electric water softeners?

[AN_TKE]

I have hard water and currently bypass my softner for brewing. I am going to change from a conventional salt bag water softener to a clearwave electric water softener, which apparently alters the charge and adhesive properties of the calcium and magnesium ions, softening the water without actually removing or adding anything to the water.

Has anyone tried this technology with their brew water? If the calcium and magnesium are changed, will they contribute to water characteristics differently? I wonder if I should plumb a bypass loop for brew day, or if I should use the new "softened" water.

Any help?

 

[The Pol]

I think I know what you are talking about... it doesnt remove the minerals, but basically makes them so that they do not adhere to pipes, showers etc... in a way "softening" the water without actually taking the minerals out.

Those minerals will still be present and contribute to your water chemistry Id think. As far as brewing is concerned, it will be unsoftened water, the minerals are still there.

 

[AN_TKE]

My concern is that if the minerals behave differently in the pipeline, they may behave differently in the beer (mash) too. Perhaps a water test after the system is online would tell me something - detectable hardness = no difference in brew chemestry.

http://www.fieldcontrols.com/clearwavehd.php

not much technical info on the link, but for $150, it's woth a try.

 

[CodeRage]

Sounds a little bupkis to me... Kind of like putting magnets on your fuel lines for better gas mileage.

 

[AN_TKE]

It may very well be bupkis, but it's a cheap money experiment, with potential cost saving rewards. I found this whole thing after seeing an ad for easy water on the discovery channel. then i searched around and found the same concept (and same claims, etc.) by clearwave. Check out the super expensive version of the clearwave at easywater.com.

The main thing is that I don't want to waste a brew trying out this thing if it will have adverse effects like a water softener does.

 

[The Pol]

It may very well be bupkis, but it's a cheap money experiment, with potential cost saving rewards. I found this whole thing after seeing an ad for easy water on the discovery channel. then i searched around and found the same concept (and same claims, etc.) by clearwave. Check out the super expensive version of the clearwave at easywater.com.

The main thing is that I don't want to waste a brew trying out this thing if it will have adverse effects like a water softener does.

The issue with water softeners is that they:
#1 add sodium
#2 give you SOFT water

Neither of which are great for making beer.

The system you describe does none of the above, so I dont see how it can have the same adverse affects.

 

[CodeRage]

For 50 bucks more you could put an ro/di system in to feed the brewery and build your water profile how ever you want.

http://www.petstore.com/ps_viewitem...cse&utm_campaign=pscseggl2&utm_content=CP1331

I know you can find them cheaper than this too.

I have a real problem with sites that give you the dumbed down version of the process but don't make a clear description available. You can do a lot of neat things with RF but I don't understand how this could physically work. Not telling you not to try it, just that I wouldn't.

 

[AN_TKE]

I have an RO system with a little 2 gallon tank for our drinking water, used for arsenic removal, etc. The issue with an RO system is that you have to store the water you intend on using, since the process is slow and doesn't work on demand without a reservoir. My brewery is in my unheated, detached garage, so water storage is not feasible in the winter.

I'll post after I have this system running for a couple of weeks and let you know how this thing works. I have moderately hard water, 7 gpg (2008) and <200 ppm (2001) test results, so hopefully this will work as advertised (good for up to 25 gpg or 425 ppm). My fingers are crossed....

 

[AN_TKE]

After unplugging my conventional water softener and using the clearwave for a couple of weeks, I am glad to report that my water has not reverted to the hard water feel and latherability that I expected. The clearwave appears to be working! I'm not totally convinced yet, but initial testing appears successful!

I will report once more after I brew and taste again on this water.

 

[AN_TKE]

This thing doesn't work. Don't buy one. My water went back to its hard state after a few months, which i suspect was the amount of time it took my softener to run out of "charge".

BOOOOOO!

Coincidentally, the money back guarantee runs out in just about the same amount of time that it takes to figure out this thing is junk.

again, BOOOOOOOO!

 

[jdieter]

We tried this technology on one of our tower heat exchangers when I worked in the aluminum extrusion industry. I told the salesman we would install it and pay for the installed one and pruchase 5 more if the device worked as described, salesman agreed. It was fools gold as you found out, the salesman never came back to pick-up the test unit.
Take a look at aquarium RO setups, normally don't come with a holding tank and depending on you water pressure and temperature you'll get somewhere around 1gph out but you also put around 3-5 times that down the drain.

 

[ajdelange]

Have you tried Kangen water?

 

[AN_TKE]

it looks like they are way too expensive! Also, maybe i'm in the dark, but it seems like ionized water would be more marketed if it were really that beneficial.

 

[ajdelange]

It was a joke. Kangen water is not ionized (a physical impossibility despite their claims). To make Kangen water very inexpensively add a couple of drops of household bleach to your tap water. IOW I only mentioned it because it is as big a hoax as the clear water softeners - actually bigger as they are much more expensive.

 

[AN_TKE]

ha - i get it.

"there is no free lunch!"

 

[HighGravity]

My buddy just got one of those Kangen units, one option of which is to change the PH to 2.5, 5.5, 8.5 and another higher. The price was ridiculous but I now have the option of using water from him.

Does anyone think it would be a good cleaner/sanitizer? I thought 2.5ph was pretty low and the key to commercial cleaners, but I am not sure if simply using pure water with a low PH it will be strong enough to clean and sanitize.

BTW, I ran into someone who saw a similar unit as the Kangen for $200, which may make it worthwhile to purchase it is effective at adjusting the PH. My thought would to drink only high PH water due to my acidic diet of beer and junk food.

 

[ajdelange]

Kangen water is a hoax. What happens is that the sodium ions in your water (and if your water doesn't have enough you have to add salt) is reduced at the cathode: 2Na+ + 2e- --> 2Na and that reacts with water liberating hydrogen gas and hydroxyl ions: 2Na + 2H2O --> 2Na+ + 2OH- + H2. IOW at the cathode you get basic lye (sodium hydroxide) and hydrogen and the water near it is at high pH. At the anode the chloride ion is oxidized to chlorine gas: 2Cl- --> Cl2 + 2e-. The chlorine reacts with water: Cl2 + H2O --> HOCl + H+ + Cl- producing hypochloric acid (HOCl) and hydrochloric acid which is dissociated into chloride ions and hydrogen ions which produce a low pH near the anode. By the use of a membrane between anode and cathode the two solutions can be kept separate and one can draw of either the acidic or basic water or a blend. The blend is identical to household bleach solution (except much weaker). Some swimming pools are chlorinated using bleach prepared exactly this way.

So if you want something identical to Kangen water simply go to the store and buy unscented bleach and add a couple of drops to a quart of your water. If you want acid water identical to Kangen acid water add a couple of drops of hydrochloric acid to some dilute bleach solution. Actually, I do NOT recommend you do this because if you add too much the HOCl will disprportionate releasing chlorine gas (HOCl + HCl --> Cl2 + H2O). For acid water, especially for sanitizing, use phosphoric acid. For pH adjustment use lactic. Neither is particularly dangerous and both are available in food grade from you LHBS. If you want basic water for whatever reason add some pickling lime (available in food grade from your supermarket). The traditional source of alkalinity for those troubled by stomach acid is sodium bicarbonate. For $200 you can buy a lot bleach, bicarb, lime, phosphoric acid or lactic acid. Don't be taken in!

 

[AN_TKE]

how about Hydrocare. Anyone? Hydrocareus.com

This hydrocare actually makes me wonder about my judgement of the clearwave. The hydrocare site states that the unit will efectively work to remove scale, but won't make the water feel any different from untreated water. My assessment of the clearwave was based on the fact that the feel reverted back to untreated water after the softner lost charge. I wonder if it was working to prevent/eliminate scale while leaving the feel of the water unchanged.

It seems like there are quite a few different companies marketing units with slightly or completely different approaches to the problem. The question still remains though, for all of them: is there proof of their effectiveness?

Looking for a scientific explanation for whether this should or should not work. What say you ajdelange? Any opinion?

 

[ajdelange]

Their website does not respond - maybe the better business bureau shut them down. I was able to find an explanation of "how it works". It looks good, even mentioning standing waves and a formula which shows what the standing wave voltage should be but the formula is wrong - the voltage along a transmission line changes as a function of position and time. Also any currents would flow on the outer surface of the pipe - not on the interior surface where the water is. In addition to that the energies associated with quantum transitions of electrons in the water are much much greater than the energy associated with the 120 kHz field the device apparently uses. And so on. If this thing does work it is not by any means that I have ever seen described in any book or paper. If, and this is perhaps the bottom line, if the technique did work it would be listed in every book on water treatment published since the patents were filed on it.

 

[AN_TKE]

Good point - we'd see it everywhere I guess. I build municipal water treatment facilities and I suppose there is nothing even close to this that I have ever installed. Thanks for the responses.

 

[jdieter]

It did nothing to reduce scale in a cooling tower when I tried this technology. Prior to installing the device with the manufacturers guidance we cleaned the tower using our standard method of rodding the individual tube passages of all sediment followed by a mild acid flush and scale buildup still progressed at the same rate..... fools gold in my opinion

 

[AN_TKE]

anyone notice Hydrocare is now advertising on this website? pretty funny.

 

[AN_TKE]

unless....the google launched ad is targeting my every move!