EZBoil DSPR320 - Help Me!!

[Hwk-I-St8]

So, I've read a few posts from people who are using the Adcraft manual induction burner with a controller for their electric brewing setup. I went ahead and got an Adcraft and I've done a couple brews with it just using it as a manual burner and mashing in a cooler like I've done for years. Basically just using it in place of my propane burner.

Well I got an Auber cube and this weekend I did a test run to see if I could program it for a step mash. Everything went well during the initial ramp phase. As soon as I hit my strike temp it went into mash mode where it was trying to maintain a set temperature, the Adcraft started alarming. The Error code was E03, which is an overvoltage alarm (according to the manual).

Now this is a 208v unit that I'm running at 240, but I don't think that's the problem since I've done two brews with it where I've heated strike water, sparge water and boiled with zero issues. I think it's something the EZBoil is doing. Based on the light that comes one when it's outputting power, it looks like it is cycling the output power when in hold mode. The manual says the on/off percentage of the light is the percent of time on/off. It looks like its about 50% on.

I thought it had it at 100% power, but perhaps not. What am I missing for setting the EZBoil up?

I had it programmed like this:

step 1: mash 139 hold
step 2: mash 135 15 mins
step 3: mash 145 35 mins
step 4: mash 160 25 mins
step 5: mash 170 5 mins
step 6: boil 100% 60 mins
step 7: end

It never got past step 1.

 

[IanMC]

I'm reposting this from the other thread where we've been discussing induction plates (the Spike eBIAB one):

[...] with your Auber, was it configured to power the Adcraft as a simple on/off switch, or is it trying to modulate the voltage/power output as you would with an actual PID controller hooked up to an immersion element? I ask because resistive heating elements are modulated by varying the power applied to them as a function of their voltage/current, but an induction plate requires full power all the time which is then further modulated by the internal circuitry. If your Cube was setup for an immersion element, it would probably cause the kind of error you described, with the Adcraft freaking out over the input power being unstable.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

My understanding is that the DSPR cycles power on and off to achieve less than 100% power. I'm pretty sure it does not reduce the voltage.

Plus, I think I have it set up to output 100% power when it's "on", so I would think it would output 240v continuously when below set temp, then turn off when at set temp, then continuously output 240 when it falls below again.

It does work fine during the boil when set at 100% and it works fine in mash mode while it's ramping up to the set temp.

 

[IanMC]

Okay, I'm not sure then. I'm having difficulty finding it now, but I distinctly remember seeing a video (probably on YouTube) of someone controlling a C208V in exactly the way you're describing. I think it was posted on here. That said, what you're trying to do should certainly be possible. Sorry I can't be of more help, but I'm sure that somewhere on HomeBrewTalk, and maybe Reddit, are more examples of successful implementations of this.

Let me just say that it is a totally missed business opportunity that there are, as of yet, no induction plates designed for/marketed to homebrewers. Commercial examples with high-precision built-in temperature control are prohibitively expensive, yet how hard is it really to add an external probe and precise manual temperature control, when most of the tech is already built in, just locked to preset values? All we would need is something like an IC3500, but ditch the internal thermoprobe, add a jack for an external one, and give us an LCD screen with up and down buttons for the temperature. I see no reason why 1* temperature steps should be so difficult to implement. It's just a variable in a PID algorithm.

If someone (Blichmann, Spike, SS, etc.) built this, even at a moderate price premium, we would all go nuts for it and throw money at them. Induction is really the best heating source for anything less than 15 gallons or so. Simple, clean, elegant; no extra ports, protruding elements, things to leak or require cleaning. Please take our money!

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

Okay, I'm not sure then. I'm having difficulty finding it now, but I distinctly remember seeing a video (probably on YouTube) of someone controlling a C208V in exactly the way you're describing. I think it was posted on here. That said, what you're trying to do should certainly be possible. Sorry I can't be of more help, but I'm sure that somewhere on HomeBrewTalk, and maybe Reddit, are more examples of successful implementations of this.

Let me just say that it is a totally missed business opportunity that there are, as of yet, no induction plates designed for/marketed to homebrewers. Commercial examples with high-precision built-in temperature control are prohibitively expensive, yet how hard is it really to add an external probe and precise manual temperature control, when most of the tech is already built in, just locked to preset values? All we would need is something like an IC3500, but ditch the internal thermoprobe, add a jack for an external one, and give us an LCD screen with up and down buttons for the temperature. I see no reason why 1* temperature steps should be so difficult to implement. It's just a variable in a PID algorithm.

If someone (Blichmann, Spike, SS, etc.) built this, even at a moderate price premium, we would all go nuts for it and throw money at them. Induction is really the best heating source for anything less than 15 gallons or so. Simple, clean, elegant; no extra ports, protruding elements, things to leak or require cleaning. Please take our money!

I'm right there with you. After 2+years of thought and research, I've come to the same conclusion... induction is ideally suited to the small batch (under 10 G) home brewer. I'm guessing cost is the reason it's not out there. It's too simple to just design yet another immersed heating element rig.

 

[doug293cz]

The EZBoil controllers turn the power on and off at the line frequency. The resulting pulses are at full voltage, but very short duration. Averaged over a few seconds this appears as a lower effective voltage. It's very possible that an induction heater cannot respond to the rapid voltage pulses put out by an EZBoil.

Brew on

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

The EZBoil controllers turn the power on and off at the line frequency. The resulting pulses are at full voltage, but very short duration. Averaged over a few seconds this appears as a lower effective voltage. It's very possible that an induction heater cannot respond to the rapid voltage pulses put out by an EZBoil.

Brew on

Does it not have the ability to control the output in mash mode? I knew it would do that at less than full power, but I assumed (perhaps a big mistake) that it would allow the user to choose what the output was when in mash mode and was past the ramp and just maintaining a temp.

This is gonna suck if it won't do that. I guess I could sell it and see if there's something else that would work.

 

[doug293cz]

It does control power during the mash. It does this by gating the power cycles on and off. 60Hz power has 60 power cycles/second. If only 15 cycles in a second are allowed to pass thru the SSR (controlled by the EZBoil)you get 25% power, 30 cycles gives 50%, and 455 cycles gives 75%. At 25% power, one of every four power cycles are gated on, which gives a cycle time of 66.7 mSec. At 50% power, every other power cycle is gated on, for a cycle time of 33.3 mSec. At 75% power 3 of every four power cycles are gated on, again giving 66.7 mSec cycle time. It's these short cycle times that I believe are giving the induction heater power supply problems. But, these short cycle times are actually very good for controlling the power output of a resistance heating element, which is what the EZBoils are designed for. I don't know much about induction heater power supplies work, so can't offer advice on how best to modulate heater output.

Brew on

 

[IanMC]

I stand corrected about my comments regarding voltage/current modulation. Clearly, I've never used an immersion heater.....

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

It does control power during the mash. It does this by gating the power cycles on and off. 60Hz power has 60 power cycles/second. If only 15 cycles in a second are allowed to pass thru the SSR (controlled by the EZBoil)you get 25% power, 30 cycles gives 50%, and 455 cycles gives 75%. At 25% power, one of every four power cycles are gated on, which gives a cycle time of 66.7 mSec. At 50% power, every other power cycle is gated on, for a cycle time of 33.3 mSec. At 75% power 3 of every four power cycles are gated on, again giving 66.7 mSec cycle time. It's these short cycle times that I believe are giving the induction heater power supply problems. But, these short cycle times are actually very good for controlling the power output of a resistance heating element, which is what the EZBoils are designed for. I don't know much about induction heater power supplies work, so can't offer advice on how best to modulate heater output.

Brew on

That's all fine. I realized all that when I bought the cube. What I assumed was that there'd be a 100% power option where all power cycles are gated on.

I did contact Auber and we've already exchanged a few emails. They, of course, pointed out that it's not designed to drive an induction burner (which I knew). They were dubious, but they did give me a setting to change that may help out (the attenuation constant).

I should have read the manual more closely. I thought for sure I'd read that you could set a percent output during the mash phase, but I'm guessing that was just the mash acceleration setting for ramp times. Strange that you can't set that for the actual maintenance period as well given that every other mode has that option (ramp and boil, which work fine BTW).

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

Well, looks like I'm out of luck. I've exchanged emails with Auber support and the only idea they had didn't pan out. So now I have a $400 controller and a $220 induction burner that both work great, just not together.

Back to square one. At this point I may look at other controllers as I'd really prefer to go the induction route.

It really, really sucks that nobody is making a purpose built induction based solution for home brewing.

 

[matt_m]

I suspect you are looking for something more along the lines of how an Inkbird controller works where you can set a minimum on time. My induction plate experience is that it takes a certain amount of time for the coil to charge. Certainly not minutes, but much longer than a fraction of a second. The EZBoil is turning it on and off, but at such a high rate that its likely never charging.

Even on Boil, you are setting a percent output. On my panel there's a light that's on when the element is on. At around 75% I can see the rapid flashing but above that its happening so fast I can't see it.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

I suspect you are looking for something more along the lines of how an Inkbird controller works where you can set a minimum on time. My induction plate experience is that it takes a certain amount of time for the coil to charge. Certainly not minutes, but much longer than a fraction of a second. The EZBoil is turning it on and off, but at such a high rate that its likely never charging.

Even on Boil, you are setting a percent output. On my panel there's a light that's on when the element is on. At around 75% I can see the rapid flashing but above that its happening so fast I can't see it.

That is true. But you can set your boil output at 100% and it's on all the time. Then I can adjust the power on my induction unit to manage the boil. The same is true for ramping up to temp. Both of those work fine with the cube and my unit.

The problem is that there is no way to say "output 100% power when on during the maintenance phase". It will cycle "on" and off depending on the temp, but "on" cannot be set to 100% power. If I could do that, I would be able to reduce the actual output using the dial on my induction unit.

So far I don't think there's a controller that will do this.

 

[matt_m]

It actually is on 100% when its on, but to control temp it cycles on and off at a very high rate when you are close to your setpoint. You need a relatively slow rate so the electronics in the burner come on and energize the coil long enough for it to actually add some heat. This is what the Inkbirds do but on the order of minutes to protect compressors which is obviously too long for you and they control +/- 1 degree at the most which is probably more swing than you want.

I think you could probably program a BrewPi to do this actually by setting the PWM period to a long enough time. You might ask on their message board.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

It actually is on 100% when its on, but to control temp it cycles on and off at a very high rate when you are close to your setpoint. You need a relatively slow rate so the electronics in the burner come on and energize the coil long enough for it to actually add some heat. This is what the Inkbirds do but on the order of minutes to protect compressors which is obviously too long for you and they control +/- 1 degree at the most which is probably more swing than you want.

I think you could probably program a BrewPi to do this actually by setting the PWM period to a long enough time. You might ask on their message board.

I think you're missing my point. "when it's 'on'" means when it's below set temp and trying to heat, not the milliseconds it's on when it's trying to mimic lower power by rapidly cycling. In a normal situation, on would likely be for 5-10 seconds, not 2/60ths of a second.

When I say on 100% when it's on, I mean no rapid cycle. It could simply output continuous 240v when below set temp, and then turn off when at the set temp. Instead it tries to mimic lower power by cycling on/off rapidly when below set temp (their "on") and shutting off when it hits temp.

rapidly cycling (like 60 times/second) on and off is not on 100%. It's on 100%, off, on 100% off at a really high rate.

The did get back to me again this morning with something else to try (adjust overshoot correction). I'll give that a shot tonight.

 

[IanMC]

Well, looks like I'm out of luck. I've exchanged emails with Auber support and the only idea they had didn't pan out. So now I have a $400 controller and a $220 induction burner that both work great, just not together.

Back to square one. At this point I may look at other controllers as I'd really prefer to go the induction route.

It really, really sucks that nobody is making a purpose built induction based solution for home brewing.

Maybe we should start petitioning companies to make one. Who would be the best choices? Making a custom induction cooktop is more hardcore electrical engineering than most of them usually engage in.

By the way, I think you'd be fine to use your Adcraft with just a simple Inkbird ITC-308. You don't really need greater than 1* resolution for mashing, and it is just a hard on/off switch. If you get the wifi version, you can even set up triggers/routines with it for programmatic control.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

Maybe we should start petitioning companies to make one. Who would be the best choices? Making a custom induction cooktop is more hardcore electrical engineering than most of them usually engage in.

By the way, I think you'd be fine to use your Adcraft with just a simple Inkbird ITC-308. You don't really need greater than 1* resolution for mashing, and it is just a hard on/off switch. If you get the wifi version, you can even set up triggers/routines with it for programmatic control.

My induction unit is 240 v. I have a 308 wifi for my ferm chamber

 

[IanMC]

My induction unit is 240 v. I have a 308 wifi for my ferm chamber

Yes, you're right. I wasn't thinking. Sorry about that.

 

[LittleRiver]

My induction unit is 240 v. I have a 308 wifi for my ferm chamber

That shouldn't stop you from experimenting with your 308 wifi. Just use the 120V output of the 308 to power the coil of a relay or contactor that will switch the 240V.

A 240V relay/contactor with 120V coils is inexpensive and easy to find. Any electrical supply house will have them, plus Grainger, Amazon, etc.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

Edited: Unfortunately, I ran a full step mash test on Saturday and ran into problems. First, at the end of ramp, it overshot the target temp by about 6 degrees. Then it kept cycling on the output when the temp was about 1-2 degrees above temp. Finall, it went back to the rapid cycling on/off that causes problems with the induction unit. Not sure we're going to be able to make this work, but I'll let Auber know in case they have anything else they want to try.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The good news, if you didn't see my other thread, is that, with Auber's help, I've got something working. We worked through some trial and error to find out that setting the ATTE (attenuation) to -2 and the OSCR (overshoot correction) to -7 works quite nicely. I was slowly ramping up during my testing, putting the set temp up 5-10 degrees for each test (I had to test a number of different OSCR settings). I don't think I really tested the transition from ramp to maintain with those final settings, but it held temp perfectly for a 10 minute test.

The unit was powering up for about 10-15 seconds at a time with no pulsing. Assuming it transitions ok from ramp to maintain and that those settings work at a variety of set temps, I think I'm good to go.

I'm going to run a no-grain step mash simulation this weekend and see how it performs.

 

[IanMC]

Nice! I'm glad you got it figured out. Good job! Let us know how the brew day goes.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

That shouldn't stop you from experimenting with your 308 wifi. Just use the 120V output of the 308 to power the coil of a relay or contactor that will switch the 240V.

A 240V relay/contactor with 120V coils is inexpensive and easy to find. Any electrical supply house will have them, plus Grainger, Amazon, etc.

Hey - can you provide any more information on this. It's looking like this might be my best option at this point since my full length mash test failed Saturday.

 

[LittleRiver]

Hey - can you provide any more information on this. It's looking like this might be my best option at this point since my full length mash test failed Saturday.

Sure thing. It is super simple. Get yourself a 240V relay or contactor that has a 120V coil, and get an appropriate box big enough to hold it and the wiring connections. When you're done, the box will have three cords coming out of it. One with a male 120V plug that goes to the controller. Another will be a 240V cable with a male connector that matches your wall outlet. The last will be a 240V cord with a female connector for the heater (or you could mount a female 240V outlet to the box if you have space).

Connect the "heat" output of the controller to the 120V coil side of the relay/contactor. You can do this by cutting the female end off a standard three prong extension cord, or you can buy an appliance cord at Lowes. The electrical load on this cord will be minimal.

Connect the 240V supply from the wall to the other side of the relay/contactor, and also connect the wire or outlet that goes to the heater. These cords will carry the full load consumed by the heater, so they must be appropriately sized.

When the controller energizes the coil, the contacts close, switching on the 240 to the heater.

Take your controller and induction heater to a local electrical supply house and tell them what you want to do. They'll have everything you need. They can check the power consumption of the heater and give you appropriately sized 240V wire with the right connectors.