) of Goodbelly probiotic drink. It contains lacto plantarum, which works amazing at room temperature. Within 72 hours I had 10 gallons down to a pH of around 3.25 or so. I used Mango after reading that it imparted less flavor from the drink compared to other available flavors. I was happy with my choice.

That's not to say that the grain won't work just fine. Lots of people have great experience with it. I say go for it this time, and see how it goes. Its always cheap do try another one with a different source of lacto.

A pH meter is a great investment if you plan on doing kettle sours. It's almost necessary to be honest. You need to be able to track the drop to know where its at. Taste and smell alone is pretty tough when it comes to this method of souring.

The rest of your procedure sounds great though. I also used US05 for mine, and it turned out pretty well. It was a little bland on its own, so this kind of beer is a great candidate for fruit in secondary. I went with cucumber and lime, which complimented the tartness well.

 

[Grannyknot]

The only thing I would add is that you may want to make the wort a little more easy to ferment.
US-05, or most sacc yeasts for that matter, have a tough time working in conditions where pH is below 3.5.
So, you may want to mash closer to 148-150. I'd do all you can to make their job easier.

 

[mitchard]

I mashed at 145 for mine, as suggested on the MTF wiki page's Berliner recipe. US05 had no problems with it.

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Berliner_Weissbier

 

[McKnuckle]

Just wanted to come back and say thanks for the replies.

 

[andrewmaixner]

You might want to get a cheap pH meter (even a $10 one), unless you are willing to continually taste-test and estimate for sourness while there is still sugar in it that will affect your tasting...
I'm making my first berliner weiss right now, and at 24 hours the pH was only 3.5 and tasted more like a watered-down lemonade than a berliner. a thread search found that 3.0 to 3.2 is the normal desired range, so I'm letting it keep going.

 

[mitchard]

You might want to get a cheap pH meter (even a $10 one), unless you are willing to continually taste-test and estimate for sourness while there is still sugar in it that will affect your tasting...
I'm making my first berliner weiss right now, and at 24 hours the pH was only 3.5 and tasted more like a watered-down lemonade than a berliner. a thread search found that 3.0 to 3.2 is the normal desired range, so I'm letting it keep going.

Sounds about right pH wise for 24 hours from my experience. Which source of lacto did you use?

My ~6gal kettle sour from the weekend hit 3.5 in 24 hours with a carton of Goodbelly, and was down to 3.32 at around 72 hours. A little higher than I wanted it (and about .07 higher than my last attempt with the same source in a larger batch, as noted in my previous post), but still should add some tartness when the 3711 French Saison primary is finished.

3.25 was really nice in my Berliner, without being overly/puckering tart.

 

[andrewmaixner]

Sounds about right pH wise for 24 hours from my experience. Which source of lacto did you use?

My ~6gal kettle sour from the weekend hit 3.5 in 24 hours with a carton of Goodbelly, and was down to 3.32 at around 72 hours. A little higher than I wanted it (and about .07 higher than my last attempt with the same source in a larger batch, as noted in my previous post), but still should add some tartness when the 3711 French Saison primary is finished.

3.25 was really nice in my Berliner, without being overly/puckering tart.

Wild lacto! I made a starter from 2row malt, followed the advice and instructions from a link I can't find right now this link: https://www.fivebladesbrewing.com/lactobacillus-starter-guide/

Basically:
make a regular 1.035 starter in a 2L flask
instead of yeast add 2 cups 2row
add lactic acid to drop pH below (4.5) to prevent undesired organisms (clostridium, etc)
top off with water and seal with plastic wrap to prevent oxygen exposure (prevent acetic acid producing bacteria)

let it sit at 110F for a couple days to propagate. Pitch it to the kettle through a strainer to keep the raw grains our of your kettle.
I actually stored the starter in the fridge for a few days till I had time to do a quick stovetop 10Gal BIAB for the wort.
At 48 hours now the pH is down to 3.3, definitely not tart enough.

 

[andrewmaixner]

Minimal pH change from 40 to 72 hours (my meter only displays tenths, though, it's a cheep one). I went ahead and did a quick boil with 3 IBU, diluted it to 1.035, and double pitched US-05. I've got two full batches, so I'll probably experiment with one of them with some dry hops.

 

[mitchard]

3.3 will lend a good amount of tart. It doesn't taste like it right now, but it will once you finish and carb it. I had similar concerns about the one at 3.25, because it just had a hint of tartness prior to carbing it. Carbination itself can increase the sense of acidity you get as well.

Here's a list of pH readings from commercial examples. If you've had anything here, maybe you can compare.
http://embracethefunk.com/ph-readings-of-commercial-beers/