Example Parti-Gyle Technique (AG)

[surferdrew]

Hey friends,

So I just PM'd this to somebody who was asking and I thought I'd share in case this can either be of use to anybody or if anybody has any input on how I can sharpen my parti-gyle technique.

I've done 2 parti-gyles...both were a lot of fun and turned out as I had anticipated.

Alright, I've broken it down into 4 sections. let me know if you have any questions

1. General Parti-Gyle Tips
2. Total Grain Bill
3. German Hefeweizen
4. Berliner Weisse

1. GENERAL PARTI-GYLE TIPS
(All this I learned from reading "Designing Great Beers" by Ray Daniels)

There's a few ways to go about getting your target pre-boil gravity for each of your brews out of the same mash. Recently, I collected 6 gallons of my initial mash runnings for one beer and then collected the next 6 gallons for another beer. Since as you know the sugar content that you've extracted from the grain is much higher in the beginning, my "first runnings" beer had a much higher gravity than my "second runnings" beer. In fact, I ended up with 5 gallons of 1.064 OG IPA and 9 gallons of 1.043 OG Pale Ale.

However, for this specific recipe...i wanted to hit exact pre-boil gravity and volume for both the german hefeweizen and the berlinner weisse. So, I collected all of the runnings in one vessel (a total of 12 gallons). Even though my target was 1.048, I ended up with a little lower efficiency and it was at 1.045. It was crucial to take the pre-boil gravity reading and volume measurement as it will help you get exactly what you want in the end.

So, I had 12 gallons of 1.045 pre-boil gravity wort. Knowing these numbers are key.

I wanted to end up with 6 gallons of German Hefeweizen with roughly 1.050 OG to drink and 5 gallons of Berliner Weisse with roughly 1.030 OG to drink.

I use a program called "Beer Alchemy" so my calculations are pretty easy. But basically this is what I did.

For the Berliner Weise: Transferred 4 gallons of 1.045 pre-boil gravity wort into 1 kettle, added 2 gallons of water before I got it up to boiling (total of 6 gallons in kettle), only did a vigorous 15 min boil down to 5.85 gallons and ended up with an OG of 1.032.

For the Hefe: Transferred 8 gallons of 1.045 pre-boil gravity wort into another kettle, boiled it down to 6.8 gallons and ended up with an OG of 1.051.

I did both boils at the same time in two different keggles to be exact...but you can do one and then the other if you have one kettle.

So, basically since i knew my pre-boil gravity and my collected wort volume, I could calculate how much I needed to boil off (to raise gravity) and how much water I needed to add (to lower gravity). Also, to raise gravity, you can add extract or even adjuncts like sugar, honey, maple syrup, etc.

You could also add water to the Berliner Weisse after the boil but I like to have my whole volume in during the boil because it achieves a better hop utilization.

Hope that all makes sense!

2. TOTAL GRAIN BILL

Batch 1 of German Party Gyle

Target Wort Volume Before Boil: 12.00 US gals

Target Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.048 SG

Fermentables
Ingredient Amount % MCU
German Wheat Malt 13lb 8oz 62.8 % 1.8
German Pilsner Malt 8lb 0oz 37.2 % 0.9

Mash Schedule
Mash Type: Full Mash
Schedule Name: Single Step Infusion (66C/151F) w/Mash Out

Step Type Temperature Duration
Rest at 151 degF 60
Mash out at 171 degF 10

Actual Mash Notes
First Runnings: 1.090 (22.2 Brix)
Half Runnings: 1.043 (11 Brix)
Total Runnings: 1.045 <-- Pre-boil Gravity

3. GERMAN HEFEWEIZEN (60 min boil)

Actual Wort Volume Before Boil: 8.00 US gals
Actual Wort Volume After Boil: 6.80 US gals
Target Volume Transferred: 6.50 US gals
Actual Volume At Pitching: 6.50 US gals
Actual Volume Of Finished Beer: 6.00 US gals
Actual Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.045 SG
Actual OG: 1.051 SG
Actual FG: 1.012 SG
Actual Apparent Attenuation: 75.7 %
Actual ABV: 5.2 %
Actual IBU: 15.7 IBU
Actual Color: 5.6 SRM

Hop Schedule
German Hallertauer 3.5 % 1.00 oz Loose Pellet Hops 60 Min From End
German Hallertauer 3.5 % 0.75 oz Loose Pellet Hops 15 Min From End

Yeast
White Labs WLP300 - Hefeweizen Ale

Fermentation Schedule
Primary: 2 weeks @ 60 degF ambient
Cold Crash: 4 days @ 34 degF
kegged

4. BERLINER WEISSE (15 min boil)

Actual Wort Volume Before Boil: 4.00 US gals
Actual Water Volume Added Before Boil: 2.00 US gals
Actual Wort Volume After Boil: 5.85 US gals
Actual Volume At Pitching: 5.50 US gals
Actual Volume Of Finished Beer: 5.00 US gals
Actual Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.045 SG
Actual OG: 1.032 SG
Actual FG: 1.006 SG
Actual Apparent Attenuation: 80.9 %
Actual ABV: 3.4 %
Actual ABW: 2.7 %
Actual IBU: 3.8 IBU
Actual Color: 5.2 SRM

Hops
German Hallertauer 3.5 % 1.00 oz Loose Pellet Hops 15 Min From End

Yeast
White Labs WLP630 - Berliner Weisse

Fermentation Schedule
Primary: 2 weeks at 68 degF ambient
Secondary: 4 weeks at 68 degF ambient
Cold Crash: 4 days at 34 degF
bottled

Alright...happy brewing!

seriously, let me know if you have any questions.

cheers.

 

[edmanster]

What's the best sparging method for this.. I can only do batch.. Will it work because I want my first running (only 1 1/2 gallons of it) for a barley wine? The rest I was thinking just a APA for summer time..

 

[surferdrew]

couple questions:

How big is your grain bill and how many gallons of pre-boil wort are you shooting for?

Batch sparging works great for parti-gyle. I know some who will make one beer from their first batch sparge and another from their second (and even third) batch sparge.

Really, the key is being able to get enough grain so that your first runnings are high enough (especially if you are wanting a barleywine) and that you are measuring your gravity along the way in order to calculate how much volume you'll be able to get in the end (and if you need to make adjustments to reach your target OG and volume).

 

[edmanster]

Haven't worked out my numbers yet but I'm also wondering when you do multiple batch sparging do you lower the water temp from 170 so the grain doesn't get to hot after the 2nd time so you don't extract tannin?

 

[surferdrew]

Good question.

I guess it depends on your specific technique for batch sparging.

Most AG brewers that do batch sparging actually do what Palmer describes as the "English Method" in his How To Brew book.

One of the threads that talks about this distinction is here.

Is this how you typically do batch sparging? --> (Quoting Palmer): "In the English method of sparging, the wort is completely drained from the grain bed before more water is added for a second mash and drained again. These worts are then combined."

If this is the case, then since you are draining the runnings of the mash for the second time without letting it rest for a significant amount of time, noticeable amounts of tannins won't be extracted.

Palmer goes on to say regarding this English method (which we all now call Batch Sparging): "Alternatively, the first and second runnings are often used to make separate beers. The second running is lighter in gravity and was traditionally used for making a Small Beer, a lighter bodied, low alcohol beer suitable for high volume quaffing at mealtimes."

If you have a thermometer that stays in your mash, you'll notice how much temperature loss there is when you start draining the wort...that 170 drops down into the low 160's and then 150's.

 

[Veinman]

Good stuff. I love party-gyling myself and always look to see similar techniques used by other people.
Couple questions:
1. Is a 15 minute boil long enough? I realize you only had 15 minute hops but I thought their were other nasties that needed at least 30 minutes to get driven off.
2. When I party-gyle myself I calculate my batch size (usually 5.5 gallons) and from there I know my pre-boil volume is and thus how much wort I need to collect, with your method of focusing on hitting your OG as opposed to volume do you alter your hop addition amounts if your volume is different from what you planned.
3. Have you noticed tannins in any of your lighter beers from a lot of sparging. The last time I party-gyled I made 3 Scottish Beers of 6.6%, 4% and 3% and although the grain bed never got above 170F some tannins are detectable in the 3% beer which I assume is from all the sparging.
4. Does Beer Alchemy do some or all of the calculations for you? I use BeerSmith and it doesn't have any "party-gyle" calculators.

Cheers.

 

[surferdrew]

Hey!

Great questions...I'm no expert and I love sharing tips along the way so here you go:

1. The 15 minute boil had nothing to do with my parti-gyle technique but rather I was trying to get closer to a traditional Berlinner Weisse style beer which traditionally has no boil at all. Because I was concerned with nasties, I went with a vigorous 15 minute boil and it ended out OK.
2. Yes, I will adjust my hops using Beer Alchemy (only if the volume is so off that I have to adjust hops to stay within style or at least within my preferences). For example, if my hops were a target 70 IBU and it ended up being a potential 80 IBU, I probably wouldn't adjust. But if I were shooting for 10 IBU and it ended up being a potential 20 IBU, I would adjust because I would notice that difference on the lower end of the spectrum.
3. Haven't noticed tannins yet on lower beers but someone with a more refined palate might...I don't sparge beyond a 1.015 gravity though.
4. Beer Alchemy doesn't adjust for Parti-gyle...would be a great update though! Basically, I calculate the pre-boil gravity with estimated efficiency as my "master batch." I then create 2 new recipes in Beer Alchemy with an estimated grain profile to reach that same pre-boil gravity with a combined total of grain that matches the grain total of the "master batch" (however with different volumes). For example, if the master batch has 25 lbs of grain with a 14 gallon pre-boil gravity of 1.049...then I'll make two new recipes that together total 25 lbs of grain but I adjust mid brew to match what my actual first runnings gravity and volume are.

I have no idea if that makes sense...but basically I use beer alchemy to calculate and adjust throughout the brew process.

 

[Veinman]

Great to hear and from you replies it sounds like we take the same techniques to party-gyle brewing. I tell people who ask me about it that personally I feel its about nailing the strongest beer and being willing to adjust from there on out. One time I had to add DME when I didn't hit my second brews OG and another I had to up the hops when the OG was higher than expected but being willing to adjust made both of those 2nd running beers turn out great.

As far as tannins I've still trying to learn exactly what they taste like but I think I noticed some in my 3rd running beer when I double party-gyled but other than that haven't found hardly any of them, I've heard keeping the grains below 170F at all times helps and I've kept to that rule.

It also sounds like we do pretty much the same calculations, I use BeerSmith but it sounds like the same concept, the reason I asked about beer alchemy is I was wondering if there was a software program out there that would do the party-gyle calculations for you.

My next party-gyle is going to be a different approach for me. I'll be brewing a BarleyWine with about 20% more grains than the standard recipe calls for I'm then going to sparge until I get to below 1.015 and make a second beer out of whatever volume of beer that happens to give me, if its a high OG it will be an IPA if lower a APA its exciting not knowing whats going to happen on brew day.

 

[bergman1118]

Man.. what a coincidence - I am planning on doing a parti-gyle with exactly the same beers that you used in your example (Hefeweizen and Berliner Weisse). I have never done a parti-gyle before, but I'm looking forward to this one! I found braukaiser's calculator for parti-gyling to be very helpful --> http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Batch_Sparge_and_Party_Gyle_Simulator.

The plan for my parti-gyle is to drain the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd runnings into separate containers. Combine 1.25 gallons of the 3rd runnings with all of the 2nd runnings to get 5.25 gallons of ~1.030 Berliner Weisse wort, and then combine all of the 1st runnings with the remainder of the 3rd runnings to get 6.75 gallons of ~1.048 Hefeweizen wort. I am more concerned about getting the Berliner Weisse wort at the right gravity than the Hefeweizen. If this doesn't work out as intended, I'll likely take your approach and combine all runnings, draw off the appropriate amounts for each beer, and dilute accordingly.

In any case, thanks for the run down - it always helps to read how other people are doing things.

 

[gbx]

Hey!


4. Beer Alchemy doesn't adjust for Parti-gyle...would be a great update though! Basically, I calculate the pre-boil gravity with estimated efficiency as my "master batch." I then create 2 new recipes in Beer Alchemy with an estimated grain profile to reach that same pre-boil gravity with a combined total of grain that matches the grain total of the "master batch" (however with different volumes). For example, if the master batch has 25 lbs of grain with a 14 gallon pre-boil gravity of 1.049...then I'll make two new recipes that together total 25 lbs of grain but I adjust mid brew to match what my actual first runnings gravity and volume are.

I have no idea if that makes sense...but basically I use beer alchemy to calculate and adjust throughout the brew process.

I did my first partigyle brew using beer alchemy a few weeks ago. I made 2 identical recipes and then adjusted the mash efficiencies and volumes for each batch to match what I collected in the brew kettles. This method worked well but the estimated colour was way darker for the second batch than it turned out in reality. If do a few more brews using this method, maybe I'll see some consistent efficiency differences between the first and second runnings so I can plan the second beer in advance.