Sounds great. Do you get similar results when you use flaked oats in a pale beer? I used to use more unmalted grains in certain bitters, to get what I called a touch of "fresh field" flavor from the graininess. But haven't used the GN Oats yet.
English Ales - What's your favorite recipe?
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I would say that yes, I do tend to get similar haze levels using unmalted flaked oats. Not something I usually try with my English style beers, the GN Oats was a bit of an experiment to try and boost FG a little and bring a sort of "breakfast bar" sweet malty character I find they sometimes throw when I use them in heavily hopped beers. It did that albeit to a smaller degree than I expected, but given the cost seems to have been completely ruining clarity I'll just revert to using Cara Gold in 5-10% quantities as that does basically the same.
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
Well that's because they're just not really a thing - I think they're a bit like wee heavies and ESB in being more of a thing in the US than in the UK. Perhaps comparing them to California Common gives an idea of their insignificance - well at least before Anchor Steam disappeared, you had that one big commercial brand but not many people felt compelled to follow them. Here you have Newky Brown which had its heyday 25+ years ago but which has now been completely wrecked by Heineken, there's Mann's which isn't drunk by anyone under 75 and then there's the Sam's one which is practically invisible here. And that's about it.
And those three don't really have much in common stylistically beyond the name.
Don't forget about Five Points brown, Thornbridge and a few others offering slightly stronger, not very dark milds that could also be called "brown ale".
But yeah, doesn't strike you as a wildly popular or available style of beer in it's supposed country of origin.
But yeah, doesn't strike you as a wildly popular or available style of beer in it's supposed country of origin.
Don't forget about Five Points brown, Thornbridge and a few others offering slightly stronger, not very dark milds that could also be called "brown ale".
But yeah, even though there are some around, it seems to be more of a thing in the states, likely
But yeah, even though there are some around, it seems to be more of a thing in the states, likely
My son gets married next month and his reception is at the Five Points brewery near where he lives. I’ll try the Brown Ale then. Here’s the ingredients
Brick Fields Brown Ale
ABV
5.4%
HOPS
Willamette
MALTS
Maris Otter, Amber, Golden Naked Oats, Crystal (Light), Brown, Crystal (Dark) and Chocolate
Brick Fields Brown Ale
ABV
5.4%
HOPS
Willamette
MALTS
Maris Otter, Amber, Golden Naked Oats, Crystal (Light), Brown, Crystal (Dark) and Chocolate
Willy
Active Member
Haha. Agreed. That said I have a few English friends and they love, and claimed it for their country.
There you go! Commonwealth all over again!Haha. Agreed. That said I have a few English friends and they love, and claimed it for their country.
If you're going down the oats path, give the Briess Blonde RoastOats a go.
Cool. We carry them at our LHBS, didn't know much about them.
Kind of my ingredients, actually. I've been going with Fuggles at times, and haven't added amber yet. The Pale chocolate was just the once but of course I had other changes and couldn't tell what it added. I've also had Victory in most of them, went up to nearly 10% last time, but don't think I liked it that high. Seemed to overtake the rest of the flavors.
I've been using the Briess blonde oats since the GNO isn't available where I shop. I suspect they are at least comparable. Briess's site says you can use them up to 30%, sheesh. I've been doing under 10% when I have used them.
I wish I knew someone at Sam Smith's, peek at their ingredients list.
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
And they are vanishingly small production. But why not just call a spade a spade, and call them all milds?
Historically most brown ales were bottled mild with some extra caramel, the whole thing is a relatively recent phenomenon beyond the poetic use. Even if you treat Mann's and eg Harvey's Old Ale as some kind of southern grouping of the mild family, they're less different to the mainstream milds than you see within the bitter family going from Manchester and Yorkshire to the Thames Valley.
Wasn't it Martyn Cornell who argued that brown ale does not exist and that they should all be called "Strong dark Brittish beer" or some such in an article?
@Northern_Brewer
@Northern_Brewer
From now on, except being served in the already presented and by the consumer(me) arbitrary unit of "1 Erik", brown ales brewed by me will be known as"Premium mild" or "Strong mild".
This is the way.
This is the way.
I'm actually boiling my first attempt at a Dark Mild right now. Shooting for 1.035 OG 3.5%ish. Surprisingly similar grist.
MO, Crystal 120, Brown, Pale Chocolate, touch of Blackprinz.
Willamette, Fuggles and S04.
Boil smells amazing!
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
I've not seen that, but it sounds the sort of thing Martyn would say.
Colindo
Well-Known Member
I think you mean this one and it only speaks against several misconceptions such as "Northern" and "Southern" Brown Ale, not against the general idea that there is the group of sweet Brown Ales since Mann's in 1902 and the other group of stronger or dryer or darker Brown Ales. https://zythophile.co.uk/2011/03/31/why-theres-no-such-beer-as-english-brown-ale/
I have brewed darker bitters. They were darker bitters. Bitters that were a bit darker.
...Flensburger dunkel.... ganz schön.... dunkel.
...Flensburger dunkel.... ganz schön.... dunkel.
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
Ugg, sounds... not-great. I must admit, although there's been a bit of a fad of adding oats to modern-style bitters - notably 2017 CBOB Goat's Milk, I'm not much of a fan, partly because I think I'm a bit of an oat supertaster. Must be the Scottish blood! But with Goat's Milk it was interesting as I tasted it three times in 2017 - at Olympia, then at a local CAMRA festival a few weeks later, then at another festival in November or so. I suspect the second one was from a batch they rushed through the brewery to take advantage of the CBOB publicity, but then it had settled down by December as that second one had a distinct raw porridge taste to it which I assume was a lack of conditioning but could have been a change of oats. But it really wasn't pleasant to my taste, and a very different beer to the first and third versions. And that's a beer that is known to use some oats but isn't hazy, even if it isn't quite crystal clear either, so can't be using that much.
Anyway, that's why I'm wary of oats in cask beer - at the very least, condition it out.
I'm preparing a starter to propagate 3.4g s04 for an 18 litre batch. Just to see how this yeast behaves when not used directly from dried form. I'm using 50% of oats, 50% pale malt as starter.... Man this mini mash is murky.
Oats are for breakfast porridge and horses! Possibly stouts in controlled portions.
And starters.
And maybe beer in general, I have to further evaluate the taste impact.
Colindo
Well-Known Member
50% sounds like quite a large value, even for a starter. I usually use 25% for that. Do you do a long 52°C rest for increased FAN content? Was thinking about doing that next time.
I found oats to barely have any flavour at all (never noticed what @Northern_Brewer described, but then never drank those beers overly fresh). They do contribute tons of glucane for that silky mouthfeel though, so if you are not careful you might get troubles with you run-off.
I did beers with 100% oat malt, which give esters that taste like yoghurt and raspberry. This does not happen at "normal" concentrations, though.
I do not believe this mouthfeel thing. I have tried it and could not detect anything at a blind A/B test. I do not remember the exact oat amount, but it was at least 20% of the grist, rest pale malt. The B version was 100% pale. Scott Janish also wrote about it later and pretty much also confirms that this mouthfeel thing only comes into play at amounts above 30%, which are detrimental to the head formation, so not advisable. For starters though, no problem. Starters would be best with 100% oats, but that is a bit... well, hard to handle.
I also could not detect a taste difference btw... But as @Northern_Brewer keeps saying that it really disurbs him when oats are in the beer, I am thinking that there was maybe something wrong with the test? Don't know. I will brew a pale bitter or mild on Sunday which will contain 10% oats and bittering hops only. So if I can taste the oats in a beer, I should taste it there.
Colindo
Well-Known Member
I only noticed the mouthfeel in 90-100% oat malt. Never just with oat flakes. But there will be an effect, it is just too small to notice on its own. So yeah, I also believe oatmeal stouts are overrated (and historically they should be done with <1% oatmeal anyway). But in a direct comparison with a beer without any oatmeal I believe 25% could be noticeable.
By the way, oat malt with hulls can taste grassy. I noticed that with oat malt from Thomas Fawcett and again at very high percentages.
Willy
Active Member
Hahaha. Exactly. Brewed OJW today (Outlaw Josie Wells brown ale again!!!)There you go! Commonwealth all over again!
Here is my brew graphic - spot on, right on target. 10 days and I will be drinking.
The spike at the end ???
(I transferred wort to the fermenter and reheated to clean with PBW. )
Attachments
Colindo
Well-Known Member
Not sure if this is interesting for everyone, but I just have to tell someone about my last brew.
On Sunday I brewed my very own version of a parti-gyle after considering a recipe for several months. I particularly thought about which aspects I want to scale through the range of beers I get and decided to do things a bit different to how Fuller's do it (my only reference so far). Fuller's scale IBUs much less than OG, while I wanted to cover a wider range of IBUs. I also went with less colourful malt to make the beers more of a similar colour, with the lowest gravity beer being coloured with brewer's caramel. And for hopping I wanted to use two very different aroma hops and see how the blending turns out. Finally, I also added some extra gypsum to the first gyle's boil to get some scaling in the water treatment, which will be interesting to see in the final beers.
I started with 8kg of malt (5% Crisp Caramalt, rest Golden Promise). Mashing and sparging just like Fuller's with a total of 7.4l of liquor per kg of malt. Due to the sizes of my pots I split the wort with 1/3 going into the first gyle and 2/3 into the second gyle. My estimation were almost spot on and I got 18l with 18°B and 33,8l with 5.6°B. The large split shows a good mash and sparge efficiency. For the IBU I estimated that, due to the disproportional protein distribution, I get less IBU than calculated in the first gyle and more IBU than calculated in the second gyle. After the boil I had 15l with 22°B and 45 IBU (52 IBU calculated), and 28.3l with 6.7°B and 25 IBU (21 IBU calculated). For aroma hops I used Tango in the stronger gyle and Savinjski Golding in the weaker gyle. Bittering hop was Target.
I ended up blending into four different worts:
On Sunday I brewed my very own version of a parti-gyle after considering a recipe for several months. I particularly thought about which aspects I want to scale through the range of beers I get and decided to do things a bit different to how Fuller's do it (my only reference so far). Fuller's scale IBUs much less than OG, while I wanted to cover a wider range of IBUs. I also went with less colourful malt to make the beers more of a similar colour, with the lowest gravity beer being coloured with brewer's caramel. And for hopping I wanted to use two very different aroma hops and see how the blending turns out. Finally, I also added some extra gypsum to the first gyle's boil to get some scaling in the water treatment, which will be interesting to see in the final beers.
I started with 8kg of malt (5% Crisp Caramalt, rest Golden Promise). Mashing and sparging just like Fuller's with a total of 7.4l of liquor per kg of malt. Due to the sizes of my pots I split the wort with 1/3 going into the first gyle and 2/3 into the second gyle. My estimation were almost spot on and I got 18l with 18°B and 33,8l with 5.6°B. The large split shows a good mash and sparge efficiency. For the IBU I estimated that, due to the disproportional protein distribution, I get less IBU than calculated in the first gyle and more IBU than calculated in the second gyle. After the boil I had 15l with 22°B and 45 IBU (52 IBU calculated), and 28.3l with 6.7°B and 25 IBU (21 IBU calculated). For aroma hops I used Tango in the stronger gyle and Savinjski Golding in the weaker gyle. Bittering hop was Target.
I ended up blending into four different worts:
- 21l of Dark Mild, OG 1.036 and 28 IBU, with caramel added.
- 6l of Best Bitter, OG 1.045 and 32 IBU.
- 12l of Strong Bitter, OG 1.055 and 35 IBU.
- 3l of leftover first gyle, turned into a Barley Wine with OG 1.085 and 45 IBU.
There seems to be a threshold that needs to be crossed for the beta glucans to be noticable. According to Scott's quoted studies, it should not be reached below 30% oats in a "normal" wort.
Regarding FAN, I forgot to mention that I intenionally did not boil the starter wort. I raised the temperature to about 75 C, so it is safely pasturised, but it was below hot break temperature. This means all the amino acids are still in solution and can be yeast food.
Colindo
Well-Known Member
@Miraculix I guess you are referring to this page? Sounds as if below a certain grist ratio there are just too many other components in wort that determine viscosity, and only for more than 18% you get a significant effect from the glucane. Thanks for pointing that out.
Never thought about not boiling a wort. Are you sure it's the FAN that precipitate during the boil and not the much longer protein chains? I thought it was the latter.
Never thought about not boiling a wort. Are you sure it's the FAN that precipitate during the boil and not the much longer protein chains? I thought it was the latter.
Yes, that one!
Afaik, the yeast is able to metabolize these proteins if they are still present in the wort. When flocked out, they are basically mainly unaccessible. I have read in multiple sources that "raw" (unboiled wort) ales are providing far more nutrients (free amino nitrogen) than boiled wort. Proteins are made up of amino acids so it makes sense that they are providing fan to the yeast, if not flocked out of solution.
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Remember what Samuel Johnson said about Oats.
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
Even I, with a foot either side of the border, wasn't going to go there....Remember what Samuel Johnson said about Oats.
My daughter is married to a Scot and lives in Glasgow. My grandson is a Scot. I’m up there next week.
I just found out that the supermarket next street carries all the billington sugars. So much beer to brew!
I've just bottled a blonde ale that was delicious directly out of the fermenter!
Maris otter, ten percent oats, ten percent carafoam and 15 percent Heller sirup (invert no. 1). 30 ibus, Perle hops, amount split 50/50 bittering/whirlpool, s04. Og 1.036.
I wanted to check if the carafoam works when a higher temperature rest point is incorporated.
I also found out what caused my almond beers. It was stale malt. This time, all the malt has been milled by myself directly prior brewing. What a difference.
No almond in sight this time!
Maris otter, ten percent oats, ten percent carafoam and 15 percent Heller sirup (invert no. 1). 30 ibus, Perle hops, amount split 50/50 bittering/whirlpool, s04. Og 1.036.
I wanted to check if the carafoam works when a higher temperature rest point is incorporated.
I also found out what caused my almond beers. It was stale malt. This time, all the malt has been milled by myself directly prior brewing. What a difference.
No almond in sight this time!
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Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
Geterbrewed are discontinuing Crisp in favour of Simpson and Munton, so are selling off most of their stock at half price. All the Otter has gone, Chevallier claims to be in stock but you can't select a weight, but they do have Plumage Archer and Hana at the equivalent of £1 (€1.16/US$1.25) per kg in 25kg bags, plus lots of speciality malts, chit malt etc. They straddle the Irish border so are EU-friendly.
https://www.geterbrewed.com/crisp-malt-brand/
https://www.geterbrewed.com/crisp-malt-brand/
Colindo
Well-Known Member
I checked out geterbrewed, but they want quite a lot for postage to Germany. The Dutch shop sbi4homebrew.com has most Crisp products except, unfortunately, the historic malts. So I will probably stick to that until I need more Chevallier. I still have some of the German-grown stuff left over from 2022...
I bought the authentic caramel from Natuurlijk and must say it is really great. I checked that it is purely non-fermentable sugars by diluting it to 11°P and adding some Nottingham and after four days it is still at the same gravity.
I had some leftovers from my clone of Young's Winter Warmer and while it has an awesome fruity flavour with 6% Black Treacle the colour is nowhere near right. With 3ml of Natuurlijk Burnt Sugar per pint I get just the right colour and an incredible flavour contribution. Some roundness from about 1° higher final gravity (0.35°P) and a small but noticeable burnt caramel flavour. Really love the stuff!
I bought the authentic caramel from Natuurlijk and must say it is really great. I checked that it is purely non-fermentable sugars by diluting it to 11°P and adding some Nottingham and after four days it is still at the same gravity.
I had some leftovers from my clone of Young's Winter Warmer and while it has an awesome fruity flavour with 6% Black Treacle the colour is nowhere near right. With 3ml of Natuurlijk Burnt Sugar per pint I get just the right colour and an incredible flavour contribution. Some roundness from about 1° higher final gravity (0.35°P) and a small but noticeable burnt caramel flavour. Really love the stuff!
Thanks for this- I needed a base malt stock-up before my next brew day, and it now looks like my red rye IPA is going to be on a Plumage Archer base.
Great. Now I have to buy some.
Colindo
Well-Known Member
@Miraculix My apologies
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