Esterriffic Lagers

[bernerbrau]

I'm starting to get frustrated here. I've been doing lagers for about a year now, and all except one have come out tasting like friggin' Boone's Farm. Cold crashing and gelatin have helped, and friends really like my lagers, but from a technical perspective, it's still a flaw.

I'd say the issue is underpitching, but this Sunday I drew a sample from my next-to-latest pilsner, into which I pitched a 2-step starter, 1 gallon each, aerated on a stirplate. Bam. Aroma, palate, finish, Hawaiian Punch. Now, it hasn't lagered yet, but I'm not finding any good information on just which off-flavors are cleaned up during the lagering phase, and due to my previous results I'm somewhat pessimistic about the final product.

I'm fermenting these in a chest freezer hooked up to an analog controller set at 50F. Thus far I've left the probe dangling in mid-air, but even so, I wouldn't expect it to get past 55-60F in the carboy. I've taped the probe to the side of the fermenter for my latest lager as a precaution to minimize the discrepancy.

I'm also seriously considering buying some form of aeration tool, whether that's the plastic fan blade that hooks up to a power drill, or an O2 tank with a .5 micron diffuser stone.

So, lager vets. Besides making my starters even huger, improving my aeration techniques, and more precise temperature control, any other ideas as to what I could try to make my lagers more Pilsner Urquell and less Bacardi Silver?

 

[JoePro]

Zero in on your methods for the one that made a great lager-- what could have been different?

What are your pitching temperatures?

And as far as I know, Lagers should be seriously oxygenated and super-yeastified prior to pitching. Have you considered adding yeast nutrients? Are you using any adjuncts in your lagers?

 

[bernerbrau]

Zero in on your methods for the one that made a great lager-- what could have been different?

What are your pitching temperatures?

And as far as I know, Lagers should be seriously oxygenated and super-yeastified prior to pitching. Have you considered adding yeast nutrients? Are you using any adjuncts in your lagers?

No adjuncts in any of my starters. Base malt and occasional specialty malts if the style calls for it.

The one lager that didn't come out super fruity (and it was semi-fruity until cold crashing in the keg cleared it up) was a repitch onto a yeast cake from a 3-gallon batch, with somewhat high IBUs for a lager. The frustrating thing with that one was that I was using Anchor Steam yeast, which is supposed to be super low-ester and fermentable at ale temps.

Pitching temps -- I'm chilling my wort to 70-80 then letting it sit in the freezer until it hits 50 before pitching. This may be the source of some of my issues because there's probably a lot of opportunity for the wort to de-gas the oxygen that I get from letting my chilled wort trickle into mouth of the fermenter via siphon. My most recent lager wouldn't start for 4 whole days at 50, so I brought it up to 60 just long enough for a krausen to form before bringing it back down.

I have added nutrients to the starters, but not to the actual wort. Another mistake I made with my pilsner was I didn't fully decant the starter for fear of underpitching, completely forgetting about the esters that the warm fermentation in the starter had likely produced.

 

[JoePro]

No adjuncts in any of my starters. Base malt and occasional specialty malts if the style calls for it.

The one lager that didn't come out super fruity (and it was semi-fruity until cold crashing in the keg cleared it up) was a repitch onto a yeast cake from a 3-gallon batch,

Bam. Make a bigger starter.

Also, when you pitch, make sure that your yeast starter is within 3-4 degrees of the wort. This will keep the yeast from being shocked thermally, and should allow them to ferment much cleaner.

 

[bernerbrau]

Bam. Make a bigger starter.

See, I'd have expected a gallon starter, decanted and pitched into another gallon starter, both fermented at 80F on a stirplate, would give me plenty more yeast than the cake from a 3-gallon no-starter cold-fermented lager.

Of course, my subsequent failure to fully decant could mean the esters came from the starter itself...

And again, higher IBUs in that batch could just mean some of the fruit flavor was masked by the bitterness.

*sigh* So many variables.

Not to discredit any of the advice of course. My next lager: more yeast, more aeration, and maybe a digital controller with a thermowell.

Also, when you pitch, make sure that your yeast starter is within 3-4 degrees of the wort. This will keep the yeast from being shocked thermally, and should allow them to ferment much cleaner.

Yeah, once the starter is crashed I put it in the freezer set at fermentation temperature for a day or two.

 

[JoePro]

Of course, my subsequent failure to fully decant could mean the esters came from the starter itself...

*sigh* So many variables.

This will definitely detract from the final product's overall quality, especially if you're introducing any sized portion of fusel-heavy, estery starter into a lager.

Here's some additional (although painstakingly anal) suggestions:

Decant the starter fully, and then add pre-boiled and cooled water to the slurry. Wait for that to settle and stratify, and then decant once more to reduce the overall concentration of the starter beer profile.. While not totally necessary, I'd try it once to see if it really makes a difference and if it does, then forge on!

Also, what yeasts are you using?

 

[bernerbrau]

This will definitely detract from the final product's overall quality, especially if you're introducing any sized portion of fusel-heavy, estery starter into a lager.

I think about 3/4 quart of starter made it in.

Here's some additional (although painstakingly anal) suggestions:

Seems painstakingly anal is kind of necessary to not f*ck up a lager.

Decant the starter fully, and then add pre-boiled and cooled water to the slurry. Wait for that to settle and stratify, and then decant once more to reduce the overall concentration of the starter beer profile.. While not totally necessary, I'd try it once to see if it really makes a difference and if it does, then forge on!

Not a bad idea. "Wash" the starter basically. I like it. I was also thinking of racking to decant, so I don't risk pouring off yeast unnecessarily.

Also, what yeasts are you using?

Let's see. I'm too lazy to look them up on White Labs, but I've used San Francisco Lager, German Oktoberfest, German Bock, Czech Pilsner, and Czech Bud.

 

[JoePro]

Good yeasts.

Yeah, the advice I gave you should be a good base to start from.

I would go ahead and step up your starter an extra half gallon or so and "wash it". Make sure all your liquids are within the same temperature parameters to avoid thermal shock.

Oxygenate the piss out of your wort prior to pitching (you really need to be above the ambient 8ppm saturation-- invest in an aerator!). Let us know the results and good luck!

 

[bernerbrau]

Good yeasts.

Unfortunately, I wouldn't know

Yeah, the advice I gave you should be a good base to start from.

I would go ahead and step up your starter an extra half gallon or so and "wash it". Make sure all your liquids are within the same temperature parameters to avoid thermal shock.

Oxygenate the piss out of your wort prior to pitching (you really need to be above the ambient 8ppm saturation-- invest in an aerator!). Let us know the results and good luck!

Let me see. I can rack to a sealed bucket before transferring to the freezer until it gets down to pitching temp, then when it's cold enough, rack again to the fermenter, allowing the wort to trickle in from the top so there's a lot of surface area exposure. Step 2, I get that plastic fan attachment for my power drill and run it in the fermenter on full blast for 5 minutes. With a gallon of headspace that should be fine not to splash too much wort.

Hopefully that method will be sufficient until I can convince my wife I can afford an aerator. Unfortunately I'm still carrying over a lot of "good advice" from the beginner homebrewer/ale worlds, where one is told a good shake is all we really need. Lager, as I've found, is a beast of a different color.

 

[bernerbrau]

Speaking of starters. I hate spending tons of money on extract, and getting sticky crap all over my kitchen. I feel like I should be able to mash a bunch of wort at high gravity, store it indefinitely until I need a starter, then dilute and boil when it's time to make a starter.

My problem is whenever I try to store wort, it gets infected within a month despite using sealed sanitized containers. Maybe freezing it would help its shelf life?

 

[JoePro]

Speaking of starters. I hate spending tons of money on extract, and getting sticky crap all over my kitchen. I feel like I should be able to mash a bunch of wort at high gravity, store it indefinitely until I need a starter, then dilute and boil when it's time to make a starter.

My problem is whenever I try to store wort, it gets infected within a month despite using sealed sanitized containers. Maybe freezing it would help its shelf life?

Wort can be stored pretty easily in mason jars.

It could get sticky, but you would essentially boil mason jars + lids + screw rims in your wort, and then using some silicone thermal gloves after 15 min of boiling, you could place the lids and rim caps on the jars and then toss them in the fridge.

The negative pressure created by the reduction in volume inside the mason jar will keep a super-tight seal. You're basically using the same methods as pickling or canning, but with a mason jar.

Make sure the jars are as full as possible before capping. This eliminates air space and the insides of the mason jars will be 100% sanitary if you boiled long enough.

I do this for yeast washing, but I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work for large-scale wort storage.

 

[JoePro]

You can even make a sort of "fractional parti-gyle" in which you collect the first runnings from a batch, like you mentioned, and store it. But make sure that THAT solution has been boiled thoroughly and your container is as sterile as possible.

Store it cold (36 deg), and you should get a good life out of it. Feel free to dilute to your heart's content with pre-boiled water.

And, as a side note, you may want to keep those infected jars of starter wort. If they're acidic and tart, they may contain bugs that you could in turn use to sour beers-- further adding to your repertoire of styles!

 

[Homercidal]

I think my second pilsner came out pretty good. I did up a 1 gallon starter and stuck in the fridge for a couple of days before brewing. After brewing I put the fermenter in the chill chest overnight to drop to 50F and the next day I pitched just the yeast on the bottom. It fermented for 4 weeks before I dropped the temp to 34F for another few weeks.

I thought about doing a D-rest, but I didn't detect any diacetyl so I just went for it. I may be insensitive to that, so a D-rest may be required.

FWIW I never like to pitch the starter wort if I can help it.

 

[navmatt]

Speaking of starters. I hate spending tons of money on extract, and getting sticky crap all over my kitchen. I feel like I should be able to mash a bunch of wort at high gravity, store it indefinitely until I need a starter, then dilute and boil when it's time to make a starter.

My problem is whenever I try to store wort, it gets infected within a month despite using sealed sanitized containers. Maybe freezing it would help its shelf life?

Do a quick Google search for canning starters, been doing it for about 6 months and my life is much easier.

 

[bernerbrau]

FWIW I never like to pitch the starter wort if I can help it.

Yeah, I had started decanting and it turned out my yeast layer wasn't solid enough yet and it started pouring out with the wort. So I freaked out, remembered that my stirplate instructions had said "don't decant, you're just tossing out yeast when you do that", pitched what remained, and within an hour realized what I had done.

 

[bernerbrau]

And, as a side note, you may want to keep those infected jars of starter wort. If they're acidic and tart, they may contain bugs that you could in turn use to sour beers-- further adding to your repertoire of styles!

I read lacto is supposed to smell "sour but fresh" over on BYO. These kinda smell more "chicken 3 days past the expiration date" mixed with "shoulda thrown the milk out last week".

 

[JoePro]

I read lacto is supposed to smell "sour but fresh" over on BYO. These kinda smell more "chicken 3 days past the expiration date" mixed with "shoulda thrown the milk out last week".

Blech.

 

[Yooper]

I'd say there are probably two issues here. One could be not fully decanting the spent wort, and the other is probably temperature related. I'd make sure to monitor the actual wort temperature, not guessing that "it probably didn't get higher than 55-60" because the best lagers will generally ferment at 48-50.

A great way to do this is to chill the starter in the fridge for at least three days before brewing. On brewday, to chill the wort to 45 or so, and decant the spent wort from the yeast starter. Pitch the yeast (at 40-43 degrees) into the 45 degree wort and allow it to warm up to the lowest of the yeast strain's optimum fermentation temperature- usually around 48 degrees.

 

[Yooper]

The frustrating thing with that one was that I was using Anchor Steam yeast, which is supposed to be super low-ester and fermentable at ale temps.

I just caught this. I don't know why someone would think the Anchor Steam yeast would be super low-ester. It's not! It's got a real fruitiness to it, and it works great in steam beers. That's why a steam beer is so flavorful- the yeast character is different than a "real" lager yeast.

 

[JoePro]

I just caught this. I don't know why someone would think the Anchor Steam yeast would be super low-ester. It's not! It's got a real fruitiness to it, and it works great in steam beers. That's why a steam beer is so flavorful- the yeast character is different than a "real" lager yeast.

Good catch, Yoops.

 

[bernerbrau]

I just caught this. I don't know why someone would think the Anchor Steam yeast would be super low-ester. It's not! It's got a real fruitiness to it, and it works great in steam beers. That's why a steam beer is so flavorful- the yeast character is different than a "real" lager yeast.

Ah. Well that explains a bit.

 

[bernerbrau]

I just pulled a sample from my Victory Prima clone brewed with Czech bud (pre-lager), and there's no perceptible fruitiness in here despite it being very light. In fact, it tastes nearly spot-on with only a slight "heaviness" that's not present in real Prima.

This one, I pitched 3 vials (no time for a starter). I didn't really aerate, but after 3 days with no visible activity I raised the temp to 60 to get the yeast to start. As soon as it was going I put it back down to 48. So underpitching and aeration were still issues.

However, I also taped the probe to the carboy for the first time on this one. So I think that allowed me much better control over the wort temperature.

 

[robertjohnson]

Congratulations on your lager.

+1 to everything Yooper said. I actually insulate the probe against my carboy so it detects nothing but the beer temperature. Nothing fancy, at all actually, I just press the probe against the glass with a piece of foam that I cut out from an old couch and secure it there with a bungee cord. And even that still results in a couple degrees difference between measured and actual temperatures.

And, as has already been mentioned, you might want to chill the wort a few degrees below your ferment temp and then warm it to your ferment temp after you pitch. Apparently, the technique of pitching warm and chilling to ferment temp was mostly recommended due to the fact that homebrewers were consistently underpitching on lagers at the time this advice was offered. This advice is something of a half-measure; the real solution is to pitch more yeast below your ferment temp and let it warm. Since you did underpitch, this was probably the best way to do it this time around. I'd try these suggestions next time and see if you notice any improvements.

 

[bernerbrau]

Boy, I sure jinxed the hell out of my latest lager by coming in here and calling it nearly perfect.

After being kegged, it now suffers from the same issue as all my kegged light beers: a harsh, acrid bitterness and chemical tang that makes it nearly undrinkable.

To add insult to injury, despite a near perfect profile before kegging, I pick up a distinct fruit flavor on the nose. However, since the keg is pulling from the bottom of the beer and I was taking taste samples off the top, I have some hope that once the yeast settles out the fruitiness will go away.

My only other hope is that additional aging in the keg will fix the bitterness (as the beer has technically only just started lagering now), but prior experience says no.

 

[Yooper]

Boy, I sure jinxed the hell out of my latest lager by coming in here and calling it nearly perfect.

After being kegged, it now suffers from the same issue as all my kegged light beers: a harsh, acrid bitterness and chemical tang that makes it nearly undrinkable.

To add insult to injury, despite a near perfect profile before kegging, I pick up a distinct fruit flavor on the nose. However, since the keg is pulling from the bottom of the beer and I was taking taste samples off the top, I have some hope that once the yeast settles out the fruitiness will go away.

My only other hope is that additional aging in the keg will fix the bitterness (as the beer has technically only just started lagering now), but prior experience says no.

Darn it!

A "harsh, acrid bitterness and chemical tang" make me think of water chemistry.

What water did you use for this latest lager?

 

[bernerbrau]

Darn it!

A "harsh, acrid bitterness and chemical tang" make me think of water chemistry.

What water did you use for this latest lager?

Half tap, half distilled, dissolved a campden tablet in the tap water, and added 2g of CaCl2 and 50g of acid malt to the mash.

If it's water chemistry wouldn't I have picked up such an obvious flaw before it hit the keg?

I suppose the issue could be the keg lines too... A sample from the top of the keg would confirm that.

 

[Yooper]

If it's water chemistry wouldn't I have picked up such an obvious flaw before it hit the keg?

I suppose the issue could be the keg lines too... A sample from the top of the keg would confirm that.

Not necessarily! I had a kolsch that tasted fine out of the fermenter, but after lagering was harsh. It was 100% water chemistry- I had used tap water with good results in pale ales, so I thought the kolsch would be ok. It was nice looking- but it didn't taste very good!

A sample from the keg is a great idea! That will help nail it down.

What was the water profile you ended up with?

 

[bernerbrau]

What was the water profile you ended up with?

I'm not sure what you mean other than what I used to "build" my water profile:

Half tap, half distilled, dissolved a campden tablet in the tap water, and added 2g of CaCl2 and 50g of acid malt to the mash.

This is the most recent water report I can find for my area. If it's accurate then a 50/50 dilution should be OK.

I've also brewed with pure distilled water and combinations of gypsum and CaCl2, but no light beers, so I have no room for comparison.

 

[Yooper]

I'm not sure what you mean other than what I used to "build" my water profile:



This is the most recent water report I can find for my area. If it's accurate then a 50/50 dilution should be OK.

I've also brewed with pure distilled water and combinations of gypsum and CaCl2, but no light beers, so I have no room for comparison.

The water looks ok, especially if diluted 50% with RO water. Maybe for the next pilsner, try all RO water with no additions. That would eliminate one variable right there. I assume you didn't take a mash pH reading?

 

[bernerbrau]

The water looks ok, especially if diluted 50% with RO water. Maybe for the next pilsner, try all RO water with no additions. That would eliminate one variable right there. I assume you didn't take a mash pH reading?

I have a pH meter, but the storage solution had evaporated and it was covered with mold that day. Wasn't sure if I could get a good reading or not so I decided to skip it.

My currently fermenting Boston Lager clone uses 100% distilled water, so there's a possible data point for comparing water chemistry.

 

[bernerbrau]

Just pulled samples from the line and off the top with a turkey baster. Only had a small sip from each (gotta go to work) but the flavor is there in both, so I'm guessing it's probably not the lines. I also pick up a subtle fruit aroma from both.

Stuck them in the fridge to flatten out over a couple days to see if the carbonation is part of the issue.

 

[pjj2ba]

Have these lagers tasted esteriffic all the way to the last drop from the keg? I've been surprised by some lager yeasts and how fruity they taste. Last year I tapped a Czech pilsner, and of course the first few pints were a little cloudy with yeast. If I had been given these pints blind, I would have sworn they were a pale ale. I was very disappointed. However a few more pints and a couple more weeks in the fridge and it cleared up, the fruitiness went away and it ended up being a great Czech Pilsner. My Czech friend ended up drinking a lot of it herself!

If this isn't the issue, then it looks like you have your water down, so I would look at the fermentation temperature. A couple years ago I made a bubblegummy lager, and I've had some made by others, and in those cases, the beers were fermented a bit on the warm side for a lager.

 

[bernerbrau]

Have these lagers tasted esteriffic all the way to the last drop from the keg? I've been surprised by some lager yeasts and how fruity they taste. Last year I tapped a Czech pilsner, and of course the first few pints were a little cloudy with yeast. If I had been given these pints blind, I would have sworn they were a pale ale. I was very disappointed. However a few more pints and a couple more weeks in the fridge and it cleared up, the fruitiness went away and it ended up being a great Czech Pilsner. My Czech friend ended up drinking a lot of it herself!

If this isn't the issue, then it looks like you have your water down, so I would look at the fermentation temperature. A couple years ago I made a bubblegummy lager, and I've had some made by others, and in those cases, the beers were fermented a bit on the warm side for a lager.

Yep - I'm talking baked-in esters to the last drop here.

Right now I've got 2 lagers on tap. One tastes, no exaggeration, like a saison, it's that fruity. I'm likely going to disconnect the keg once it gets carbed, and store it at room temp for a couple months to see if that helps anything.

The other, I taped the temperature probe to the carboy during fermentation. I'm guessing that helped with my temps, because I didn't detect any fruit until it hit the keg. So suspended yeast could be a possibility. However, when pulling a sample from the top of the keg, I smelled fruit as well, so I don't know that it's pulling any yeast from the bottom.

My other problem with the second beer is that as soon as it hit the keg I got this harsh, acrid flavor that's blocking out any and all subtle pilsner goodness. I'm degassing a sample now to see if carbonic acid is the issue.

 

[bernerbrau]

Is it possible the harsh bitter taste in my lager is sulfur? I'm doing some more reading on lagers and it seems like sulfur is a normal byproduct of lagers before extended cold conditioning. Since I didn't lager before kegging (planned on lagering in the keg), I suppose it makes sense if there's still sulfur in it, especially for a really light pilsner.

However, that makes me wonder:

1. If it's just sulfur from the lager yeast that I'm tasting, why wouldn't I have tasted it before kegging?
2. If the lager is pressurized in the keg, does that mean the sulfur isn't being allowed to off-gas?
3. The lagering phase is often referred to as "the yeast cleaning up after themselves." I got rid of a good deal of suspended yeast in the first few pours of this. Will I need to add extra yeast to complete lagering?

 

[ghpeel]

I'm thinking its water chemistry. I know a lot of really experienced brewers swear by using their local water, but the problem with a water report is that it does NOT guarantee anything about the water on the day you brewed. The utility company often has to route water from very different sources over a given period, and I just don't trust that the water is 100% inline with the report.

Here's what I propose if you want a baseline lager:
Cut 6 parts RO water with 1 part "Spring" water (from the grocery store)
Do a single hop addition for bittering, boil for 90min
Shoot for an average gravity (1.050 ~ all Pils malt) and low-average IBU's (20-25)
Use 2 packets of w34/70, rehydrated in water
Do a diacytl rest after 8-10 days of fermentation or around gravity 1.020
Crash and lager in a secondary for a month

Using predictable dry yeast eliminates the variance in worrying about starter cell counts, and the water above should be very "soft" and good for malty lagers. If you do the steps above and there's still a problem, then look into checking the temps of your fridge. Perhaps the temp controller is off and its fermenting at 60 instead of 50?

 

[Vuarra]

Has anyone considered the kegging system itself? I just cleaned out a s***load of disgustingness from my pressure regulator (seems that I ended up drawing some beer in there a year and some ago, and it... well, it might have gotten infected. Go figure.

Sorry, no pictures, but if samples before kegging are excellent, and after kegging are blech, then I would suggest there is *something* in the kegging process that is going astray.

 

[bernerbrau]

Well, I'm now getting detectable amounts of what I think is the same bitter off-ness in my Boston Lager clone, which is currently dry-hopping in secondary, so I'm wondering if part of the problem is lagering in the keg. I'm gonna rig an airlock up to the gas QD on the keg that's giving me issues, let it off-gas for a month and see if that helps at all.

Meanwhile I've got another keg that I'm about ready to dump. Before putting anything new in it, I was gonna try making seltzer in the keg. If I get the same "offness" after kegging tap water, I'll definitely check my gas lines and regulators.

By the way, how are you cleaning the regulators out? Just taking them apart and putting them back together?

 

[Vuarra]

By the way, how are you cleaning the regulators out? Just taking them apart and putting them back together?

Exactly. You might want to consider using some disinfectant or spray cleaner when you do it.

 

[bernerbrau]

OK. I just bought a carbonator cap, and hooked it up to a 2-liter with the gas line from the off tasting keg. It's sitting at 30 PSI to carb, but when I had a sample after shaking for a few minutes under pressure, the harsh bitterness wasn't there. It just tasted like seltzer. I'm going to let the bottle carb fully and check again. If it's still not off, my wife never has to buy club soda again, but it also means my regulators are OK... so the next step would be to carb water in the keg and see if the issue might be the keg itself.

 

[cosmo]

Bernerbrau, the harsh, acrid flavor you describe sounds a lot like extract twang. I know you are doing all-grain. Some people have had this with all-grain also and I believe it is the same effect as extract twang. I just have not been able to make a definative link.

Check out this thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f37/extract-twang-what-54434/

The other thing that is remarkably similar is the timing. I always get this flavor show up a few weeks after start of fermentation, either in the fermenter or the keg. It's possible that oxidation could be an issue. You said you aerated before chilling down to 50. Also, did you stir the wort at all while it was cooling? This may be all speculation, but worth asking.