Easy way to remove O2 to make blendwater for high gravity brewing?

[OzzyPeeps]

This question is about making O2 free "blendwater" to blend with high gravity brews like the big breweries do, but t the home brew scale.

What am I missing here ...?

I'm sure there is a reason this wouldn't work otherwise I would have heard of people doing it by now ... hopefully someone can explain this to me ...

What is to stop me removing all the oxygen in 19.5l of water by

1) just putting it in a keg with enough SMBS to be total overkill in scavenging all the O2 to negligible ppms - (like a kilo of the stuff if that's what it takes)

And then ...

2) pushing it through purged lines to my R.O. filter (to remove the sodium sulphate byproduct/excess SMBS) and then out through purged lines into a thoroughly purged keg?

Wouldn't that give us an easy way to produce pure, O2-free water which could be used as blendwater for high gravity brewing at the homebrew scale?

Even if you had to boil it first or "rinse and repeat" the whole thing, why wouldn't this work?

I have read that sulphiting water is problematic for RO treatment plants purifying drinking water at the industrial scale because the removal of oxygen can eventually encourage anerobic bacteria to hang out and party in the system - which makes sense at that scale for that purpose -

But if you were really worried about that, couldnt you just put a UV filter first in the chain right before the R.O. unit?

One like this?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/AquaHouse-...ocphy=1007901&hvtargid=pla-441631924776&psc=1

Theres no reason that would introduce oxygen would it?

@mabrungard

Any help explaining if I'm barking up the wrong tree is much appreciated.

Edit: I appreciate the rejection rate would mean I would need to use 5x the starting volume to get the final product but for my situation this is a non issue ...

Ozzy

 

[DuncB]

If you are going to dilute high gravity wort just after pitching yeast, I'd have thought get rid of chlorine with sodium metabisulphate, adjust salts and add it. You want your wort oxygenated for yeast growth. Also some high gravity brews and English ales are oxygenated a day or so after pitching.
Boiling the water should get the oxygen out, but as it cools diffusion gradient returns and then you oxygenate anyway to get healthy yeast.
You might be over concerned about an issue that isn't a problem.

 

[Red over White]

I only brew high gravity and here's my process for kegging no oxygen water. I boil the water, add SMB to scrub 3ppm O² and after 5 minutes and fully purging my counter flow chiller with the boiling water through the beverage disconnect, I fill the keg through the beverage out post in a single pass through the CFC while cooling.

Powdered SMB amount is calculated like this: 5ppm SMB is needed to scrub 1ppm O²

ppm SMB x liters ÷ 1000 = grams SMB
15x19.5=292.5÷1000=.29g

Potentially the waters Na would be increased by 3ppm and the So⁴ by 15ppm.

I hope this makes sense.

 

[OzzyPeeps]

If you are going to dilute high gravity wort just after pitching yeast, I'd have thought get rid of chlorine with sodium metabisulphate, adjust salts and add it. You want your wort oxygenated for yeast growth. Also some high gravity brews and English ales are oxygenated a day or so after pitching.
Boiling the water should get the oxygen out, but as it cools diffusion gradient returns and then you oxygenate anyway to get healthy yeast.
You might be over concerned about an issue that isn't a problem.

I'm talking about diluting the finished beer prior to packaging like the big boys ...

 

[OzzyPeeps]

I only brew high gravity and here's my process for kegging no oxygen water. I boil the water, add SMB to scrub 3ppm O² and after 5 minutes and fully purging my counter flow chiller with the boiling water through the beverage disconnect, I fill the keg through the beverage out post in a single pass through the CFC while cooling.

Powdered SMB amount is calculated like this: 5ppm SMB is needed to scrub 1ppm O²

ppm SMB x liters ÷ 1000 = grams SMB
15x19.5=292.5÷1000=.29g

Potentially the waters Na would be increased by 3ppm and the So⁴ by 15ppm.

I hope this makes sense.

Thank mate.

So essentially you just boil, calculate the SMB needed to scrub the O2 down to 3ppm and add it, and that is sufficient and you are not worried bout the byproduct?

Can you recommend a DO meter that won't break the bank? What's the minimum spend on that?

How much do you dilute the beer by?

And how long do you boil the water?

Edit, sorry, one last Q:

So theoretically after boiling there should only be 3ppm of O2 left, is that correct ?

And so 29g SMB per corny should scrub that?

I read somewhere that in practice boiling doesn't remove as much as theory ..

Have you tested the DO to check?

Thanks again,
Very helpful

 

[Red over White]

Thank mate.

So essentially you just boil, calculate the SMB needed to scrub the O2 down to 3ppm and add it, and that is sufficient and you are not worried bout the byproduct?

Can you recommend a DO meter that won't break the bank? What's the minimum spend on that?

How much do you dilute the beer by?

And how long do you boil the water?

Thanks again

I add 15ppm SMB to scrub 3ppm o2 that might possibly be picked up during the xfer as insurance. I am not worried about the byproduct at all. I dilute up to 35% before or after fermentation, but I haven't diluted after fermentation in a long while. I just prefer the less esters & maltier expression of diluted in the fermenter vs the smoother bitterness of diluting at package and slightly more esters. I boil for 10 minutes which is plenty. If you are going to get a meter that measures super low oxygen levels it gets spendy. I currently don't have a working meter, but if you have a great sense of taste you can tell when your process needs improvement. All of the above assumes that you have a 100% fully purged keg and low oxygen barrier hoses and keg seals and your closed xfers are solid. I know that talking low oxygen is a volatile subject, but if you dial it in, the difference is apparent right away and months down the line.

 

[OzzyPeeps]

Ah ... I understand ... it has to be a purged counterflow chiller straight from boiling and and it has to be stainless...

How is the actual blending achieved Red, do you just use another purged keg and a spundy?

Why do yo want loDO if you are diluting prior to fermentation though?

As DuncB said, don't you want oxygen in there at that stage?

 

[DuncB]

I'm talking about diluting the finished beer prior to packaging like the big boys ...

Ahh I see, some do it at the wort stage, your ferment space is limited I assume?
You could also add ascorbic acid to the water as well as Sodium metabisulphate then and consider correcting the pH as well. Your water will have higher pH than your brew.

 

[OzzyPeeps]

Ahh I see, some do it at the wort stage, your ferment space is limited I assume?
You could also add ascorbic acid to the water as well as Sodium metabisulphate then and consider correcting the pH as well. Your water will have higher pH than your brew.

I have fermzilla 55l and enough room for that and up to about 4 regular plastic fermentors.

But somehow never enough beer

I'm a "more is more" guy

I'm also strictly extract, so there's no benefit for me in diluting at the wort stage as I'm basically doing that already ...

 

[Red over White]

Ah ... I understand ... it has to be a purged counterflow chiller straight from boiling and and it has to be stainless...

How is the actual blending achieved Red, do you just use another purged keg and a spundy?

Why do yo want loDO if you are diluting prior to fermentation though?

As DuncB said, don't you want oxygen in there at that stage?

I weigh the keg empty and fill it by weight and then transfer the beer from the fermenter in afterwards. I'm one of these goofy lodo brewers and brew lodo from start to finish with lagers. I do know that my store bought distilled water I dilute with at pitch brings o2 to the party.

 

[OzzyPeeps]

I weigh the keg empty and fill it by weight and then transfer the beer from the fermenter in afterwards. I'm one of these goofy lodo brewers and brew lodo from start to finish with lagers. I do know that my store bought distilled water I dilute with at pitch brings o2 to the party.

Nothing goofy about that bud.

Some things are worth being obsessive about.

Your posts are so helpful.

Hoping to get a brew off in the fermzilla this weekend and purge a couple kegs with fermgas ready for my first stab at closed xfers about a week from now after an O2 free dry hop on the quest for max aroma.

Living and learning

 

[OzzyPeeps]

I only brew high gravity and here's my process for kegging no oxygen water. I boil the water, add SMB to scrub 3ppm O² and after 5 minutes and fully purging my counter flow chiller with the boiling water through the beverage disconnect, I fill the keg through the beverage out post in a single pass through the CFC while cooling.

Powdered SMB amount is calculated like this: 5ppm SMB is needed to scrub 1ppm O²

ppm SMB x liters ÷ 1000 = grams SMB
15x19.5=292.5÷1000=.29g

Potentially the waters Na would be increased by 3ppm and the So⁴ by 15ppm.

I hope this makes sense.

So this has got the cheap ass, broke ass mad scientist in me thinking again

Theoretically it could be done without a CF chiller right?

I don't have one and I can't justify the €250 ...

But I do have a 30l brew kettle.

What's to stop me running the boiling water straight through a short silicone hose to an SS barb nut connected to an SS QD and straight into the flushed corny and let it cool in there?

If the water is boiling as it goes through it can hardly pick up much O2 through a foot of hose can it?

I mean like keep the burner going while xfering...

If you were gonna attempt it without a chiller how would you do it?

Also when adding the SMB you add it into the kettle right?

And the 5 minute wait is to allow the reaction to take place?

 

[Red over White]

So this has got the cheap ass, broke ass mad scientist in me thinking again

Theoretically it could be done without a CF chiller right?

I don't have one and I can't justify the €250 ...

But I do have a 30l brew kettle.

What's to stop me running the boiling water straight through a short silicone hose to an SS barb nut connected to an SS QD and straight into the flushed corny and let it cool in there?

If the water is boiling as it goes through it can hardly pick up much O2 through a foot of hose can it?

I mean like keep the burner going while xfering...

If you were gonna attempt it without a chiller how would you do it?

Also when adding the SMB you add it into the kettle right?

And the 5 minute wait is to allow the reaction to take place?

Here's a few things to look out for if you fill with boiling water. You may deform a plastic disconnect and if your keg has a rubber bottom that might be an issue. I always use distilled water so the small amount of SMB isn't getting burnt up on chlorine or chloramines. When adding the SMB to the kettle, I give it a few minutes to successfully get in solution. The 1 foot of silicone hose likely won't promote to much of an oxygen ingress problem at boiling temperature, but that is a guess and I have no way to backup such a claim. I have successfully stretched short lengths of silicone hose and slid it inside vinyl hose for high temperature capability and reduced o2 ingress. You will need a standard blowoff jar arrangement on the gas disconnect when filling, especially if you are filling an entire keg. Contraction would be a concern for me if I was filling a 5 gal keg with boiling water and I would likely fill 18 liters and put 30 lbs of pressure on it with your co2 tank and then cool the keg fast as I could. If I were going to try your route I would have the keg sitting in a bath of cold water and the disconnect would never be used for serving again, I'd probably put a zip tie around it to mark it as potentially compromised. I admire your conviction to do whatever it takes to get it right with what you have on hand. Keep us informed on your results.

 

[3 Dawg Night]

Dumb (but legitimate) question, because I'm not a LODO brewer: If you removed all of the oxygen from water, wouldn't you just have hydrogen?

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

Dumb (but legitimate) question, because I'm not a LODO brewer: If you removed all of the oxygen from water, wouldn't you just have hydrogen?

You aren’t splitting molecules, just releasing the O2 trapped in the solution. If I’m mistaken I’m sure someone will chime in and correct me.

 

[3 Dawg Night]

You aren’t splitting molecules, just releasing the O2 trapped in the solution. If I’m mistaken I’m sure someone will chime in and correct me.

That makes sense.

 

[OzzyPeeps]

You aren’t splitting molecules, just releasing the O2 trapped in the solution. If I’m mistaken I’m sure someone will chime in and correct me

Exactly.

It's the "free"/dissolved O2 ... the D in LODO that is the enemy of freshness in all foodstuffs.

Free O2 is literally trying to eat your lunch. Smackdown time.

 

[oldschool]

I work for a company that builds industrial brewing plants whether it be “craft” or for lager and they all blend finished beer with deaerated water (DAW) as you said.
I’ve seen this done three ways in order of best to worst but they all achieve low oxygen water. Industry standard is that water for beer blending must be below 10ppb.

1) Water is preheated to 80-85c then sprinkled down a column simultaneously adding CO2 from below and counter current to the falling water in the column. CO2 strips the oxygen in the process. the deaerated water is cooled with incoming water in a heat ex. The dissolved O2 is monitored inline and flow of CO2 is controlled by the DO meter.

2) Same process as in 1 but water isn’t heated. Much more CO2 is required and water must be sterilized with UV before use

3) water is batched in a tank then recirculated over a rotating nozzle like an alfa laval gama jet all while CO2 is injected in the recirc loop. Also a lot if CO2 is required but equipment is cheap and ok for when a small amount of DAW is needed.

Always the process is monitored with a DO meter of some kind. Whic is the issue for us homebrewers.

I think a good option would be to add hot water to a corny keg and blow in CO2 from below while allowing it to gas off. Once you have done an overkill, cool the water down. I had thought one of the carbonating lids with hose/stone attached would suit. But still you will not know the actual DO. I don’t think there is a decent meter in that range of measurement that isn’t more than $10k.

If you know any brewers with a DO meter maybe they could test a batch for you until you get the water temp/co2 time and flow rate dialed.

 

[VikeMan]

1) Water is preheated to 80-85c then sprinkled down a column simultaneously adding CO2 from below and counter current to the falling water in the column. CO2 strips the oxygen in the process. the deaerated water is cooled with incoming water in a heat ex. The dissolved O2 is monitored inline and flow of CO2 is controlled by the DO meter.

Maybe not necessary to mention, but just in case anyone is nodding sagely and seeing this as evidence of the effectiveness of the mostly mythical "CO2 Blanket," the reason the column works is that the water trickling through the pachinko machine-like apparatus maximizes the water's surface area (for gas exchange). The continuously fed nearly pure CO2 creates a large partial pressure differential of O2 between the water and the surrounding gas, causing O2 to come out of solution. It's not the CO2 mass per se that strips the O2... it's scarcity of O2 in the gas. The relative molecular weights of CO2 and O2 aren't really relevant.

 

[Red over White]

To add to the above about using co2 to strip o2, the co2 bubble needs to travel 10 feet in solution to effectively take on o2. Whether that is 10 feet in height or using a whirlpool to achieve a 10 foot path in shorter vessels. Larger co2 bubbles are more efficient for this process. O2 stripping on our level is going to require a lot of co2 and some guess work without a traces probe.

 

[DuncB]

My DO meter only good to PPM, so I use for checking wort oxygenation only. Interesting methods of getting DAW, thank you.

 

[oldschool]

Maybe not necessary to mention, but just in case anyone is nodding sagely and seeing this as evidence of the effectiveness of the mostly mythical "CO2 Blanket," the reason the column works is that the water trickling through the pachinko machine-like apparatus maximizes the water's surface area (for gas exchange). The continuously fed nearly pure CO2 creates a large partial pressure differential of O2 between the water and the surrounding gas, causing O2 to come out of solution. It's not the CO2 mass per se that strips the O2... it's scarcity of O2 in the gas. The relative molecular weights of CO2 and O2 aren't really relevant.

I agree. And then by theory you could achieve the same by filling a corny with water and purging and pressurizing the head space with CO2. then shaking the daylights out of it. Blow off the gas and repeat. But again who knows how long that would take. Wish I still had access to a DO meter to make some trials