Extract brewing is FAKE brewing

[augiedoggy]

Damn, IMO you just can't stand it if some of us are totally content with extract recipes. IMO, it doesn't matter how I get from point A to point B just so I get there. Which reminds me, it's time for another extract home brew.

Seriously ? I hope your kidding because you obviously didnt read any of what I said..or it went right over your head I suppose.

I'm glad your happy I was commenting to the folks that arent happy and gotr all upset someone mentioned one is more complex than the other... its those guys that have the issue accepting things.

I guess the same can be said for the guy who goes down to the corner gas station and buys a 6er to get to point B going by your train of thought... See thats a difference right there between the outlook on the two methods.. Thanks for helping making the point.

 

[Rush]

I agree... I regret even commenting because everything I say is taken somehow as an insult instead of objectively as what it is intended by trying to compare the facts of the two different processes and how they are different.
.
This is a conversation that just cant unbiasedly be had in this section of the forum... I have a feeling if it was brought up in another section where the majority of the members have experience with both extract and all grain that it would have gone a lot differently.

To be honest, it seems people are getting defensive because you and other commenters are being needlessly insulting to extract brewers.

I was an extract brewer for years and have since gone BIAB 100%. I personally would not go back to extract, but I honestly do not believe you even brewed a non "pre hopped canned extract" if you think extract automatically makes the brewing process like baking a Betty Crocker cake.

Do you honestly feel that every step you do before and after the mash doesn't take knowledge and skill? The only step extract brewing is removing is the mash. Period. Extract brewers are still dealing with hop selection and timing, yeast selections, fermentation control, contamination, specialty grain selection and additions.

The mash is a very important step, obviously, but I think you're jerking yourself off if you think it's the only important thing in the brewing process and the rest of the processes and steps are equivalent to "baking a pre-made cake".

 

[augiedoggy]

Why do people keep talking about baking cakes? Have I stumbled into the wrong forum?

Sigh... Well its called an analogy and its a very good one to describe the differences between the two methods of making beer. I was trying to make it simple for people to relate and understand but not surprisingly its just getting people upset .. ignorance is bliss I guess. This comparison cant be made here because its like explaining the virtue of a truck in a motorcycle forum I guess..

 

[Rush]

Sigh... Well its called an analogy and its a very good one to describe the differences between the two methods of making beer.

Pretty terrible analogy, which was the point of my post. Try not being a condescending ****** and you might get a decent discussion going.

 

[augiedoggy]

To be honest, it seems people are getting defensive because you and other commenters are being needlessly insulting to extract brewers.

I was an extract brewer for years and have since gone BIAB 100%. I personally would not go back to extract, but I honestly do not believe you even brewed a non "pre hopped canned extract" if you think extract automatically makes the brewing process like baking a Betty Crocker cake.

Do you honestly feel that every step you do before and after the mash doesn't take knowledge and skill? The only step extract brewing is removing is the mash. Period. Extract brewers are still dealing with hop selection and timing, yeast selections, fermentation control, contamination, specialty grain selection and additions.

The mash is a very important step, obviously, but I think you're jerking yourself off if you think it's the only important thing in the brewing process and the rest of the processes and steps are equivalent to "baking a pre-made cake".

If you read what I said I specifically pointed out that that not all extract brewing is the same... Some requires dumping a can of prehopped extract into a bucket af water, stirring and adding yeast and waiting and it varies wildly all the way up to as complex as to want to get. its NOT all the same... Would you agree that it takes the same amount of knowledge and involvement to do that than BIAB.. Your honestly gonna sit there and say that BIAB takes no more knowledge or understanding than how to mix concentrate and water and add hops?
come on you guys are being way over sensitive here I'm done trying to make a valid point to those whos dont want to honestly even discuss it like an adult all I said it they are not the same and everyones crying like im trying to put them down.

 

[Brownalemikie]

Seriously ? I hope your kidding because you obviously didnt read any of what I said..or it went right over your head I suppose.

I'm glad your happy I was commenting to the folks that arent happy and gotr all upset someone mentioned one is more complex than the other... its those guys that have the issue accepting things.

I guess the same can be said for the guy who goes down to the corner gas station and buys a 6er to get to point B going by your train of thought... See thats a difference right there between the outlook on the two methods.. Thanks for helping making the point.

Well, like I already stated in this thread, I would still be buying my favorite brown ale from Excelsior Brewery if I still lived in Minnesota. But alas, I live in Florida and there's no decent brown ale to be found. Hence, I make my own. Point A to point B. Pretty simple...don't you think?

 

[augiedoggy]

Pretty terrible analogy, which was the point of my post. Try not being a condescending ****** and you might get a decent discussion going.

Why dont you try actually explaining to me why its such a poor one instead of throwing around the insults?

 

[Brownalemikie]

If you read what I said I specifically pointed out that that not all extract brewing is the same.

No, that's the problem....we read everything you said

 

[augiedoggy]

Well, like I already stated in this thread, I would still be buying my favorite brown ale from Excelsior Brewery if I still lived in Minnesota. But alas, I live in Florida and there's no decent brown ale to be found. Hence, I make my own. Point A to point B. Pretty simple...don't you think?

Yes thats a good point in your case your brewing more as a necessity and not for the enjoyment of it from what your saying but thats just you and your senerio.. Thats not the main reason why most all grain brewer brew.. thats one of the points I was trying to make earlier they are different methods preferred by people with different outlooks in many cases.

 

[Brownalemikie]

Yes thats a good point in your case your brewing more as a necessity and not for the enjoyment of it from what your saying but thats just you and your senerio.. Thats not the main reason why most all grain brewer brew.. thats one of the points I was trying to make earlier they are different methods preferred by people with different outlooks in many cases.

Amen...peace be with you....now have a cold one, I am

 

[augiedoggy]

No, that's the problem....we read everything you said

This is what I said back in post 115

"So if you look at it logically then yeah its pretty clear that most of the "brewing process" has been done prior to the act of homebrewing depending on how a person is using the extract.
If they are flavoring the beer by steeping and "brewing" with the specialty grains to do so, it is a lot closer to the complete process of brewing beer than just using all premade wort extract in a can or powder with water or water and hops."

With extract your removing the actual brewing of the grain and conversion process which IS a huge part of the brewing process and one of the main reasons why many professional brewers go to school or work as an apprentice.. These are not alternative facts, again choose to see them how you want im done.

 

[Brownalemikie]

This is what I said back in post 115

"So if you look at it logically then yeah its pretty clear that most of the "brewing process" has been done prior to the act of homebrewing depending on how a person is using the extract.
If they are flavoring the beer by steeping and "brewing" with the specialty grains to do so, it is a lot closer to the complete process of brewing beer than just using all premade wort extract in a can or powder with water or water and hops."

With extract your removing the actual brewing of the grain and conversion process which IS a huge part of the brewing process and one of the main reasons why many professional brewers go to school or work as an apprentice.. These are not alternative facts, again choose to see them how you want im done.

Sheesh, you're like a blister that won't heal. Make beer however you want...as will I. Cheers

 

[allanmorgan]

When someone makes brownies from a mix is it the same as making it from scratch? Most here would agree the answer is no.

I may be in the minority here....but..

No, it is not exactly the same. BUT! And I say BUT! I do like big butts and I can not lie. It doesn't matter if you are AG or Extract Brewers. The only thing that matters is if you are making a good beer that you (and those you share with) are enjoying your beers.

I, personally, do not care if you are AG or Extract. The only thing I care about is if you are making a great beer.

AG = Beer. Extract = Beer.

Hate on me if you like, but beer is beer, no matter how you make it.

Cheers!

 

[Brownalemikie]

I may be in the minority here....but..

No, it is not exactly the same. BUT! And I say BUT! I do like big butts and I can not lie. It doesn't matter if you are AG or Extract Brewers. The only thing that matters is if you are making a good beer that you (and those you share with) are enjoying your beers.

I, personally, do not care if you are AG or Extract. The only thing I care about is if you are making a great beer.

AG = Beer. Extract = Beer.

Hate on me if you like, but beer is beer, no matter how you make it.

Cheers!

BINGO, we have a winner

 

[JDWebb]

Now you've done it. You all got me walking in circles. I use some of my extract dark beer in my home baked bread recipes. Now I wonder if I'm eating fake bread. Damn..

 

[torilen]

Man, I'm sorry I stepped into this thread. Glad I don't care one way or the other. I make beer I like to drink it...and I'm lucky enough that my brother-in-law and father-in-law like some of it, too.

(that said - I've been thinking about going all grain here lately - I just don't have room or equipment for it, really...that's the big draw for extract for me).

 

[jcav]

Well, like I already stated in this thread, I would still be buying my favorite brown ale from Excelsior Brewery if I still lived in Minnesota. But alas, I live in Florida and there's no decent brown ale to be found. Hence, I make my own. Point A to point B. Pretty simple...don't you think?

Hey Mikie, you might want to try a Maduro brown ale from Cigar City Brewing (you can get a sixer at any Publix by the way), really good local brown ale. Just saying....

John

 

[Rush]

Man, I'm sorry I stepped into this thread. Glad I don't care one way or the other. I make beer I like to drink it...and I'm lucky enough that my brother-in-law and father-in-law like some of it, too.

(that said - I've been thinking about going all grain here lately - I just don't have room or equipment for it, really...that's the big draw for extract for me).

Go BIAB. I've got way too many other hobbies/tools/boat in my garage taking up space to make room for a big all-grain system, so I wanted something as space conscious as possible. If you've already got a 10+ Gallon pot you can do no sparge BIAB with just the addition of a brew bag.

 

[Brownalemikie]

Hey Mikie, you might want to try a Maduro brown ale from Cigar City Brewing (you can get a sixer at any Publix by the way), really good local brown ale. Just saying....

John

Hey John, yep I tried Maduro....wasn't terrible but a little watery for my taste. However the flavor was pretty good. I did find a imperial brown (8%) called Molicious at a local brewery, Marker 48. But at $6 a pint it gets a little spendy. I can make my own great brown for about 80 cents a pint.

 

[jcav]

Hey John, yep I tried Maduro....wasn't terrible but a little watery for my taste. However the flavor was pretty good. I did find a imperial brown (8%) called Molicious at a local brewery, Marker 48. But at $6 a pint it gets a little spendy. I can make my own great brown for about 80 cents a pint.

Ok just didn't know if you tried it yet. Marker 48 is a good place too. Yea it gets pricey alright. I know what you mean about making them the way you want. That's what's great about this hobby!

John

 

[torilen]

@Rush that's actually how I do my steeping grains. And that's what
I've thought about doing if I ever do go all grain. I only make one
gallon batches, so my current brewing pot should be fine. If not...
I do have a larger pot that we use for canning jams and sliced
fruit.

 

[rayg]

Oh brother.....different day, same nonsense.

1. "Brewing" is the part where you heat the stuff up to boiling. When you
brew tea, you heat the tea leaves in hot water, brewing tea doesn't include
the part where you take fresh tea leaves and dry them at various temperatures
like the specialty malts. This is true despite how many dictionaries confuse
"brewing" with the entire process of making beer, which consists of three
principle parts: mashing, brewing, and fermenting.
2. The only difference between making beer with extract and with all grain
methods is that with extract, somebody did the mashing for you.
3. Extract does not cause poor body. That's due to the ions in the beer,
and a trick that works every time that I learned from Terry Foster's book
on pale ale is to add 40-60 ppm of NaCl (uniodized) to the batch (about
1/8 of a teaspoon for a 5 gallon batch).

Ray

 

[JordanKnudson]

Oh brother.....different day, same nonsense.

1. "Brewing" is the part where you heat the stuff up to boiling. When you
brew tea, you heat the tea leaves in hot water, brewing tea doesn't include
the part where you take fresh tea leaves and dry them at various temperatures
like the specialty malts. This is true despite how many dictionaries confuse
"brewing" with the entire process of making beer, which consists of three
principle parts: mashing, brewing, and fermenting.

This assertion is based on a poor analogy, though. When you brew tea (or coffee or whatever), you are using the heated water to extract the desired components from the dry ingredients, which is what mashing is in beer brewing (or steeping specialty grains, if doing extract). You don't "brew" tea or coffee by finishing the extraction step and then boiling the resulting liquid -- you'd make super gross, bitter tea/coffee that way. Hell, sun tea and cold brewed coffee are both made without any applied heat whatsoever. The brewing process for beer includes the mash AND the boil (and some beer styles are even done without the boil step). Just because extract allows you to make beer without doing one of those steps yourself (which is fine, no hate on extract) doesn't mean it isn't part of the brewing process.

Furthermore, the comparison of drying of tea leaves is silly too, since that's what malting is in the beer process, which we all acknowledge is a separate discipline.

On an unrelated note, I am seeing a lot of people posting on this thread who clearly read the title and then skipped straight to the last page to share their outrage -- erm, I mean, expert opinion -- without bothering to even read the original post, which was NOT bashing extract brewers or even suggesting that we debate the merits of different brewing methods. If you are too lazy to read the whole thread, at least read the OP for goodness' sake!

 

[Timberline]

3. Extract does not cause poor body. That's due to the ions in the beer,and a trick that works every time that I learned from Terry Foster's book on pale ale is to add 40-60 ppm of NaCl (uniodized) to the batch (about 1/8 of a teaspoon for a 5 gallon batch).

That's a neat tip, I'll have to try that as well as find Foster's book. Thanks!

 

[rayg]

That's a neat tip, I'll have to try that as well as find Foster's book. Thanks!

No problem. That book and his other one on Porter both have great recipes.
I wouldn't be surprised if Lagunitas got their idea for adding 10-20% Munich
malt to a standard pale ale grist from that book.

Rayg

 

[rayg]

This assertion is based on a poor analogy, though. When you brew tea (or coffee or whatever), you are using the heated water to extract the desired components from the dry ingredients, which is what mashing is in beer brewing (or steeping specialty grains, if doing extract).

1. "Brewing" is "boiling". You don't boil a mash, the most you do is heat it up
after the mashing is done to inactivate the enzymes.

2. When you boil your brew, you are extracting substances from the hops,
just like tea.

You don't "brew" tea or coffee by finishing the extraction step and then boiling the resulting liquid -- you'd make super gross, bitter tea/coffee that way. Hell, sun tea and cold brewed coffee are both made without any applied heat whatsoever. The brewing process for beer includes the mash AND the boil (and some beer styles are even done without the boil step). Just because extract allows you to make beer without doing one of those steps yourself (which is fine, no hate on extract) doesn't mean it isn't part of the brewing process.

It doesn't have to be an exact analogy, it just has to make a point.
You boil the water, then add it to the tea. Unfortunately people have
been misusing the language for years in this and other realms, but that
doesn't mean that we have to. I have never considered mashing or
fermenting part of the brewing process, I consider them part of the craft of beer making.

Furthermore, the comparison of drying of tea leaves is silly too, since that's what malting is in the beer process, which we all acknowledge is a separate discipline.

But that isn't logically consistent, because if you are going to include mashing and fermenting under brewing, then malting (and bottling/kegging)
should be included too.

On an unrelated note, I am seeing a lot of people posting on this thread who clearly read the title and then skipped straight to the last page to share their outrage -- erm, I mean, expert opinion -- without bothering to even read the original post, which was NOT bashing extract brewers or even suggesting that we debate the merits of different brewing methods. If you are too lazy to read the whole thread, at least read the OP for goodness' sake!

I didn't do that, I read lots of posts from this thread and responded to some of the points I read in them. But so what if I (or others) didn't?

Ray

 

[JordanKnudson]

While I have no interest in actually continuing to debate, I'll say that I think some of your definitions are clearly creations of your own mind and biases and have no basis in actual definitions of terms (you believe that brewers, the whole world, and dictionaries specifically, have got it wrong, and you alone have conveniently figured out the "real" definition of brewing), and your analogies and reasoning are all pretty flimsy. "Brewing=boiling?" Nowhere are these two words direct synonyms. And for god's sake, you don't boil tea, you boil the water and add it to the tea after removing it from the heat. And again, not interested in arguing this with you. You will obviously disagree with these statements. We can leave it to others (if anybody even cares enough about this) to examine it for themselves.

I straight up don't care if you brew extract, partial mash, biab, conventional AG, or fully automated electric. I'd never say you weren't a real brewer, but I'd also never be arrogant enough to say that only the parts of the process that I actually carry out are "real brewing and you just don't know what brewing actually is." (e.g. "I don't do decoctions when I mash, therefore decoctions are not real brewing; only the sacch rest, sparge, and boil fall under my conveniently self-serving definition.")

 

[torilen]

@JordanKnudson - full automated electric...that's not real brewing.

HAHAHAHAHAHA - Sorry...I couldn't pass up an opening like that.

 

[JordanKnudson]

@JordanKnudson - full automated electric...that's not real brewing.

HAHAHAHAHAHA - Sorry...I couldn't pass up an opening like that.

Ha! Well, I'd rather leave that argument for a different day!

I actually don't know anyone who brews that way...only know that it exists. But I bet a sensational thread title about how "fully automated electric brewing is FAKE brewing" would bring some ragers out of the forum's woodwork!

 

[Honda88]

You think automation is a game?

 

[zigdog]

Mash temps haha. Most of us look up a strike temp online put the grain and and move to a cooler for 60 min and don't touch it. Not rocket science! Extract is a nice way to be more exact and take steps out of the process. Still is brewing and to me makes better beer more consistently.

 

[JDWebb]

Is using a K-cup coffee maker fake brewing?

 

[thekraken]

Yes.

 

[balrog]

I didn't check, have we already covered Cremora, Tang, Instant Grits and cheeses?

 

[Stealthcruiser]

The word "instant" should never be associated with the word "grits" !

Blasphemous !

 

[balrog]

The word "instant" should never be associated with the word "grits" !

Blasphemous !

+1 (being from TN). But instant grits in the mash instead of having to do a cereal mash or use $$ flaked corn is guuuud.

 

[bajaedition]

+1 (being from TN). But instant grits in the mash instead of having to do a cereal mash or use $$ flaked corn is guuuud.

I have mashed a few strange things, but instant grits is not one of them, real grits please. my great mamm ma from Florida would roll over in her grave if I even looked at instant grits in the store.

I think here on Homebrewtalk a lot of guys brew several different ways, I do mashes and extracts, why not? and if I want to add a adjunct in a extract I just throw in some Amylase enzyme into the mix when I am steeping.

What is the hangup about not extract brewing?

 

[JDWebb]

Instant grits, you mean Malto-Meal?

 

[GrimBrewer]

...waking up a "old" thread

Something I havent seen anyone commenting on:

I have made cakes from scratch and out of a box but I am not a baker. Ive assembled furniture and made racks from scratchs. Im not a carpenter. Ive done cans, all extracts, partial and all grain. So Ive brewed but Im not a brewer.
Why should all grain be called brewers and extract not, when its neithers job description? Its not what u do all the time.

 

[Morrey]

I am steering off topic slightly, but reference back a couple of posts to instant grits. I use instant oats (oatmeal) in lieu of flaked oats, so seriously, is it passable to use instant grits as a sub for flaked maize?