Draft line balancing act....

[jmitchell3]

So im settled the calculators suck. Ive had a beast of a time balancing my high-carb lines. I have 6 ft 3/16" bevlex on my normal lines (2ft rise, normal shanks and taps) and it seems it could likely take 7ft.

For 3+ vols, im running 8-9 ft with perlick 650s almost all the way closed. Im thinking for 18 psi i really need about 15-16 ft of tubing....

Any thoughts or experience with your own system balancing? Has anyone ever done any proper testing?

Thanks and happy thanksgiving!

 

[jmcquesten]

So im settled the calculators suck. Ive had a beast of a time balancing my high-carb lines. I have 6 ft 3/16" bevlex on my normal lines (2ft rise, normal shanks and taps) and it seems it could likely take 7ft.

For 3+ vols, im running 8-9 ft with perlick 650s almost all the way closed. Im thinking for 18 psi i really need about 15-16 ft of tubing....

Any thoughts or experience with your own system balancing? Has anyone ever done any proper testing?

Thanks and happy thanksgiving!

Use this one. It's the only one that really works. And yes, at 3 volumes, it will tell you to use like 18 ft.

Trust the numbers, even if it's 20 ft.

http://www.mikesoltys.com/2012/09/17/determining-proper-hose-length-for-your-kegerator/

 

[MagicMatt]

You've omitted a huge factor, and that the temperature of your serving system. Trying to determine a line length from a carb volume means very little without that tidbit.

For normal serving temps though, a safe rule of thumb is 1ft per psi for moderately carbed beers (2.2-2.8 volumes). You can usually go shorter, but without checking Mike Soltys calculator I'd err on the side of caution.

Also please note that the term "balancing" completely misleading - it implies there is a perfect center or number that you have to hit, and that anything astray from that on either side will produce undesirable results.

The truth is that while shorter-than-optimal lines will usually cause problems, longer-than-optimal lines will have very little effect. In fact, the only "negative" to longer lines is that it might take ever-so-slightly longer to pour a pint. This is because line resistance decreases exponentially as flow rate decreases, therefore doubling your beer line length barely has a noticeable impact on pour speed. I've used 33ft lines on a keg carbed to ~2.5vols (10psi @ 34°F) and it only took about 3 seconds longer to pour a pint (15 seconds vs 12 seconds on my 10ft lines). And that was on a line that was over 20ft "too long".

So when in doubt, just go longer and you can't go wrong.

 

[jmitchell3]

you've omitted a huge factor, and that the temperature of your serving system. Trying to determine a line length from a carb volume means very little without that tidbit.

For normal serving temps though, a safe rule of thumb is 1ft per psi for moderately carbed beers (2.2-2.8 volumes). You can usually go shorter, but without checking mike soltys calculator i'd err on the side of caution.

Also please note that the term "balancing" completely misleading - it implies there is a perfect center or number that you have to hit, and that anything astray from that on either side will produce undesirable results.

The truth is that while shorter-than-optimal lines will usually cause problems, longer-than-optimal lines will have very little effect. In fact, the only "negative" to longer lines is that it might take ever-so-slightly longer to pour a pint. This is because line resistance decreases exponentially as flow rate decreases, therefore doubling your beer line length barely has a noticeable impact on pour speed. I've used 33ft lines on a keg carbed to ~2.5vols (10psi @ 34°f) and it only took about 3 seconds longer to pour a pint (15 seconds vs 12 seconds on my 10ft lines). And that was on a line that was over 20ft "too long".

So when in doubt, just go longer and you can't go wrong.

40f.

 

[MagicMatt]

40f.

Didn't notice you gave the psi you were serving, which would make the temp obsolete really. But yes, I calculate (via above link) that you'll need >15ft to be safe. May be able to get by with ~14ft, but I wouldn't temp much lower than that (though you do have the 650's, so that's your call).

 

[jmitchell3]

Didn't notice you gave the psi you were serving, which would make the temp obsolete really. But yes, I calculate (via above link) that you'll need >15ft to be safe. May be able to get by with ~14ft, but I wouldn't temp much lower than that (though you do have the 650's, so that's your call).

Yeah, i think thats probably right for 3.5 volumes. 18-21psi and at least 15 feet. I think for 12 psi 10-12 feet will work well, as it seems 6 ft is working just ok. What do you keep your keezer temp at?

 

[Bassman2003]

In my experience, longer lines are not the answer if you want to go over the normal 8-10 psi serving pressure. I have tried it and as stated, it just does not slow the speed of the beer down which is what you really need to happen to keep the CO2 in solution.

What is the answer? I purchased the things called "Flo-Gates" from a now out of business tap maker called Ventmatic. They are essentially curly ques inside the beer line that slow the flow of the beer. I am pretty sure you can get them in the form of another product but I do not know what the name is.

I have had my hefeweizen tap at 18-20 psi with two Flo-Gates in place with a fairly normal 5-6ft 3/16th beer line in the fridge for many years. The beer almost dribbles out which gives me the option of little head or more head depending on the pour style.

I also think I have seen some German taps which have some sort of flow mechanism built into them.

So do not go by the "new math' calculators. Find a way to slow the flow and you will get to the promised land.

 

[day_trippr]

<cough>

Ok...Science be damned, then.
Along with literally hundreds of folks that came to HBT with foamy pours and were cured by using a proper line length.

The Bible...
http://www.mikesoltys.com/2012/09/17/determining-proper-hose-length-for-your-kegerator/

Ignore at your peril...

Cheers!

 

[jmcquesten]

In my experience, longer lines are not the answer if you want to go over the normal 8-10 psi serving pressure. I have tried it and as stated, it just does not slow the speed of the beer down which is what you really need to happen to keep the CO2 in solution.

What is the answer? I purchased the things called "Flo-Gates" from a now out of business tap maker called Ventmatic. They are essentially curly ques inside the beer line that slow the flow of the beer. I am pretty sure you can get them in the form of another product but I do not know what the name is.

I have had my hefeweizen tap at 18-20 psi with two Flo-Gates in place with a fairly normal 5-6ft 3/16th beer line in the fridge for many years. The beer almost dribbles out which gives me the option of little head or more head depending on the pour style.

I also think I have seen some German taps which have some sort of flow mechanism built into them.

So do not go by the "new math' calculators. Find a way to slow the flow and you will get to the promised land.

First, there is no "normal" serving pressure. The pressure depends on temperature and desired carbonation level. So 10-12 is not "normal", it might be common for some, but not normal. My beers are all currently set above 12 psi, and no, they are not overcarbonated.

Second, 5 - 6 ft of serving line is not "normal", it's common because it usually comes with a keg kit or someone recommended it to someone else. A lot of people run 5 - 6 ft lines, but it doesn't make it right or "normal".

Third, I believe you are referring to the epoxy mixing sticks that are now available from McMaster Carr. People have discussed them here on the forum, and while they might work, it's another work around just like buying the flow control faucets. If these were the preferred methods of balancing lines, bars and restaurants would use them, but I doubt any do.

Finally, the "new math" calculator uses very old math and a couple of proven physics equations (bernoulli, Darcy, Swamee-Jain) to give the most accurate line lengths/flow rates available anywhere. Did you use mikesoltys.com calculator when you tried the longer lines and it didn't help? Or did you just say "16 ft of line is ridiculous, I'll just use 10 ft instead"? A little longer helps a little, but the right length fixes the problem. I use mikesoltys.com calculator. When setting it up, I timed the pour with a stopwatch and it gave me the exact pour time that the calculator said. The longer line definitely slowed the pour down, so I'm not sure what happened in your case. Even if you just use the fallback 1 ft per 1 psi, it will get you close, but will not work for your "normal" line length/pressures that you referenced (10-12 psi, 5-6 ft).

Some people get by with 5 - 6 ft. Some people also only serve at only 6-8 psi. A lot of people say they prefer their beer less carbonated. I'd guess that many of these people are settling for under carbonated beer because they don't want to balance their lines properly.

 

[Bassman2003]

I can appreciate all that you are saying. I used the word normal because this is a homebrew forum, not a pro brew forum. Yes, most homebrewers use 5-6 ft lines and carb 10psi or under. Because that is easy and pretty much works without issue.

If you want to go above these levels at serving temps, you are going to need some hardware help, either flow-gates or flow-control faucets.

I use the term new math because of this idea that "if I put 50ft of hose on the keg I can pour anything"... These calculators give the impression that there is some kind of end resistance that is achieved. Like it goes to zero. There is still an open hose being used and as stated on this thread, the resistance does not play out in a linear fashion.

Just sharing my 12+ years of kegging with a 18-20 psi 'set and forget' system. I tried the long line approach. I actually put 25-30 feet of 3/16ths beer line on a hefeweizen once. Guess what? It still shot out like a seltzer bottle! The only way to make high psi serving pressures work in a homebrew fridge is some form of hardware that slows the beer down. Long lines in a fridge do not slow the beer enough.

 

[jmcquesten]

Yes they do.

I don't use special hardware, just proper line lenths.

Special hardware is NOT the ONLY way.

I didn't say anything about pro brewing, so not sure where that's coming from. You found a work around that works for you, and that's good, but it's certainly not the only solution. And, I guarantee you that if you set the pressure to 12 psi, and serve through a 5 ft line, then change it to a 50 ft line, it WILL slow down the flow/pour rate. I'm not suggesting to run 50 ft lines, but using numbers you're giving to prove a point.

I'm not saying that this is the ONLY way to fix the problem. On the other hand, you're shooting down methods that have been proven to work for many people, by saying that stir sticks or flow control faucets are the ONLY way. You are wrong.

 

[Bassman2003]

Sure, no worries. But 12 psi is a far cry away from 18 psi. I guess you could say the longer beer line approach works *up to* a certain psi as higher pressures just overwhelm the resistance force. But I will stand by the ONLY way to get 18 psi balanced is additional hardware. How does that sound?

 

[day_trippr]

Sounds like someone failed physics...

Cheers!

 

[jmcquesten]

Sure, no worries. But 12 psi is a far cry away from 18 psi. I guess you could say the longer beer line approach works *up to* a certain psi as higher pressures just overwhelm the resistance force. But I will stand by the ONLY way to get 18 psi balanced is additional hardware. How does that sound?

Still sounds wrong to me. I am a home brewer, not a pro. I have 4 perlick 630ss faucets with a 4 taprite regulator manifold. I run between 14 to 20 psi on any of the 4 kegs. I used the referenced calculator to set it all up. I can pour a properly carbonated wheat beer at 18 psi out of any of the 4 faucets. The 630ss are not flow control faucets and I don't use the mixers in the lines either.

So, additional hardware is NOT the only way to balance 18 psi. Or 12 psi. Or 22 psi. Your mixer sticks are creating resistance to help slow your beer down. Why do you think that resistance works but longer line resistance doesn't?

 

[Bassman2003]

Getting a little rude here, but I don't just think, I experienced it. A few posts back I wrote how I installed 25-30 feet of beer line and tested it. The beer was still flowing out way too fast to keep the CO2 in solution. This was in a full sized fridge with the CO2 tank inside ~45F. Granted there is no height change from the keg to the faucets. I will take practical first hand knowledge over theory any day. My faucets are Ventmatics.

I tried a lot of things over the years. The other thing that worked was total homebrew... I clamped two pieces of wood around the beer line. Which in effect slowed the beer speed by limiting the opening of the hose. But line length did NOT work. So for the physics to be true it should ALWAYS work. Correct?

 

[jerbrew]

That last line hurts my feelings. Physics is true whether or not you've had a novel experience to the contrary. There is simply something not accounted being for. Not saying your solution won't continue to work just that physics doesn't just turn itself off. Especially in something as well understood and modeled as simple fluid systems.

 

[MagicMatt]

I can appreciate all that you are saying. I used the word normal because this is a homebrew forum, not a pro brew forum.

If anything, I'd say you're completely backwards on your assessment. It is actually because we are homebrewers that we don't have a normal. If we were talking about professional brewing, there would be more of a "normal" for things like this than there is in the homebrew world.

Yes, most homebrewers use 5-6 ft lines and carb 10psi or under. Because that is easy and pretty much works without issue.

Whaaat? So, so untrue. Maybe more correct to say "most noob homebrewers". Because otherwise that statement is so off base. The only people running that short of lines on that low of pressure have to have their serving temp around 32°F, which I'm fairly confident is much colder than most of us serve.

So where are you drawing your conclusions from? How many homebrewers do you know and regularly interact with? I see you've been a member here for several years yet your activity is pretty low - perhaps if you spend more time perusing these boards you'd have a better grasp on reality in this regard. I'm pretty sure at least 60% of the people here will tell you they use lines longer than 6ft. It's probably more like 90%, but hey let's not get carried away.

If you want to go above these levels at serving temps, you are going to need some hardware help, either flow-gates or flow-control faucets.

Or, you know, longer lines.

I use the term new math because of this idea that "if I put 50ft of hose on the keg I can pour anything"...

And that is (mostly) completely true! As I said earlier, I have one tap with a 33ft line on it for the rare occasion I need to serve soda at say 30psi. And guess what, it pours my 10psi beers just fine, and my 15psi beers, and my 18psi beers, and my 30psi soda! So yes, if you put a longer than necessary length of tubing on a tap, you can pour anything up to the carbonation level that that specific line length allows.

Just sharing my 12+ years of kegging with a 18-20 psi 'set and forget' system. I tried the long line approach. I actually put 25-30 feet of 3/16ths beer line on a hefeweizen once. Guess what? It still shot out like a seltzer bottle! The only way to make high psi serving pressures work in a homebrew fridge is some form of hardware that slows the beer down. Long lines in a fridge do not slow the beer enough.

I've never heard this claim from anyone besides you. So what's the more logical answer here.....that science and the laws of physics cease to exist in your kitchen, or that your one-time-trial of putting longer lines on had some other defect that you didn't account for? Are you telling me that grits cook faster in your kitchen than anywhere else on Earth?!?

Not trying to be rude (but I know that's how it's coming off), but this really perturbs me, being so insistent that science and math and waaaaaay more than "12+ years experience" from hundreds of thousands of homebrewers is somehow wrong, and proven so by your one non-scientific conjecture based on your own lackluster experience. The fact that you used the term "new math" pretty much sums it up.

 

[MagicMatt]

Sure, no worries. But 12 psi is a far cry away from 18 psi. I guess you could say the longer beer line approach works *up to* a certain psi as higher pressures just overwhelm the resistance force. But I will stand by the ONLY way to get 18 psi balanced is additional hardware. How does that sound?

It sounds like hogwash. Tell me, how do bars and restaurants serve highly pressurized soda without "additional hardware"? They must be wizards?

I tried a lot of things over the years. The other thing that worked was total homebrew... I clamped two pieces of wood around the beer line. Which in effect slowed the beer speed by limiting the opening of the hose. But line length did NOT work. So for the physics to be true it should ALWAYS work. Correct?

If you pay my airfare to Dallas, I'll galdly install 30ft lines on your taps and sit there while you pour a myriad of beers all at different carb levels, with perfect pours each time. And then help you drink them all.

Hell, I'll even supply the tubing.

 

[jmcquesten]

Getting a little rude here, but I don't just think, I experienced it. A few posts back I wrote how I installed 25-30 feet of beer line and tested it. The beer was still flowing out way too fast to keep the CO2 in solution. This was in a full sized fridge with the CO2 tank inside ~45F. Granted there is no height change from the keg to the faucets. I will take practical first hand knowledge over theory any day. My faucets are Ventmatics.

I tried a lot of things over the years. The other thing that worked was total homebrew... I clamped two pieces of wood around the beer line. Which in effect slowed the beer speed by limiting the opening of the hose. But line length did NOT work. So for the physics to be true it should ALWAYS work. Correct?

It's not rude. We are trying to correct the false statement that the ONLY way to pour beer is with special hardware.

Putting out a blanket statement that the way you do it is the only way it can be done is wrong. We're not lying about this working, it does. But, even if it only works for 5 people (which it doesn't), the statement "it can only be done with special hardware" is wrong.

If you just change it to "the ONLY way I could get it to work for me", we could end this discussion. Again, I'm not telling you that what you're doing isn't working. I am telling you that it's not the ONLY solution. My system is balanced with line length, and it does work for me. So take our practical, first hand knowledge and experience, and stop telling people there's only one way to do it. There isn't. In this case there's at least 3 ways.

 

[jmcquesten]

Are you telling me that grits cook faster in your kitchen than anywhere else on Earth?!?

Hahaha. This wins the argument. The defense's case doesn't hold water.

 

[skraeling]

I wonder if the lines are getting too warm, or the shanks themselves or something. Im wondering if there is a temp stratification issue going on.

 

[MagicMatt]

Good point. If you just stick a new 50ft line on your keg and start pouring, well of course it will be all foam until the lines cool down to the same temp as the keg.

 

[Bassman2003]

ok, what can I say? I can only speak from my experiences. I spent a long time fiddling with my system until I came across the Flo-Gates and they were the only thing that worked for me. I don't see the variables that could have been off. I had a keg, 3/16th beer line all inside a fridge so no temps were out of place. The beer never slowed down enough to get a good pour. Maybe I had a leak somewhere but the Flo-Gates allowed me to shorten the lines down to ~6ft with a perfect pour.

When I was learning about all of this stuff I spent time on HBD and the Northern Brewer forums and everybody talked about long beer lines. So I worked up from 6 to 8 to 10 to 12 etc... Eventually trying the 25-30ft. I was about to give up. All the while the chorus of "normal" brewers were saying "your beer is over carbed" "Just set it at 10 psi and you will be good to go"... I was definitely in the minority. Maybe things have evolved. This was probably ten years ago.

Sorry if I generalize too much. The "new math" term was used in reply to the same calculators the OP was frustrated with. I genuinely want to save the OP some time and stress that the hardware was the only method that worked for me since I was told up and down that long lines where the answer. I would be interested to see if the longer lines help in their situation.

I will bow out now. I retract and apologize for my overly broad statements. I do not think my kitchen is special and I did not fail physics.