EZ Water Calculator 2.0

[remilard]

I had the same question about chocolate malt as well as brown and amber malt. I would assume they are "roasted," but who knows?

Strictly speaking, neither.

Based on some anecdotal observations, if I were using the roasted vs crystal dichotomy I would put the toasted malts (biscuit, brown, amber, special roast) in the crystal category as they appear to have a fair amount of acid per SRM.

The lowest mash pH I have recorded was a baltic porter that used quite a bit of those (and crystal) even though it is substantially lighter than stouts or robust porter that I brew.

 

[DeafSmith]

I really like the spreadsheet - thank you TH. I'm trying to come up to speed on this whole water treatment subject. One thing I'm confused about right now is calcium chloride - there are several hydrate forms - apparently the two most common are anhydrous and dihydrate. Which one is assumed in your spreadsheet?

Also, I don't know which form the home brew stores sell. And I have a small bottle of Pickle Crisp from the grocery store which lists the only ingredient as calcium chloride, but doesn't say which form it is. Can anyone clear this up for me?

EDIT: I also have a bag of gypsum from AHS which just says calcium sulfate, but can I assume that this is the hydrate form CaSO4*2H2O as listed in Palmer's book? Is that what is used in the spreadsheet? And I assume the spreadsheet uses MgSO4*7H2O for Epsom salts?

 

[motobrewer]

crystal lowers pH, roasted increases pH? or maybe it just seems that way because its based on the ratio between crystal:roasted?

 

[Bobby_M]

Crystal and Roasted both potentially lower pH but if you look at Kai's chart, crystal malt acidity tracks pretty linearly with how dark they are while the roasts sit in a narrow band no matter what the color.

 

[DeafSmith]

I really like the spreadsheet - thank you TH. I'm trying to come up to speed on this whole water treatment subject. One thing I'm confused about right now is calcium chloride - there are several hydrate forms - apparently the two most common are anhydrous and dihydrate. Which one is assumed in your spreadsheet?

Also, I don't know which form the home brew stores sell. And I have a small bottle of Pickle Crisp from the grocery store which lists the only ingredient as calcium chloride, but doesn't say which form it is. Can anyone clear this up for me?

EDIT: I also have a bag of gypsum from AHS which just says calcium sulfate, but can I assume that this is the hydrate form CaSO4*2H2O as listed in Palmer's book? Is that what is used in the spreadsheet? And I assume the spreadsheet uses MgSO4*7H2O for Epsom salts?

After playing with the spreadsheet, I can see that it does assume dihydrate form for both gypsum and calcium chloride and the *7H2O hydrate for Epsom salts (and I know my Epsom salts are 7H2O because it says so on the box). So my only remaining questions are:
1. Is all gypsum sold by homebrew stores dihydrate?
2. Is all calcium chloride sold by homebrew stores dihydrate?
3. Is Pickle Crisp dihydrate? (I have sent the manuf. a query, but haven't yet received a reply).

 

[mojotele]

Strictly speaking, neither.

Based on some anecdotal observations, if I were using the roasted vs crystal dichotomy I would put the toasted malts (biscuit, brown, amber, special roast) in the crystal category as they appear to have a fair amount of acid per SRM.

The lowest mash pH I have recorded was a baltic porter that used quite a bit of those (and crystal) even though it is substantially lighter than stouts or robust porter that I brew.

I see. That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the info!

 

[DeafSmith]

So my only remaining questions are:
1. Is all gypsum sold by homebrew stores dihydrate?
2. Is all calcium chloride sold by homebrew stores dihydrate?
3. Is Pickle Crisp dihydrate? (I have sent the manuf. a query, but haven't yet received a reply).

Still no reply from Ball (manufacturer of Pickle Crisp), but I have found the answer to #3 - it does seem to be dihydrate. I took 1 cc of Pickle Crisp, packing it down as well as I could, and weighed it. The amount I had was actually a little less than 1 cc because it is not a powder, but small granules so there was some empty space between the granules - just guesstimating, I would say about 10%, but it is impossible to determine accurately and the granules don't crush easily. Anyway, the 1 cc, or actually slightly less than 1 cc weighed in at 12.4 grains which is equal to 0.804 grams. This would be consistent with dihydrate which has a density of 0.835 g/cc and not with anhydrous which has a density of 2.15 g/cc.

 

[ajdelange]

I think it very likely that both forms of calcium chloride are the dihydrate. If you leave them exposed to nominally humid air and they don't turn to soup, they are dihydrate. As for the gypsum, if it's labeled gypsum it's the dihydrate. If it's plaster of paris (CaSO4.1/2H2O) adding a little water to some would cause it to get hot and harden.

If you have a hardness test kit you could add 300 mg of the chloride to 1 L of DI water. A hardness of 205 ppm as CaCO3 (plenty for measurement with even a 10 ppm per drop kit) would indicate the dihydrate, a larger number the anhydride and a smaller number the heptahydrate. Similarly, 400 mg of gypsum in 1 L would give about 230 ppm as CaCO3 hardness.

 

[DeafSmith]

Thanks - that's very helpful. I don't have a hardness test kit, but it seems I can safely assume I have the dihydrate forms of both CaCl2 and CaSO4. Now I just need to figure out whether to try to modify my tap water or start with RO water and build from there.

 

[motobrewer]

i'm still trying to figure out how this all works....

it seems the SRM is critical to mash pH, as is the ratio of crystal to roasted. Is it safe to say anything over 300 SRM is "roasted"?

 

[Trouble_Brewing]

What's the current thinking on the chloride/sulfate ratio that we've been led to believe is so important? It's been deemphasized in this spreadsheet and I've heard others suggest that it does more harm than good trying to adjust for malty vs bitter profiles. But no one seems to be willing to update or provide a better recommendation.

 

[remilard]

What's the current thinking on the chloride/sulfate ratio that we've been led to believe is so important? It's been deemphasized in this spreadsheet and I've heard others suggest that it does more harm than good trying to adjust for malty vs bitter profiles. But no one seems to be willing to update or provide a better recommendation.

It's not a current vs dated thing, it is a multiple schools of thought thing.

British School: ratio is king and we kinda like sulfate maybe
German School: absolute amounts are king and sulfate is bad
American School: meh

Note I am referring to professional brewing here. US home brewers have largely adopted the British thinking and this is because they were influenced primarily by British home brewing texts early on.

Contemporary to Palmer's How to Brew were texts by Fix and Noonan that took different approaches to the issue of water. Palmer's book was the least technical and ergo the most popular and influential. It is a mistake to think that it ever defined the only mode of thinking, however.

 

[bnut]

I have a question on this spreadsheet.
Background: I'm planning on doing by first brew this weekend with all RO water.
My plan was at put all my brew water into my brew kettle, add salts, and then transfer to the MLT & HLT (batch sparge). I've been reading people add salts to the mash and directly to the boil (not to the sparge water). Does it matter? What are the benefits?
Okay, I guess I had more than "a" question. Onto the spreadsheet ...
How does the "adjust for sparge water" checkbox work? How would I use it in my case?

And for bonus points, if anyone wants to do me a solid on my first RO attempt, what adjustments should I make to my water for a Rye Pale Ale? I don't have my numbers with me but I think its 17 gallons of total water.

Thanks!

 

[Douglefish]

Using this spreadsheet, many times it recommends a low RA for pale beers. What is everyone's take on this? I've heard people make statements about never having a negative RA, but that doesn't jive with the pH on the spreadsheets.

Thoughts?

 

[remilard]

Using this spreadsheet, many times it recommends a low RA for pale beers. What is everyone's take on this? I've heard people make statements about never having a negative RA, but that doesn't jive with the pH on the spreadsheets.

Thoughts?

In order to have an optimal mash pH (say, 5.4) pale beers would require either a highly negative RA or the addition of acid.

Who said negative RA is bad? That makes no sense.

Personally I brew with negative RA most of the time, but not a hugely negative RA. I use acid as I am not a fan of very minerally water.

 

[remilard]

I have a question on this spreadsheet.
Background: I'm planning on doing by first brew this weekend with all RO water.
My plan was at put all my brew water into my brew kettle, add salts, and then transfer to the MLT & HLT (batch sparge). I've been reading people add salts to the mash and directly to the boil (not to the sparge water). Does it matter? What are the benefits?
Okay, I guess I had more than "a" question. Onto the spreadsheet ...
How does the "adjust for sparge water" checkbox work? How would I use it in my case?

And for bonus points, if anyone wants to do me a solid on my first RO attempt, what adjustments should I make to my water for a Rye Pale Ale? I don't have my numbers with me but I think its 17 gallons of total water.

Thanks!

Does it matter? Very much so.

Why do people add salts to the mash? Either because:

1. They don't know how to dissolve chalk in water.
2. They would rather not dissolve chalk in water.
3. Somebody told them to and they do it without question.
4. They view the salts as a way to fix mash pH and not as additions to the water, per se.

Advantages to adding to the mash:
1. Don't have to dissolve chalk.

Disadvantages
1. Seems to take longer for pH to stabilize
2. Adding the salts that nominally make, say, Burton water to the mash is entirely different than brewing with Burton water. If your goal is accuracy, you need to actually build the water and then replicate the rest of the process accurately (is the water heated up prior to doughing in, is it treated with slaked lime, etc).

 

[motobrewer]

does the final ion count take into account that a bit of mash water is being absorbed and held by the grain? or does that not matter?

I use pure tap water for mashing, but then use pure distilled for sparging. Obviously, the grainbed holds onto about a gallon of mash water. Do the ions get held as well?

 

[jmo88]

does the final ion count take into account that a bit of mash water is being absorbed and held by the grain? or does that not matter?

I use pure tap water for mashing, but then use pure distilled for sparging. Obviously, the grainbed holds onto about a gallon of mash water. Do the ions get held as well?

I asked this very question on a Brewstrong Q&A episode on 6/28. Palmer advised that I assume most of the salts from the mash end up in the kettle after the runnings. The sparge will take the rest of the salts out, for the most part. Since then, I've greatly reduced the salts I add to the mash and stopped adding kettle additions altogether. My beer is much better now. The less I mess with my soft water, the better my beer is to my taste.

 

[Inhiding]

Does it matter? Very much so.

Why do people add salts to the mash? Either because:

1. They don't know how to dissolve chalk in water.
2. They would rather not dissolve chalk in water.
3. Somebody told them to and they do it without question.
4. They view the salts as a way to fix mash pH and not as additions to the water, per se.

Advantages to adding to the mash:
1. Don't have to dissolve chalk.

Teachable lesson here I think since you said that people don't know how to dissolve chalk in water, I don't. How does one dissolve chalk in water?

 

[ajdelange]

Perhaps more important than knowing how to do it is understanding that the method emulates the way nature dissolves limestone in water and that if you are not willing to do it the way nature does you cannot expect to be able to duplicate a natural water very closely.

Anyway, it is done with acid - in nature's case, carbonic acid. Suspend the chalk in the appropriate volume of water and then either sparge carbon dioxide through until the water is clear and the pH correct or put the water under CO2 pressure. You could, for example, suspend the chalk in water in a cornie keg and then pressurize it. A bit of shaking from time to time will, clearly, speed the dissolution. If you do it this way the water will be at lower pH than you want and you will have to let the water stand while the extra CO2 escapes. Again, you should monitor pH until the desired level is reached.

As a final note, the only time you should be dissolving chalk is if you are trying to emulate the water of some brewing city of reknown and you should only do that if you are striving for absolute authenticity and with an understanding of how the water is to be used. For example, there is little point in going to all that trouble with CO2 to emulate Munich water for a Helles when the first step in brewing a Helles is to decarbonate the water. Why put the carbonate in only to take it out again?

 

[Bensiff]

Taking V 2.0 out for a spin tomorrow, thanks for all the hard work TH. There are really good reasons to keep the pH in the ideal range so that is what I have been focusing on for the last few years...I like seeing that coming more to the forefront in V2.0.

 

[alazred]

Nice tool thx. !

 

[Schnitzengiggle]

You and Kai are madmen, and I mean that in the most respectful way possible! PROST!!!

 

[kal]

I finally got around to playing with v2 today after using the previous version for numerous batches.

It's funny how you don't realize what you're missing until you try something better. I had no problems at all jumping into v2 and looking at some of the math behind it and reading Kai's background data, colour me impressed.

It's obvious that a LOT of work has gone into making this new version so I thank you!

I'm especially happy that you've gotten rid of the water/city profiles. This has caused so much confusion over the years, mostly from novice brewers who simply try and match their water to a certain city without thinking about the water & grain bill as an entity. The two aren't separate! If I had a nickel every time someone told me that all that was required to make an English Ale was Burton water...

I'm making an American Amber Ale tomorrow and targetting Randy Moser's ideal Pale Ale numbers using my city's very soft water. Nice to see that my target mash pH is going to be 5.23 which around where I'd expect given my past experience brewing similar SRM/styles. My pH meter tomorrow will confirm this.

I have to say, if I brew within the fairly wide guidelines or limits set in this spreadsheet, I may be able to retire my pH meter (ok - maybe not for everything, but at least for mash readings ).

Thanks again!

Kal

 

[bolts]

Used this on my last batch -- spot on pH. Actual was 5.39 vs 5.44 estimated.

Great update to the tool!

 

[wildwest450]

What's the default percent for acid malt? I somehow erased it.

 

[-TH-]

what's the default percent for acid malt? I somehow erased it.

2.0%

 

[wildwest450]

2.0%

Thanks!

 

[Sixbillionethans]

I like the spreadsheet, seems quite helpful. I'll probably dig into Kai's paper and look at how the experimental data was applied.

Am I totally wrong but when targeting a particular element concentration in the final wort, shouldn't you consider the impact of boil evaporation?

Example: my starting water has 35ppm Calcium. If I start the boil with 8 gal and boil down to 6 gal, wouldn't my Calcium concentration increase by 8/6 to 47ppm?

I guess the chloride:sulfate ratio would remain unchanged.


Also, just to be clear, can someone define this for me? When batch sparging:
Mash water = all water present during saccarification rest
Sparge water = mashout water + sparge water

Do I have that right? Or does sparge water include mashout water? It would affect the salt addition quantities.


THANKS!

 

[remilard]

My advice would be to treat all of the water in the HLT and not target particular ion concentration in the final product.

If you do then, yes, boiling will concentrate. That is the least of your problems though. how much is left behind in the mash tun?

As for what is mash water, if you are doing infusion mashing with multiple rests, it is whatever amount of water you have in for the rest for which you are trying to control the mineral content. It seems like you are making it harder than it needs to be though. 99.9% of commercial beers are brewed with the same water (in terms of ionic makeup) for all mash infusions and sparging.

 

[jmf143]

Would I be better off keeping things simple and following AJ's primer (1 tsp calcium chloride / no sauermalz (its for a porter) per 5 gallons of treated water) or try and come up with my own additions via EZ Water 2.0? I can't get my ph up into the recommended range using just AJ's method. Here's what I'm working with (I will be diluting with 50% RO to get my alkalinity closer to AJ's recommended 35).

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 28
Mg: 8
Na: 5
Cl: 8
SO4: 21
CaCO3: 73

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 2.81 / 4.5
RO or distilled %: 50% / 50%

Total Grain (lb): 9
Non-Roasted Spec. Grain: 1.5
Roasted Grain: 0.5
Beer Color (SRM): 28

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 2.3 / 3.683274021
MgSO4: 0 / 0
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 73 / 73
Mg: 4 / 4
Na: 3 / 3
Cl: 108 / 108
SO4: 11 / 11
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 10.32 / 10.32

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 37
RA: -18
Estimated pH: 4.96

 

[maida7]

Would I be better off keeping things simple and following AJ's primer (1 tsp calcium chloride / no sauermalz (its for a porter) per 5 gallons of treated water) or try and come up with my own additions via EZ Water 2.0? I can't get my ph up into the recommended range using just AJ's method. Here's what I'm working with (I will be diluting with 50% RO to get my alkalinity closer to AJ's recommended 35).

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 28
Mg: 8
Na: 5
Cl: 8
SO4: 21
CaCO3: 73

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 2.81 / 4.5
RO or distilled %: 50% / 50%

Total Grain (lb): 9
Non-Roasted Spec. Grain: 1.5
Roasted Grain: 0.5
Beer Color (SRM): 28

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 2.3 / 3.683274021
MgSO4: 0 / 0
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 73 / 73
Mg: 4 / 4
Na: 3 / 3
Cl: 108 / 108
SO4: 11 / 11
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 10.32 / 10.32

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 37
RA: -18
Estimated pH: 4.96

personally I would use the EZ spreadsheet all the way.

No need to dilute with RO water. The alkalinity from your tap water will help balance the acidity from the dark malts in your porter. Your mash pH is too low. Ditch the RO water, possibly ditch the CaCl2 and add some CaCO3 to increase your calcium and help with the pH. Check the pH during the mash.

OR better yet, brew it both ways and let us know which is better.

 

[Sixbillionethans]

It seems like you are making it harder than it needs to be though. 99.9% of commercial beers are brewed with the same water (in terms of ionic makeup) for all mash infusions and sparging.

Yeah, I'm likely making it more complicated than desired. Thing is, I don't currently have a HLT. I heat my sparge water in my boil kettle and add to mash tun. Then heat sparge water in boil kettle. So I don't really have a vessel large enough to hold all the water at once, thus I can't prepare all the water at once.

My water (Lake Michigan) is actually pretty good for mashing the lighter colored styles I mostly brew. I've been treating my water in the boil only to adjust the malt/bitter profile. Now Wifey is asking for some darker beers and I'm getting into mash water adjustments for the first time.

Thanks for your take, though.

 

[maida7]

Yeah, I'm likely making it more complicated than desired. Thing is, I don't currently have a HLT. I heat my sparge water in my boil kettle and add to mash tun. Then heat sparge water in boil kettle. So I don't really have a vessel large enough to hold all the water at once, thus I can't prepare all the water at once.

My water (Lake Michigan) is actually pretty good for mashing the lighter colored styles I mostly brew. I've been treating my water in the boil only to adjust the malt/bitter profile. Now Wifey is asking for some darker beers and I'm getting into mash water adjustments for the first time.

Thanks for your take, though.

I would add the mash additions based on the volume of water at scarification. This is key for getting the mash pH correct.

Add the sparge additions to the boil kettle. Even if you had a HLT, the salts would not dissolve fully in the sparge water.

I'd account for the mash out water as part of the sparge water. Once again those salts go in the boil kettle.

 

[ajdelange]

Would I be better off keeping things simple and following AJ's primer ... I can't get my ph up into the recommended range using just AJ's method. Here's what I'm working with (I will be diluting with 50% RO to get my alkalinity closer to AJ's recommended 35)...

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 37
RA: -18
Estimated pH: 4.96

Just because the spreadsheet says the mash pH will be 4.96 doesn't mean it will be 4.96. My approach says keep it simple and check pH. I advise against adding bases (sodium bicarbonate, sodium carbonate, calcium oxide) to mash unless measurement of mash pH with a properly calibrated meter shows that the pH is indeed too low. This is based on my (and others') observations that it usually isn't.

 

[motobrewer]

so, is this spreadsheet accurate for huge beers? RIS, for example....

I mean, I plug in 67 SRM, 24 pounds of grain, 1 lb crystal and 2.5 pounds roasted, and, well, i get some pretty low pH numbers, lol.

i was going to try to use distilled and build from scratch since my tap water isn't very good, but, I can't get the estimated pH very far above 4, lol.

 

[doobliebop]

TH,
I got to thinking about water salts today while brewing, and I believe I can write a formula in Excel, OpenOffice, or in a web app that will optimize amount of brewing salts required to match a certain profile. Would you be interested in incorporating this into your calculator spreadsheets?

Let me explain what I mean by this... you could put in your starting water profile, and enter the values for your target profile, and the optimization routine would calculate the amount of each salt to add to come as close as possible to that target.

Also, I read that you hadn't found anyone to do an HTML version of it. I could probably do that for you if you're interested.

Drop me a PM and we can talk...

 

[ajdelange]

The Excel Solver handles optimization quite easily. There is a question as to what your optimization cirterion should be, however. Should it be rms error, rms log error, peak error, mean error....? (I use log error as that minimizes the percentage error for each salt). The hard part is not in the optimization but in the modeling. The EZ spreadheet handles the model OK as long as polyprotic acids are not involved and the pH is less than 8.3. It is a trivial matter to minimize rms or log rms differences in calcium, magnesium, sulfate, chloride, sodium... simply by putting a formula for the "error" in a cell and then asking Solver to minimize that cell subject to the constraint that all additions are non negative. Calcium carbonate is not adequately modeled and neither is sodium bicarbonate though you might be able to rough it in without too much error as long as optimization is done over alkalinity and not bicarbonate. The problem here is that the spreadsheet does not ask about source water pH and as such has to assume that the final pH is 8.3 which may be a reasonable approximation if the source is of low buffering capacity (low alkalinity). But given that you accept the approximations in the EZ spreadsheet I guess there is no reason why you shouldn't calculate salt additions based on the implied model. As I said earlier, it is easy enough to do. You can even weight ions if you want too (e.g. make sulfate count twice as much in the error function as chloride which means closer matching of sulfate at the expense of the chloride match).

But yes, it is possible to have a spreadsheet with source water at one mineral composition and pH diluted with dilution water with another mineral composition and pH and calculate the amounts of salts (including carbonates - but acid is required) and dilution water which should be added to "best" match a target water at a specified pH using nothing more sophisticated than Excel's Solver (well, to be realistic I think we must allow that the Solver is quite sophisticated). But getting a good match often requires the addition of calcium carbonate and if that is done CO2 must be sparged as well (which few are willing to do). And one cannot get a good match to an electrically unbalanced profile and many, if not most, of the published profiles are seriously imbalanced (why, I have no idea). So while it's doable I think it may be more involved that you are anticipating. You can get an idea as to what it takes by having a look at the NUBWS (Nearly Universal Brewing Water Spreadsheet) at www.wetnewf.org. I usually don't advertise this because my goal is to simplify things for home brewers - not confuse them further. Now maybe if a skilled programmer hid the working bits and developed a nice user I/F.....

 

[ajdelange]

so, is this spreadsheet accurate for huge beers? RIS, for example....

The darker the beer the less accurate it becomes. This is in large measure because the correlation between beer color, water alkalinity and malt acidity is too weak to be used as a basis for design. This, and other spreadheets, assume that the amount of acid supplied by malt is directly related to the color and while there is a correlation it is not a strong one. The parent of the EZ sheet has model which calls for absurd amounts of alkali. The EZ is much toned down but the fundamental concept is still built in. This is why it calculates pH's which are lower than observed.

I mean, I plug in 67 SRM, 24 pounds of grain, 1 lb crystal and 2.5 pounds roasted, and, well, i get some pretty low pH numbers, lol.

With low ion water (RO, DI) you will probably see a pH between 5.2 and 5.5 (based on mine and a few other peoples' experiences) with 10% roast grain. This is not to say that it is impossible for you to see lower (depending on the titratable acidity of the actual malts you use).

i was going to try to use distilled and build from scratch since my tap water isn't very good, but, I can't get the estimated pH very far above 4, lol.

That should work. Add a little (1 tsp/5 gal) calcium chloride for calcium and a similar amount of gypsum if you like and you should be fine. But what I'd really want you to do is measure mash pH with a pH meter and have some chalk or pickling lime on hand to add should the pH come in too low (less than 5.1 - 5.2).

 

[motobrewer]

But what I'd really want you to do is measure mash pH with a pH meter and have some chalk or pickling lime on hand to add should the pH come in too low (less than 5.1 - 5.2).

yeah, pH meter is on the list. problem is, it's a very long list, lol. my tap water isn't very desirable, its from a well and softened, so I have zero Ca/Mg but Na, Cl and Biocarbonates are spiked. Sulfate is average i guess at 42ppm...

I did the RIS as a parti-gyle, using mostly tap water in the mash with no adjustments. I meant to add some salts to the boil, but with the parti-gyle madness I completely forgot.

I got pretty decent mash eff and it's already at 68% AA after 1.5 weeks.