English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?

[DuncB]

My only brewing experience using Manuka smoked malt in a porter has taken 2 years to mellow. It's a complex sipper but not a quaff down several pints as porters must have done years ago. I'd love to make a piwo grodziskie but I can't get the smoked wheat malt.
I'm not up for the malting and smoking the wheat malt project .

 

[Peebee]

@Peebee Well said. Many of the things you state are well-documented, ...

Thank you. Hopefully my previous post fills in some gaps in my "essay"?

The "pale" malt taking the place of much of the "brown" malt before 1800 should have put paid to the diastatic "brown malt", although some diastatic malt would have continued on a small scale. There could have been attempts to make "brown malt" darker to make up for the lower colour due to using less of it. There was certainly an increase of malthouse fires, such that by end of 19th C. insurance for malthouses making brown malt was getting prohibitively costly.

In my diagram I show this as "brown malt" splitting up and the brown malt bit being kilned enough to destroy its "diastatic" capacity, the "diastatic" branch becoming extinct (I know not when, but that would have been irrelevant to what I was trying to illustrate) and "diastatic amber malt" creating a branch until it too died out (before the brown malt).

I could not tie down a date for most brewers transitioning over to cylindrical rotating kiln brown malt. Going by Ron's work I guess transition was complete in the 1920s, but started quite late, about 1860-1880? I "guess" for individual recipes/brewers: 18%ish or more brown malt still "historical", 15%ish or less brown malt is "modern". Quite arbitrarily really!

And (when I come to it) I'll use Ron's work to "arbitrarily" decide whether smoke flavour was purposely added or not (after 1850?). But all historical brown malt will have some smokiness whatever people say! I've had whisky made from hornbeam smoked malt, (hornbeam being the "default" "smokeless" burning wood) and my current favourite whisky (Craigellachie) is famously "coke smoked" malt. Never had straw smoked whisky though!


[EDIT: I should have added the proviso of: I'm referring to London and UK history. Things would progress differently elsewhere. For example: In the USA they were still producing plenty of "Porter" before the Prohibition, but goodness knows what "brown malt" they used or how they made it.]

 

[Peebee]

... In this post it sounds as if by 1880 they were still using a brown malt that might have been diastatic https://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2022/05/last-bit-on-malt-1880-1914.html ...

I've just been reacquainting myself with that article. I'm quite happy my "essay" parallels it quite well ... but hardly surprisingly as I rely on Ron's scribblings for much of my own knowledge!

But there's one bit I don't agree with much, and it happens to be the subject you want better definition of. That of "Brown Malt":

Making it "diastatic": Why! It hasn't been the primary source of diastatic activity since late 1700s. But more colour and flavours were required because the pale malt wouldn't provide it. Colour was also to come from sugar (post-1847) and black malt (post-1817), but more flavour? So, I'd speculate they darkened the brown malt by roasting it at higher temperature, making it non-diastatic in the process. And turn up the fire risk making it!

All brown malt must have popped a bit when made, but doing it on purpose seemed to have been a London thing ... French & Jupps, they are still around! But they don't make that type of brown malt no-more. I have been in touch with them but neglected to follow up (they seemed very helpful).

This was the character who provided much of my opinion of "brown malt" (and "blown malt"):

https://brewingbeerthehardway.wordpress.com/category/brown-malt/

(There are other sources outlining brown malt making, but Mr Dyment seems the most enthusiastic!).

 

[Peebee]

My only brewing experience using Manuka smoked malt in a porter has taken 2 years to mellow. It's a complex sipper but not a quaff down several pints as porters must have done years ago. I'd love to make a piwo grodziskie but I can't get the smoked wheat malt.
I'm not up for the malting and smoking the wheat malt project .

I remember the Manuka (and honey) from when I was there. But mainly I remember the wasp stings as they gathered around the manuka!

 

[Colindo]

Products from "stewing" (like in crystal and Munich malts) for another.

Hmm, must have missed that one. Was it really a stewed malt? Most description, especially when it comes to blown malt, which might or might not have been the same, describe a very dry malt that was treated with lots of heat. It is acutally quite easy to get pale malt to pop in the oven (10 mins at 170°C), but of course it is then not diastatic anymore. Might have to try different approaches with lower temperatures at some point.

But more colour and flavours were required because the pale malt wouldn't provide it.

Well, there are also sources stating that with the rise of black malt, the colour was as it once used to be, but the flavour was much lacking. So it might just be that the brown malt stayed the same and the flavour diminished.

 

[Peebee]

Hmm, must have missed that one. Was it really a stewed malt? ...

No. But it was kilned quite damp ... apparently? Or all the suggestions are, it was done as quick as possible. The malt bed would be at varying temperatures. pockets of "crystal" products could form. Munich malts also begin kilning relatively damp. Relative to pale malt that is. Products like found in Munich malts would have the time to form ... in places. It must have been far from a uniform malt like today. Check that Durden Park recipe I posted earlier; 50 years old and they (Dr John Harrison et-al) knew to include Crystal Malt in their emulation of historic brown, all the serious attempts to emulate the brown malt do likewise. Francois Dyment ("Brewing Beer the Hard Way" blog) talks of it. Together, I was convinced!

The picture on the cover of Francois' book if of his "brown malt".

I am not in a position to attempt historical style malting. So, gather as much information as I can, especially from those who can do such experimenting, and attempt to fabricate the end result. It's a bit of a leap into the dark, but it's guaranteed to be more interesting than using modern kilned "brown malt". I think you have come across my emulation attempts already. I intend to publish it here soon. Perhaps don't be too dissmisive about it ... it's too big a project for just me ... I'm trying to get others interested.

... So it might just be that the brown malt stayed the same and the flavour diminished.

Yes it might be that. ... Or it might not be. Which do you chose?

 

[Colindo]

@Peebee I'm still not convinved about the flavour components of historic brown malt. The descriptions I know speak of a kilning process that made sure the grain was very dry before increasing the heat, which sounds like a dry roasting to me. How wet it was before that compared to pale malt, I do not know.

I'm trying to follow your argument here. I bought the Durden Park booklet and it arrived this week. They describe a way to make historic brown malt by roasting pale malt in an oven. No mention of moisture. In the text they speak of some flavours similar to crystal malt which they found in their own experiments. They do not state what these were, so it's not possible to understand what they found. Similarly, the recipe you linked just has an ingredient list. No explanations, nothing. To me such links are useless as sources.

I know of the blog by Dyment, but do not recall any mentioning of crystal-malt-like flavours. Was that discussed in his book?

I would be much more interested in a good collection of all the descriptions of how brown malt was made in a coherent post. That way everyone would be able to have a look at the sources and discuss their interpretations. Just stating what you think should be done is like starting the discussion from the back. It's just tidbit work for everyone with little basis for mutual understanding.

 

[Peebee]

@Colindo: I thought I was starting from the back? I know it's my method of designing fabrications that become the target of derision, so was leaving that until last! I never found a clear instruction of making historical brown malt, but Francois Dyment's work seemed to come closest. You really need his book (it's not cheap, but not mind-blowingly expensive either!), it isn't as difficult to read as his blog site.

Page 61; "The Melanoidin Family" ... "These malts differ from Pale and Lager malt in that they have a higher initial moisture content ... ". It goes on to describe the influence of a seemingly favorite of yours ... Maillard reactions! There's a whole section on Brown Malt! Such as (pg. 82): "I know of three different malts referred to as Brown malt which causes a lot of confusion among readers of historical recipes ... ". More specifically: " ... includes a 36 hour couch before it is kilned, a practice that is used in the production of Munich type malts". And crystal/caramel malts ...

You do need some grasp of time and scale to filter some of the information you are gathering, as the authors may not let on directly. For example. The descriptions for making brown malt in the Durden Park booklet is for 1970s homebrewers who only had access to pale malt, if they were lucky, and maybe a bit of black and crystal. Francois Dyment describes gasifiers for making brown malt ... a technology well outside the timeline for historical brown malt, but one that is very valuable in the scale he is working with.



I'm past (distressingly quickly!) my most active days of "experimental brewing". I'm just writing this stuff up that someone will pick it up and run with it. And I'm well aware the writing is thin on references!

 

[Peebee]

I've been reviewing the material I'm hoping to summarise here (I linked much of it a few posts back). There's mountain of it! I think I'll just get a couple of posts done to summarise it and not get diverted. Then figure out a way of not letting the original source vanish (I'm probably being over-dramatic thinking it might).

But my main purpose for describing the "brown malt" stuff is providing a way anyone can deal with recipes containing historical brown malt (that means nearly all such pre-20th C. recipes carefully deciphered by Ron Pattinson) without going to the immense effort of actually trying to make the stuff from scratch. Whether my methods are right or wrong, they are dozens of times nearer the truth than continuing to use "modern" brown malt (as if "brown" accurately pin-points anything!).

 

[Colindo]

Hmm, I'm inclined to believe the 36h couch, since I'll probably find a statement with it somewhere along Ron's blog posts. But that makes it a stewed malt like Imperial malt. To get a crystal malt you would need to couch at exactly 65-70°C, which I find very unlikely in a historical context. I'm pretty sure one of the reasons crystal malts showed up late was that you need accurate temperature controll to get the complete saccharification inside the grain. This is btw unrelated to a cristallised grain, this also happens during standard roasting.

So I think a simple mixture of Imperial malt with brown malt would be a fine starting point for historic brown malt, and I believe this has been discussed and tried in this thread before.

Also, what I meant with coherent posting was that here, where you start the story again from the beginning, you go with the order "Sources - Description - Interpretation". That is makes it the easiest for others to scrutinise your statements, which is why that's how it's done in science. The way you are doing it now, however, is a story-telling method, where you state what you understand in a top-to-bottom order. At least that's how I see it. This is great for an article about Brown malt, not so much for a live discussion.

 

[McMullan]

"modern" brown malt (as if "brown" accurately pin-points anything!)

Isn’t there any use for the brown malt produced today? I have a few kg of the stuff. Should I throw it away?

https://crispmalt.com/malts/brown-malt/

Has anyone challenged Crisp or any other maltster to reproduce a pre-20th century brown malt?

 

[Colindo]

@McMullan Modern brown malts are fine in many recipes from Porter and Stout to some pale beers like Brown Ale.

The modern brown malt is already a rarity, so I would doubt if any maltster would be prepared for something even more special. "Modern" brown malt means 1850+, since for a long time it was only the London brewers that kept using the old brown malt and many others used either the modern stuff or no brown malt at all.

 

[DuncB]

Just checking is this the English ales- what's your favourite recipe thread?
Or the how to modify sugars and malts thread?
Relevant I appreciate, but a little off the main line.
Minority niche malt and sugar abusers of late.
Not to say it isn't interesting and the knowledge, but all those other forum members won't find out about, brown malt everything you didn't know.
Sugar you can invert it from clear to dark in your own time.
Perhaps time to have some separate threads?
There's a lot of information hidden in 5000+ posts but it's not all brown and sweet.

 

[Peebee]

That's better! I thought everyone had fallen asleep. (And my writing might be a bit soporific at times).

Isn’t there any use for the brown malt produced today? I have a few kg of the stuff. Should I throw it away?

I know you're playing devil's advocate.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/english-ales-whats-your-favorite-recipe.472464/post-10344750

And the stout's it talks about (and it'll probably be April before I get round to them) I say I'll be using Crisp brown malt. After stating "nothing controversial". (I got that bit wrong!).

And a big piccie of Sam Smith's stout (I'd never tried it until last Xmas despite living for a couple of years within sniffing distance). It's great having some "real" English Stout instead of the pretend stuff from Guin... . Is that Sam Smith's stuff what we can get decent yeast out of?


I should make clearer definitions: I'm stretching it a bit with "historical" and "modern". The split started about 180 years ago, and what passes as "modern" now seems to have changed to something quite unlike what I'm putting across as "modern".

 

[beren]

Just checking is this the English ales- what's your favourite recipe thread?
Or the how to modify sugars and malts thread?
Relevant I appreciate, but a little off the main line.
Minority niche malt and sugar abusers of late.
Not to say it isn't interesting and the knowledge, but all those other forum members won't find out about, brown malt everything you didn't know.
Sugar you can invert it from clear to dark in your own time.
Perhaps time to have some separate threads?
There's a lot of information hidden in 5000+ posts but it's not all brown and sweet.

Yeah. Looking back the true title is “all things British beers, historic and modern: recipes, methods, recreation, and discussion.”

 

[beren]

And a big piccie of Sam Smith's stout (I'd never tried it until last Xmas despite living for a couple of years within sniffing distance). It's great having some "real" English Stout instead of the pretend stuff from Guin... . Is that Sam Smith's stuff what we can get decent yeast out of?

I believe white labs has the sam smith strain. Wyeast has a different Yorkshire

 

[DuncB]

Yeah. Looking back the true title is “all things British beers, historic and modern: recipes, methods, recreation, and discussion.”

Sorry must have missed that under the banner title from the op in 2014.
Pour some " brown" sugar on me for that.

 

[McMullan]

Just checking is this the English ales- what's your favourite recipe thread?
Or the how to modify sugars and malts thread?
Relevant I appreciate, but a little off the main line.
Minority niche malt and sugar abusers of late.
Not to say it isn't interesting and the knowledge, but all those other forum members won't find out about, brown malt everything you didn't know.
Sugar you can invert it from clear to dark in your own time.
Perhaps time to have some separate threads?
There's a lot of information hidden in 5000+ posts but it's not all brown and sweet.

A proper English ale without invert sugar? It goes in all my favourite English ale recipes. There’s a place for it in this thread, imo. There are already a number of invert threads on HBT, but they don’t do English ales much justice, because they offer poor advice. In the context of English ales, the best advice re invert sugars is found in this thread, where it has more chance of being found and to become useful to anyone interested in English ale recipes.

 

[Peebee]

To get a crystal malt you would need to couch at exactly 65-70°C, which I find very unlikely in a historical context.

Absolutely. You spread your grains, light a damn great bonfire underneath it, and some grain falls into the 65-70C range ... and most doesn't! Try your best to keep the temperature uniform, but it's flippin' hot work. Result! "Brown Malt" ... or whatever else you want to call it.

As for "coherent posting", it loses coherency when I start trying to answer questions! I never meant to get to the "controversial" bits until after I'd described the "playing field". I'd better shut up for a bit and gather some "non-controversial" stuff together.

 

[Bramling Cross]

You're bitter looks wonderful, to me. My only question is on the final hop addition, and estimated IBUs. You've got 30 IBUs, but then the 1 oz. of EKG at knockout. Not sure how long, if any, you're doing a hop stand there, but depending how long and what temp, these will add IBUs. In my case my typical whirlpool/HS additions are a 30 minute steep, and if so, I'm getting 8.2 additional IBUs, for a total of 38.2 IBUs.

Did you intend for higher than 30 IBUs overall?

My KO additions really are KO additions, with aroma and flavor being their entire point.

The KO addition goes in, power is cut to the elements, the wort stands for about 1min while I apply plastic wrap to the top of the kettle and around the immersion chiller's neck, then the chiller is turned on full bore and the whirlpool valves are re-opened. WIthin 3-4mins the top of the wort is below 170F/76C and isomerization ceases.

You're correct in assuming that there is IBU creep, but I will suggest that it is negligible--and, after 30 years of brewing, I'm quite certain that I have a better feel for that hop creep than the dubious algorithms used by software. As a Beersmith user, I think the application ascribes far, far too many IBUs to whirlpool additions. But I write that knowing that my rig is optimized to crash quickly. Mr. Smith has to guestimate everyone's chilling efficiency, and that's no easy task!

 

[Bramling Cross]

And I'll strongly agree. To reach perfection, do you keep and serve the beer at cellar temperature with plans to serve it through a beer engine?

I have constructed what we in the Mid-Atlantic region of the East Coast would call a "Hooptie" beer engine. I believe in the UK this contraption might be called a "Cowboy" engine.

It fails the authenticity test, but it does push the ale with atmospheric air through a pump (once I've dispensed the ale from a keg into the infernal contraption).

I'm doing my level best, but I live in an apartment with space for one keg fridge that needs to keep UK ales, the occasional US ale, and quality US lagers, with the odd Continental lager thrown in for those times when I absolutely want to be boring.

Typically, I dispense into the infernal contraption, let it warm up for 20min, then ram it through the pump. Certainly not ideal, but it's the best I can do, given that I never, ever, under any circumstances want to own a house.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

My KO additions really are KO additions, with aroma and flavor being their entire point.

The KO addition goes in, power is cut to the elements, the wort stands for about 1min while I apply plastic wrap to the top of the kettle and around the immersion chiller's neck, then the chiller is turned on full bore and the whirlpool valves are re-opened. WIthin 3-4mins the top of the wort is below 170F/76C and isomerization ceases.

You're correct in assuming that there is IBU creep, but I will suggest that it is negligible--and, after 30 years of brewing, I'm quite certain that I have a better feel for that hop creep than the dubious algorithms used by software. As a Beersmith user, I think the application ascribes far, far too many IBUs to whirlpool additions. But I write that knowing that my rig is optimized to crash quickly. Mr. Smith has to guestimate everyone's chilling efficiency, and that's no easy task!

OK, thanks for the clarification. I wasn't aware they stand only negligibly at elevated temps and that you kick on the IC immediately. I'd like to rethink some things myself accordingly.

 

[Peebee]

"Hooptie" beer engine

Stumped me. If I try to search it, I canna untangle it from all the Hooptie car engine results (I don't know what a Hooptie car engine is either).

Any more clues?

 

[Peebee]

... In the context of English ales, the best advice re invert sugars is found in this thread ...

I'm being a bit of a tart "liking" that post 'cos I put a good chunk on invert sugars in this thread. But I'm sure everyone here is beginning to catch on by now ... I am a bit of a tart!

 

[DuncB]

I'm being a bit of a tart "liking" that post 'cos I put a good chunk on invert sugars in this thread. But I'm sure everyone here is beginning to catch on by now ... I am a bit of a tart!

Thought it was a Welsh cake, not a Welsh tart!

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Stumped me. If I try to search it, I canna untangle it from all the Hooptie car engine results (I don't know what a Hooptie car engine is either).

Any more clues?

Hooptie car engine sounds like my 2001 Skoda Octavia beater/daily commuter car. I've got a air intake tube "fixed' with gorilla tape, a brake line zip-tied to the under carriage because of a shaken off metal clip and some dubious electrical tape on the battery wire.
But, hey, it runs!

 

[Peebee]

Hooptie car engine sounds like my 2001 Skoda Octavia beater ...

Ah! Got it now. I was looking for a specific thing, and what @Bramling Cross was saying is he's "constructed" a knackered hand-pump! (He's done a "Cowboy" job of it). Adds up now ... sorry everyone for that interlude. (Sorry @Bramling Cross; commiserations for only having a knackered hand-pump!).

 

[DuncB]

There is a hand pump using a manual bilge / RV pump, could this be it?

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Yesterday I brewed up an AK I think I've mentioned here.
Hit all my numbers except pre boil SG due to reducing the amount of sparge water a bit too much in over-anticipation of the amount of water needed to adjust temp in the step mash.
Had to top up almost 2liter and lost a few gravity points there.
Easily solved with about 200g light malt extract though.

Sort of a 1890's inspired AK, can post recipe if anyone's interested.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Please can you post the recipe.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Please can you post the recipe.

By popular demand, here goes.
20L batch(about 21.5 in the kettle) 85% efficiency

Chevalier malt 2560g 78%
Flaked maize 230g 7%
Invert 2 490g 15%

Mash 60c/about 15 minutes
69c/90 minutes
Drain and recirculate first runnings once, sparge/mashout

Boil 90 min
EKG 60 min 50g
EKG 30 min 40g
Styrian Bobek 20g dry hop as fermentation slows down and I close the fermenter

OG 1.045
IBU BS calculated to 60, with about 10% less isomerisation with Chevalier I should be at about 55
FG dunno, expecting somewhere around 1.008-1.011
ABV some where around just under 5-5%

Water adjusted to Na 50mg/L So4 320 Cl 150 Ca 205

 

[Miraculix]

By popular demand, here goes.
20L batch(about 21.5 in the kettle) 85% efficiency

Chevalier malt 2560g 78%
Flaked maize 230g 7%
Invert 2 490g 15%

Mash 60c/about 15 minutes
69c/90 minutes
Drain and recirculate first runnings once, sparge/mashout

Boil 90 min
EKG 60 min 50g
EKG 30 min 40g
Styrian Bobek 20g dry hop as fermentation slows down and I close the fermenter

OG 1.045
IBU BS calculated to 60, with about 10% less isomerisation with Chevalier I should be at about 55
FG dunno, expecting somewhere around 1.008-1.011
ABV some where around just under 5-5%

Water adjusted to Na 50mg/L So4 320 Cl 150 Ca 205

Sounds good to me! But depending on the vintage, the chevallier can be very harsh when drunk fresh. I've had both, one vintage that was heavenly from the start and then another vintage then was like a completely different grain. Needed aging but then it was nice. So be prepared to maybe keep the mild for longer and not to drink it "mild". With that much ibus it might be beneficial anyway. Too high for my liking. I've brewed a mild like this before and it was nice after six months.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I think this is the '22 vintage.
Have brewed a 1885 Kirkstall L with it before.
No prolonged aging, think it sat in the keg for 4-5 weeks before I started it and didn't notice any harsh grainy flavours.
Most AK recipes I've seen from that period using Chev as the primary malt have had IBU's in the just under to just over 1:1 ratio.
I felt when drinking that historical mild that it probably can handle quite a bit more IBU than a regular modern barley malt can.
Will let is sit a few more weeks than usual though.

 

[kmarkstevens]

If anyone has a amazon link to a specific hand pump, I would greatly appreciate it. I tried to do a cowboy set up with an RV pump, which had a really wierd reverse thread that I could never get to connect. A well carbonated keg would dispense a few pints from the pressure in the keg but that was about it.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Look for Pint365 and Mason's. I think they have done some models in collaboration also. Angram is a more premium maker, but all those seem to be well regarded producers of beer engines.

Just beware that you might have to order from England if you can't find any on amazon, I know themaltmiller.co.uk have some as I had an Idea to set up a beer engine awhile ago but had to abandon the idea due to time, money and space constraints.

@McMullan has a fair shair of knowledge about this stuff...

 

[eshea3]

If anyone has a amazon link to a specific hand pump, I would greatly appreciate it. I tried to do a cowboy set up with an RV pump, which had a really wierd reverse thread that I could never get to connect. A well carbonated keg would dispense a few pints from the pressure in the keg but that was about it.

I've got a Angrams for sale. Through the counter models not clamp on. Be willing to give you a good price if interested.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

@Miraculix
You have used Simpson's Imperial Malt quite a bit, yes?
I noticed one of my online shops stock it, and was pondering the idea of buying a 2kg bag to try it out. How and in what types of beers have you brewed with it?

Will probably at first do a basic 1.040 Yorkshire-ish type bitter with it, omit the crystal and replace it with 20% Imperial, and some invert ofc.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I reckon when looking at late 1800's/early 1900's recipes, when amber malt is called for, it was likely something fairly close to Imperial malt.
At least from what I can gather googling around a bit.

 

[Miraculix]

@Miraculix
You have used Simpson's Imperial Malt quite a bit, yes?
I noticed one of my online shops stock it, and was pondering the idea of buying a 2kg bag to try it out. How and in what types of beers have you brewed with it?

Will probably at first do a basic 1.040 Yorkshire-ish type bitter with it, omit the crystal and replace it with 20% Imperial, and some invert ofc.

Ahhh it is a lovely malt! Probably the most underrated malt out there. It makes a really good addition to anything which should be malty. I used it in porters and stouts and it really shines there. I can also see it at about 30-50% in a brown ale or in an old ale. Basically anything where you want some good maltyness.

Never used it in a bitter though, but 20% of the grist would be my starting point as well. Just base malt plus the 20% would be good I guess. You could also bring in invert sugar but I would certainly skip any crystal, at least for the first tryout.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

Gonna order some then, have to restock my sugar chest aswell with some quality light and dark muscovado. The idea with the bitter is to use it in a neutral grain bill to really see what it brings to the table.
If I like it I might use it in that 1900 Whitbread single stout as the 20% amber it has in the recipe.