Failure of Brewha BIAC

Williams 728
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Gameface said:
Meh. The OP has some responsibility here too. He needs to provide as much info as he can to the manufacturer and be willing to accept a reasonable offer for the damages.

If he's being vague or evasive I can understand the manufacturer being reluctant to foot the bill.

That said, it's in the best interest of a manufacturer to include fail safe measures so that people have a good experience with their product even if they have a lapse in judgement or are not experts on the engineering aspects of the product they paid good money for.

It should be well understood that many of us in this hobby DIY much of what we do. When someone spends 5k+ on a turn key system it's likely that they've done that because they don't have the background to make it them self for 1/3 the cost. Those people are paying a premium to have someone else engineer their system and provide them something that they, with their limited background, can use with confidence.

To expect people in that market to be experts on the equipment is absurd. If they were experts they would have saved a couple thousand and made it them self. All due respect to Jimmy82 who is an expert apparently but spent the money to have someone else do it for him anyway.
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For clarification, I was not vague or evasive with BREWHA. I provided BREWHA with the same information I provided in this post (actually more). I have not screen shot the emails because I am hoping BREWHA will work with me to find an equitable solution. If so, I would applaud them and be their biggest supporter.
 
jeffreybandel said:
For clarification, I was not vague or evasive with BREWHA. I provided BREWHA with the same information I provided in this post (actually more). I have not screen shot the emails because I am hoping BREWHA will work with me to find an equitable solution. If so, I would applaud them and be their biggest supporter.
Click to expand...


Really? No resolution yet?? I feel for you. Let us know!
 
trimixdiver1 said:
Really? No resolution yet?? I feel for you. Let us know!
Click to expand...

Yeah, at this point, I am compelled to agree with your dismay. It will cost Brewha about $1500 including shipping to replace this 3-in-1. We know the company owner is reading this and for a new company, this is not going to help his business. Especially when this forum dominates all others in memebership and product review threads. I sincerely hope he works this out and I applaud the OP for his patience. I know that I and many of the others who bought these systems can attest to the service we received both before and after the sale. We all asked a lot of questions and he would reply the same day. Normally within a few hours and that applied to my questions after the sale. He would answer my questions and send me a link to that answer on his site. I'm just really surprised now that he has not put this whole thing to bed. Warning stickers would be such an easy thing. Afterall, every single component of the system was very professionally packaged in a clear plastic bag with the Brewha logo. The entire BIAC system comes in two very substantial wooden crates. The 3-in-1 unit crate was huge. Now that I think about it, the care that went into that crate was so impressive to me and it weighed several hundred pounds. I commented on it and posted photos on the main Brewha BIAC thread. They were originally shipping to the US via UPS and were incurring damage, so they switched to a freight carrier and I have not heard of anyone now receiving anything damaged. So much thought went into so many things. I knew about the possibility of a vacuum but a lot of people don't, so I'm agreeing that the vacuum breaker and pressure regulator should be part of the option choices. Now that I have thought about it, I bought all the options available at the time for mine.

I know he has lots of money tied up in developing this system and probably numerous trips to China where, by the way, a large amount, probably the majority, of pro brewing equipment is now manufactured especially fermentation and brite beer tanks. Why risk it now over $1500. I will still defend Brewha regarding the amount of instructional material on the site, but people do still like instructions on paper. I will also defend the quality of the system. But if it is going to be plug-n-play include the parts or make them an option that has to be accepted or declined before the sale can be finalized.
 
This forum is seen by many would be customers of Brewha, whether this is a good product or not, the lack of communication with us, let alone the OP is like committing business suicide. This product has real potential, just address some basic concerns and get back to selling your product.
 
i bet the company owner would rather jump off a bridge than admit he maybe wrong:drunk:
This forum is seen by many would be customers of Brewha, whether this is a good product or not, the lack of communication with us, let alone the OP is like committing business suicide.
 
After reading all this, I couldn't imagine anyone buying anything from them.
If news about this spreads, the company is doomed; its almost impossible to recover from a damaged reputation.
 
Personally, though I've said some hard words, this discussion has actually interested me in the Brewha. It's an expensive but very elegant piece of equipment, and one that I would love to own, the problems we are discussing not withstanding. We aren't talking about Microsoft or Apple Computer or General Motors here, but a home brewer with a great product idea who went the extra mile to make it into a business..... a small business. His handling of this issue was an unmitigated disaster, and it will hurt his business in the short term. But the fact remains that it IS a great product going through some teething problems.
I bear the company no "ill will" over this......... I've made mistakes in business that have cost me money and customers......... and you can't turn back the clock. You can however go into "damage control" mode..... mia culpa mode.... and turn a disaster like this to your advantage. There has been a great deal of publicity out of this......not all negative. Many of us have examined his products, and if he shows us that he is worthy of our business by making this right no matter how he feels personally about it, he will find that he has gained rather than lost. I won't repeat the product modifications I feel are necessary..... I've repeated them often enough........ or the resolution with the customer that is the ONLY acceptable resolution........ He has the floor and he has our attention. NOW is the time to act. Letting pride and ego get in the way of good business is a mistake EVERY TIME. One pissed off customer can do a great deal more damage than the good that 1000 satisfied customers can do..... It's an unfortunate fact of life.


H.W.
 
A proper response on here would have cost him one unit though I bet he would have sold a few others in the process, not counting the residual confirmation this would have provided people in the future when doing their research prior to purchase.
 
who,d buy one now ?
you,d gotta be out your mind
5 grand and they save 10 bucks on some safety valves
its not rocket science :confused:
 
Wow I'm really surprised they haven't responded with better options to fix this problem. Likely won't end well for them. Forums can get brutal....
 
okbecker said:
I'm starting a BIAC repair shop and looking for investors....
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Might as well just start selling properly designed BIAC systems and giving good customer support. You've already had all the up front market work done for you. I wonder if there's any IP around the system?
 
pickles said:
Wow I'm really surprised they haven't responded with better options to fix this problem. Likely won't end well for them. Forums can get brutal....
Click to expand...

Especially in such a niche market! It's not like they're selling... I don't know, glassware or something, which is very unspecialized and you can buy anywhere from Bed Bath and Beyond to a grocery store to a JCPenney's type anchor store to amazon to etc.

I would imagine that 50% of the people or more that buy these types of systems are on some kind of internet forum like this, otherwise how did they even find out about it? And HBT is one of the bigger ones out there... so it's just a bad idea.

And it's probably a bad idea for their financials too. If one replaced unit is more costly than two lost sales... then that's a problem for their business in general. I would bet this whole thing hurts them in the long run. This is really just baffling. A "we're sorry this happened, we're shipping a replacement and no future units will go out without this additional $10 part" would go miles for them and probably even earn them a few more sales.
 
I don't get something. This thing is nothing more than a jacketed conical with a bunch of regular brewing hardware thrown in. Why do people spend $5K on them ? Why not buy a (good) jacketed conical and build up a system ?

If I was the OP, there is no way that I would purchase the replacement conical from Brewha. There are plenty of other jacketed conicals on the market that would work just as well.
 
I'd be on every brew forum in existence detailing the failure and their ridiculous response.

Wouldnt replace the unit, true. But making their life a living hell would make for great therapy .

4k?
Pffffft.


^^^^^^^^^^^^Edited^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
This is not a defense of the situation we have here. I think this should have been resolved by now. But since I keep seeing $5k (I counted 13...maybe 14 times) thrown about, I have to make a small point: The medium BIAC is not $5k. They are $3,907 and when I and the OP got ours, they were less. Does not include shipping.

This is copied from my order confirmation on 12/23/2014. Yes, it is expensive, but not $5k
1x BIAC (Medium) Brew in a Conical complete home brewing system - BIAC Complete Package (20 Gallon/76L) $3340 for $3,340.00 USD each
1x Mash Colander Lifting Cables for $38.00 USD each
1x Fermentor to Keg Racking Hose for $89.00 USD each
1x Electronic Temperature Controller - Upgrade to Dual Control ETC (combine with a Medium or Large BIAC package) $70 for $70.00 USD each


Subtotal : $3,537.00 USD
Shipping : $580.00 USD
Total : $4,117.00 USD

Now everyone go and edit your post to say $4k so I'll look like an Ass :mug:


Other electric systems by comparison:
Medium BIAC - 57L
http://brewhaequipment.com/products/biac-package

Braumeister - 50L - normally $2950 (on sale for $2450)
http://www.morebeer.com/products/braumeister-50l.html?site_id=7

Blichmann BrewEasy - 20gal - $2674.99
http://www.morebeer.com/products/blichmann-breweasy-electric-240-turnkey-kit-20-gallon.html

15gal jacketed fermenter from Glacier - $1905.35 - can handle pressure but it does not include a PRV. That is optional.
http://www.glaciertanks.com/Conical_Fermenter_w_Jckt-15_Gallon_100L_Conical_Fermenter_Jacketed.html
 
limulus said:
This is not a defense of the situation we have here. I think this should have been resolved by now. But since I keep seeing $5k (I counted 13...maybe 14 times) thrown about, I have to make a small point: The medium BIAC is not $5k. They are $3,907 and when I and the OP got ours, they were less. Does not include shipping.

This is copied from my order confirmation on 12/23/2014. Yes, it is expensive, but not $5k
1x BIAC (Medium) Brew in a Conical complete home brewing system - BIAC Complete Package (20 Gallon/76L) $3340 for $3,340.00 USD each
1x Mash Colander Lifting Cables for $38.00 USD each
1x Fermentor to Keg Racking Hose for $89.00 USD each
1x Electronic Temperature Controller - Upgrade to Dual Control ETC (combine with a Medium or Large BIAC package) $70 for $70.00 USD each


Subtotal : $3,537.00 USD
Shipping : $580.00 USD
Total : $4,117.00 USD

Now everyone go and edit your post to say $4k so I'll look like an Ass :mug:


Other electric systems by comparison:
Medium BIAC - 57L
http://brewhaequipment.com/products/biac-package

Braumeister - 50L - normally $2950 (on sale for $2450)
http://www.morebeer.com/products/braumeister-50l.html?site_id=7

Blichmann BrewEasy - 20gal - $2674.99
http://www.morebeer.com/products/blichmann-breweasy-electric-240-turnkey-kit-20-gallon.html

15gal jacketed fermenter from Glacier - $1905.35 - can handle pressure but it does not include a PRV. That is optional.
http://www.glaciertanks.com/Conical_Fermenter_w_Jckt-15_Gallon_100L_Conical_Fermenter_Jacketed.html
Click to expand...


The OP said 5k in his first post, so we all took it from there. Now I will go and edit my posts to 4k.......


Shipping was $580!!!!
Damn a pallet charge is high if it's over $250 for me. Wow!
 
trimixdiver1 said:
The OP said 5k in his first post, so we all took it from there. Now I will go and edit my posts to 4k.......


Shipping was $580!!!!
Damn a pallet charge is high if it's over $250 for me. Wow!
Click to expand...

Yeah, shipping from Vancouver to Atlanta via freight was expensive. But to add some perspective, I would spend close to that driving there myself. It was actually two wooden crates that weighed around 250lbs. I'm serious about the crates, they were very impressive. It arrived w/o a scratch in about a week. The crates were definitely well engineered :)
 
madscientist451 said:
Too bad they didn't put the same "engineering" into the product as they did the wooden shipping crates.
Click to expand...

Since it is a safety issue, I can agree with that. Residential water pressure varies and not everyone knows about vacuums, it would make sense to include the pressure regulator or as I said in a previous post that it should be an option the buyer has to accept or refuse. I was well aware of the potential vacuum so I knew about not sealing it with valves closed. I know it is on the site and even shows photos of what can happen. But I had treated myself to a pro brewing course just for fun and that is the main reason I knew about vacuums. This stuff is for amateur brewers and not everyone knows this stuff.
 
limulus said:
Since it is a safety issue, I can agree with that. Residential water pressure varies and not everyone knows about vacuums, it would make sense to include the pressure regulator or as I said in a previous post that it should be an option the buyer has to accept or refuse. I was well aware of the potential vacuum so I knew about not sealing it with valves closed. I know it is on the site and even shows photos of what can happen. But I had treated myself to a pro brewing course just for fun and that is the main reason I knew about vacuums. This stuff is for amateur brewers and not everyone knows this stuff.
Click to expand...

Even if the everyone knew about vaccums and water pressure was equal, it still is no excuse for not (a) rectifying the situation and/or (b) excluding the $10 part. Safety first, always, and the extra $10 is... there isn't even a word for how trivial it is... compared to the risk without it.
 
TungstenBeer said:
Even if the everyone knew about vaccums and water pressure was equal, it still is no excuse for not (a) rectifying the situation and/or (b) excluding the $10 part. Safety first, always, and the extra $10 is... there isn't even a word for how trivial it is... compared to the risk without it.
Click to expand...

Are we in some kind of debate? I think we agree, but a decent pressure regulator is more than $10. Mine with a gauge was $45 and I did not buy it from Brewha. You can buy this system in about any stage you want. Several guys bought it without the power supply or the controller. Had the pressure regulator been available when I bought mine, I would have added it to the purchase. Hell, I've made many stupid mistakes while brewing. I have to board a plane...another place where stupid things happen.
 
limulus said:
This is not a defense of the situation we have here. I think this should have been resolved by now. But since I keep seeing $5k (I counted 13...maybe 14 times) thrown about, I have to make a small point: The medium BIAC is not $5k. They are $3,907 and when I and the OP got ours, they were less. Does not include shipping.

This is copied from my order confirmation on 12/23/2014. Yes, it is expensive, but not $5k
1x BIAC (Medium) Brew in a Conical complete home brewing system - BIAC Complete Package (20 Gallon/76L) $3340 for $3,340.00 USD each
1x Mash Colander Lifting Cables for $38.00 USD each
1x Fermentor to Keg Racking Hose for $89.00 USD each
1x Electronic Temperature Controller - Upgrade to Dual Control ETC (combine with a Medium or Large BIAC package) $70 for $70.00 USD each


Subtotal : $3,537.00 USD
Shipping : $580.00 USD
Total : $4,117.00 USD

Now everyone go and edit your post to say $4k so I'll look like an Ass :mug:


Other electric systems by comparison:
Medium BIAC - 57L
http://brewhaequipment.com/products/biac-package

Braumeister - 50L - normally $2950 (on sale for $2450)
http://www.morebeer.com/products/braumeister-50l.html?site_id=7

Blichmann BrewEasy - 20gal - $2674.99
http://www.morebeer.com/products/blichmann-breweasy-electric-240-turnkey-kit-20-gallon.html

15gal jacketed fermenter from Glacier - $1905.35 - can handle pressure but it does not include a PRV. That is optional.
http://www.glaciertanks.com/Conical_Fermenter_w_Jckt-15_Gallon_100L_Conical_Fermenter_Jacketed.html
Click to expand...

I went all in and bought some extras including the distillation system. It was around $5K. Maybe a little less or a little more.
 
limulus said:
Are we in some kind of debate? I think we agree, but a decent pressure regulator is more than $10. Mine with a gauge was $45 and I did not buy it from Brewha. You can buy this system in about any stage you want. Several guys bought it without the power supply or the controller. Had the pressure regulator been available when I bought mine, I would have added it to the purchase. Hell, I've made many stupid mistakes while brewing. I have to board a plane...another place where stupid things happen.
Click to expand...


Haha no, we agree.
 
jeffreybandel said:
I went all in and bought some extras including the distillation system. It was around $5K. Maybe a little less or a little more.
Click to expand...

Ah crap, I did not know you went all in for the distillation accessory. I'm really disappointed that Nathan did not just replace the 3-in-1.
 
TungstenBeer said:
Especially in such a niche market! It's not like they're selling... I don't know, glassware or something, which is very unspecialized and you can buy anywhere from Bed Bath and Beyond to a grocery store to a JCPenney's type anchor store to amazon to etc.

I would imagine that 50% of the people or more that buy these types of systems are on some kind of internet forum like this, otherwise how did they even find out about it? And HBT is one of the bigger ones out there... so it's just a bad idea.

And it's probably a bad idea for their financials too. If one replaced unit is more costly than two lost sales... then that's a problem for their business in general. I would bet this whole thing hurts them in the long run. This is really just baffling. A "we're sorry this happened, we're shipping a replacement and no future units will go out without this additional $10 part" would go miles for them and probably even earn them a few more sales.
Click to expand...

The only issue with the argument about how many of the potential customers are in HBT is that a lot of his marketing copy on the website is directed towards nanos and small brewpubs, urging them to buy multiple BIAC units to run a small brewery. Frankly, that seems kind've idiotic when they could get the same brewing capacity for less money with a brew rig and a few conicals, which would also provide for system expansion by adding more fermenters, but I imagine there are plenty of small brewpub and nano owners who would rather just spend for a handful of BIAC's and save the trouble of multiple vessels (even though there's probably just as much trouble with fermenting in your boil kettle), and most of them probably aren't here on HBT.

The owner of Brewha is definitely losing a lot of face and customer faith with this issue here and he would have been wise to resolve the situation before it got this ugly, and he'd still be much better off fixing the issue now in a very public way that involves not only reparations but alo implementing features to minimize the possibility of catastrophic failure in the future, but he's probably not sweating this as much as we think he ought to be, because his business model probably considers homebrewers as bonus customers rather than a focal point of his business strategy.

But seriously, whatsyourface, fix the issue already. We get it, you're a new owner of a small business; you've probably sunk a ton of money into this and you're probably nowhere close to being in the black yet, so a $1000+ replacement hurts your wallet and feels counterproductive right now, but it's pretty clear that you're losing more than you're saving by avoiding a resolution. All press is not always good press.
 
brewman ! said:
I don't get something. This thing is nothing more than a jacketed conical with a bunch of regular brewing hardware thrown in. Why do people spend $5K on them ? Why not buy a (good) jacketed conical and build up a system ?



If I was the OP, there is no way that I would purchase the replacement conical from Brewha. There are plenty of other jacketed conicals on the market that would work just as well.
Click to expand...


I see this as more than just a jacketed conical with regular brewing hardware. It is a fully designed system. The way the mashing vessel fits into the conical and where all of the ports are situated to make it work is probably not easy to duplicate without specifically designing the conical around it. Besides, are jacketed conicals at the homebrew scale really that easy to find? Besides glacier, who else has them? I wasn't aware the market was so saturated with them.
 
It has been a few days since anyone posted on this thread. I discovered something a few days ago that has been right under my nose since I received my medium BIAC back in January. I have a glycol system that I'm going to start using with my next brew and I was planning how I would use it and a yellow tag that has hung from my BIAC since the day I received it caught my eye. Yes, I read it the day I assembled it and I just left it hanging. I have used it twice and left the tag hanging.

I have said several times in this thread that a pressure warning sticker on the 3-in-1 unit would be nice to remind people about the potential damage. I also think a simple change to the ordering process where the pressure reducer option has to be either accepted or refused before the purchase can continue and be finalized. I have purchased things that had this type of requirement many times before. Whenever I book travel for work, I always have to click a button that says I accept hotel cancellation terms and airline terms. It would be easy to do that for the BIAC and the end user makes the decision...or a pressure regulator could just be included. I apologize right now for not seeing the tag several weeks ago and for the record. I still wish Brewha had just replaced the OPs unit. **As the OP said, it was something already in the jacket from the manufacturing process that he suspects was the cause. With all that up front crap out of the way, I will post this picture. This may not have been on his unit, but it is hanging right on the outlet of my cooling jacket. So my posts about warning stickers were indeed already addressed by Brewha before I ever received mine. If you look back a few posts, my receipt from December, 2014 is posted and I received it after the holidays in January.

DSC_0263.jpg
 
Really.... And you just remembered it? Well I hope that tag is added to all of them moving forward. Wonder if the OP forgot there was a tag too?[emoji12]
 

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