Double IPA - Recipe Advice

[jad814]

I recently picked homebrewing up after a few year hiatus (kids/busy/etc). I'm starting back up by concocting a DIPA and brewing it over and over until I get what I want. My personal favorite DIPA is Fat Head's Hop JuJu, so I started on their page (http://www.fatheadsbeer.com/beer.html#juju) and started playing around on my own. Here is the malt aspect of the recipe I drafted up to start:

11.25 lb Pale 2-Row
1.75 lb Crystal 20L
1.75 lb Crystal 10L
1.00 lb Corn Sugar

This beer has a generous amount of hops that I added throughout a 90 minute boil (11oz in total). What I notice (the beer wasn't fully carbonated when I tried it yesterday - it will be tomorrow/Friday) is that the smell and taste on the front is pretty solid, but the body is quite light (as was the color in comparison to what I was after) so it didn't have the heavier mouthfeel like I'd want in a DIPA.

So, my question(s):

1. The base malt(s) I sought to use was Pale, C-15, and Crystal Light. However, my local shop doesn't carry C-15 (thus why I tried to just use a mix of 20 and 10 - not sure if that's a valid substitute), nor do they carry "Crystal Light".

2. I targeted a 150 degree mash temp. Would most agree for a DIPA that's a fair target? I chose that after reading the general overview of DIPA homebrewing here (http://byo.com/issues/item/1702-imperial-ipa-style-profile)

3. The beer was not clear at all unfortunately. I'm brewing again Saturday, and I plan to whirlpool the cooled wort for 20-30 minutes or so as I've read positive results from folks doing that step. I also intend to cold crash my fermented beer prior to kegging it up. I'm hoping/confident both of those things will help me there.

4. Any other insight would be kindly appreciated.

Thank you all in advance for your time and opinion!

 

[atom]

let me be the first to say...waaaaay too much crystal. drop it to a lb or take it out entirely.

 

[Jhu1321]

Mash higher for a DIPA. Maybe 154-156. Love me some JuJu.

 

[atom]

Mash higher for a DIPA. Maybe 154-156.

i disagree...148-150 for a DIPA..the point is to dry it out.

what yeast are you using? if you want body i'd add adjuncts (flaked oats) or carapils. if clarity is important, i'd hit it with gelatin in the keg.

 

[m00ps]

@atom

YES. Mashing an IPA that high is very bad
YES. way way way way way way too much crystal

OP, try posting your hop schedule

 

[jad814]

First, thank you all so much for your quick response/help.

@atom

YES. Mashing an IPA that high is very bad
YES. way way way way way way too much crystal

OP, try posting your hop schedule

Amount Hop Time Use
1.0 oz Chinook (US) 90 min Boil
1.0 oz Simcoe (US) 90 min Boil
0.25 oz Centennial (US) 30 min Boil
0.25 oz Cascade (US) 30 min Boil
0.25 oz Citra (US) 30 min Boil
0.75 oz Centennial (US) 5 min Boil
0.75 oz Cascade (US) 5 min Boil
0.75 oz Citra (US) 5 min Boil
1.0 oz Centennial (US) 0 min Boil
1.0 oz Cascade (US) 0 min Boil
1.0 oz Citra (US) 0 min Boil
1.0 oz Centennial (US) 7 days Dry Hop
1.0 oz Cascade (US) 7 days Dry Hop
1.0 oz Citra (US) 7 days Dry Hop

 

[jad814]

i disagree...148-150 for a DIPA..the point is to dry it out.

what yeast are you using? if you want body i'd add adjuncts (flaked oats) or carapils. if clarity is important, i'd hit it with gelatin in the keg.

I used White Labs WLP051 (California V Ale Yeast)

 

[MikeSkril]

Yeah, dont mash over 150F and use less than 10% crystal.

 

[TravelingLight]

First, thank you all so much for your quick response/help.



Amount Hop Time Use
1.0 oz Chinook (US) 90 min Boil
1.0 oz Simcoe (US) 90 min Boil
0.25 oz Centennial (US) 30 min Boil
0.25 oz Cascade (US) 30 min Boil
0.25 oz Citra (US) 30 min Boil
0.75 oz Centennial (US) 5 min Boil
0.75 oz Cascade (US) 5 min Boil
0.75 oz Citra (US) 5 min Boil
1.0 oz Centennial (US) 0 min Boil
1.0 oz Cascade (US) 0 min Boil
1.0 oz Citra (US) 0 min Boil
1.0 oz Centennial (US) 7 days Dry Hop
1.0 oz Cascade (US) 7 days Dry Hop
1.0 oz Citra (US) 7 days Dry Hop

I'm still green, so take this for what it's worth, which likely isn't very much...

I'd move all the 30 minute additions to 15 minutes, or later, or move them to FO or whirlpool/hopstand. I would also do a significant whirlpool/hopstand (see previous sentence). Finally, I would at least double those dry hops. And possibly do them in two separate dry hops, e.g., dry hop with those 3 ounces for 5-7 days, then throw in 3 more ounces or so and dry hop another 5-7 days.

 

[jad814]

I'm still green, so take this for what it's worth, which likely isn't very much...

I'd move all the 30 minute additions to 15 minutes, or later, or move them to FO or whirlpool/hopstand. I would also do a significant whirlpool/hopstand (see previous sentence). Finally, I would at least double those dry hops. And possibly do them in two separate dry hops, e.g., dry hop with those 3 ounces for 5-7 days, then throw in 3 more ounces or so and dry hop another 5-7 days.

Thank you for your feedback. I'm glad you mentioned the hop-related aspect. I had posted what I "did" originally, but this next go round rest-assured I was moving that entire 30minute hop addition to the 5minute additions to make them a full ounce each (mostly just because I realize it was silly to split a full ounce package of hops just to do it that way, plus the more nose/aroma the better).

As for the whirlpool (sorry as I'm unfamiliar with "hopstand" - that will be my next Google after this post), I had planned to just chill my wort with my immersion chiller, and then get a whirlpool going by hand/spoon as best as I can and let it go for about 20-30 minutes before siphoning into the fermenter.

Thanks again!

 

[TravelingLight]

Thank you for your feedback. I'm glad you mentioned the hop-related aspect. I had posted what I "did" originally, but this next go round rest-assured I was moving that entire 30minute hop addition to the 5minute additions to make them a full ounce each (mostly just because I realize it was silly to split a full ounce package of hops just to do it that way, plus the more nose/aroma the better).

As for the whirlpool (sorry as I'm unfamiliar with "hopstand" - that will be my next Google after this post), I had planned to just chill my wort with my immersion chiller, and then get a whirlpool going by hand/spoon as best as I can and let it go for about 20-30 minutes before siphoning into the fermenter.

Thanks again!

For my hopstands (thanks m00ps), after flame out I let it cool to about 170-180 (depending on the hops) then toss them in and let them steep for about 30 mins. Then I chill to pitch temp with the chiller.

 

[oceanic_brew]

Is that all a hop stand is?

I've been worrying about extracting too much bitterness from my hop additions since I no chill in a keg. I used to add all my late additions in the keg once it's lower than 180 and then just let it cool.

Essentially that would be a hop stand then.


Sorry to hijack

As you were

 

[jimmerz]

Once you lock down your juju clone you can start a Super Juicy Juju recipe, which is my favorite all time beer!

Following...

 

[jad814]

What do you guys think if, malt wise, I did something like

2 Row - 13lb (bumped up from original)
C20 - 1lb
C10 - 1lb

Via BrewToad, the OG, FG, and Color are estimating extremely close to the beer I'm modeling after.

Then, I plan to measure the OG pre-boil and if it's meaningfully lower than my target, use the appropriate amount of Corn Sugar (via calculation) towards the end of the boil to get it bumped up to where I want.

Thoughts?

 

[TravelingLight]

What do you guys think if, malt wise, I did something like

2 Row - 13lb (bumped up from original)
C20 - 1lb
C10 - 1lb

Via BrewToad, the OG, FG, and Color are estimating extremely close to the beer I'm modeling after.

Then, I plan to measure the OG pre-boil and if it's meaningfully lower than my target, use the appropriate amount of Corn Sugar (via calculation) towards the end of the boil to get it bumped up to where I want.

Thoughts?

I'd still cut down on the 20 and 10. But I also like wheat in my grain bill for IPAs, so, again, take that FWIW.

 

[atom]

i'd limit your crystal to 5% or less. if it's color you want, a smaller amount of c40 might do the trick (eliminating 10 and 20)

 

[jad814]

i'd limit your crystal to 5% or less. if it's color you want, a smaller amount of c40 might do the trick (eliminating 10 and 20)

Out of curiosity (and I totally understand using smaller amount of a higher Crystal for the color), can you help me understand why "too much" crystal is no good? I'm not challenging that, and truth be told the only reason I was using a mix of 20 and 10 is because I was just trying to stay as close to the Fat Head's disclosed malts as I felt I could.

I've tried to look for some DIPA "style proportions" but came up largely empty, short of looking at a number of recipes that many seem to enjoy and breaking down the %'s myself to try to find some common ground.

 

[atom]

Crystal can add sweetness and mask hop flavors... Neither of which is desirable in a dipa.

 

[jad814]

Crystal can add sweetness and mask hop flavors... Neither of which is desirable in a dipa.

Thanks! I really appreciate the help.

 

[radwizard]

Have you brewed a Super Hoppy Pale Ale, or IPA before that you were really happy with? I brewed some pretty crappy DIPA when I was just starting. I was kinda under the imprression that I could just have a big grain bill, and go crazy with the hops and I was going make something great. These are big beers, with a lot going on. If I could do it all again I wouldn't even mess with DIPA's until I have several near perfect IPA recipes under my belt.

 

[TravelingLight]

Have you brewed a Super Hoppy Pale Ale, or IPA before that you were really happy with? I brewed some pretty crappy DIPA when I was just starting. I was kinda under the imprression that I could just have a big grain bill, and go crazy with the hops and I was going make something great. These are big beers, with a lot going on. If I could do it all again I wouldn't even mess with DIPA's until I have several near perfect IPA recipes under my belt.

I just started brewing recently. My second beer is in primary now and it's a DIPA. My first was an IPA and it was damn solid IMO for my first beer. Hoping this one will be as good if not better. Next up is a coffee stout, dark sour/sour stout, and a porter. I like going 0 to 60 as fast as possible

 

[ThunderKhajiit]

Look at what has been done already- no need to reinvent the wheel. For instance, check out the recipe for Pliny. That is a fantastic (and simple) DIPA. I made it once and it turned out great.

 

[jad814]

I played with my recipe a bit more yielding to the feedback (thanks to you all again by the way).

I'm going with 90% base, 10% Crystal 40/20/10 to get the color estimate I'm after. I also doubled down on the dry hops too for the big aroma/nose. The projected OG/FG gives me very close to what I'm after, so going to give it a go bright and early Saturday morning.

I'll report back if its good (or bad)!

 

[aprichman]

I played with my recipe a bit more yielding to the feedback (thanks to you all again by the way).

I'm going with 90% base, 10% Crystal 40/20/10 to get the color estimate I'm after. I also doubled down on the dry hops too for the big aroma/nose. The projected OG/FG gives me very close to what I'm after, so going to give it a go bright and early Saturday morning.

I'll report back if its good (or bad)!

10% crystal is totally inappropriate for a IIPA - you should be targeting flavor and not color. If you want more color I would use some Munich 10L blended in with your 2-row. Cut the crystal to 5% or less.

 

[m00ps]

stolen from article:
Grain Selection:
I usually find myself designing recipes from the ground up, starting with the malt foundation. Ive come across a few helpful articles from Vinnie Cilurzo [1] at Russian River, and Mitch Steele at Stone[2], which I like to point people to when they are trying to get their hops to pop. I wont list them all here, but these are my main points I keep in mind when designing my IPA grain bill.

You want an IPA to be dry, that much is nearly universally agreed upon. According to the new 2015 BJCP guidelines for the style 21A – American IPA: Dry to medium-dry finish; residual sweetness should be low to none. Sweetness will clash with the hops. You can dry out a beer by mashing low (148-150 works for me), and adding some simple sugar (usually 5-10% by weight), but this also means minimizing crystal malts (less than 5% is recommended). Personally, I omit them entirely. I know, it can be hard to cut crystal out of the recipe, since it may seem uninteresting with just boring ol’ 2 Row and sugar, but you aren’t trying to make a balanced beer like an Irish Red, an American Brown, or some type of German Lager. This is an IPA, its not supposed to be balanced. Its about the hops. Before we get to that, however, there are two more little things Ive started doing which really bring out the juicy character of all these new, extra fruity hops. The first is to include a decent amount of wheat as well. It helps with the body since you want a dry beer, but not thin and watery. I like 20-30% of the grain bill. This can also help with the whole haze factor, if that’s what you want. The second little secret is I have also been adding 2-3% acidulated malt to help with the mash pH, due to the absence of darker grains. There is no flavor contribution at these levels. Though I have gone up to 8% once, and still didn’t get any tangy flavors.

[1] http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/5-tips-for-better-ipas-from-vinnie-cilurzo
[2] http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/5-tips-on-brewing-ipas-from-mitch-steele/

Double IPA. Similarly, you cant just scale up for a DIPA. I typically use more hops here, as you’d expect, but Ive found keeping the beer dry is most important in this case. I will go up to 15% sugar, mash a bit lower, and keep specialty malts to an absolute minimum. Anyone can make what is essentially a hoppy barleywine, but a 9% IPA that is loaded with flavor, but also very drinkable? That takes skill. Another trick I’ve started employing is spiking my fermentation with a high attenuating yeast strain. I say spike because I will make a small starter and not add it until the main yeast has had a two- to three-day head start. This minimizes any potential flavor impact. Though sometimes, I actually want some of the flavor from my secondary yeast, like in my Orange Juice-inspired, hazy DIPA. I wanted some of the lemony zip of WY3711 to come across, in order to accentuate my citrusy hops. It worked very well, and even managed to go from an OG of 1.078, down to 1.006. My main point, though, is it was super drinkable.

 

[jad814]

stolen from article:
Grain Selection:
I usually find myself designing recipes from the ground up, starting with the malt foundation. Ive come across a few helpful articles from Vinnie Cilurzo [1] at Russian River, and Mitch Steele at Stone[2], which I like to point people to when they are trying to get their hops to pop. I wont list them all here, but these are my main points I keep in mind when designing my IPA grain bill.

You want an IPA to be dry, that much is nearly universally agreed upon. According to the new 2015 BJCP guidelines for the style 21A – American IPA: Dry to medium-dry finish; residual sweetness should be low to none. Sweetness will clash with the hops. You can dry out a beer by mashing low (148-150 works for me), and adding some simple sugar (usually 5-10% by weight), but this also means minimizing crystal malts (less than 5% is recommended). Personally, I omit them entirely. I know, it can be hard to cut crystal out of the recipe, since it may seem uninteresting with just boring ol’ 2 Row and sugar, but you aren’t trying to make a balanced beer like an Irish Red, an American Brown, or some type of German Lager. This is an IPA, its not supposed to be balanced. Its about the hops. Before we get to that, however, there are two more little things Ive started doing which really bring out the juicy character of all these new, extra fruity hops. The first is to include a decent amount of wheat as well. It helps with the body since you want a dry beer, but not thin and watery. I like 20-30% of the grain bill. This can also help with the whole haze factor, if that’s what you want. The second little secret is I have also been adding 2-3% acidulated malt to help with the mash pH, due to the absence of darker grains. There is no flavor contribution at these levels. Though I have gone up to 8% once, and still didn’t get any tangy flavors.

[1] http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/5-tips-for-better-ipas-from-vinnie-cilurzo
[2] http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/5-tips-on-brewing-ipas-from-mitch-steele/

Double IPA. Similarly, you cant just scale up for a DIPA. I typically use more hops here, as you’d expect, but Ive found keeping the beer dry is most important in this case. I will go up to 15% sugar, mash a bit lower, and keep specialty malts to an absolute minimum. Anyone can make what is essentially a hoppy barleywine, but a 9% IPA that is loaded with flavor, but also very drinkable? That takes skill. Another trick I’ve started employing is spiking my fermentation with a high attenuating yeast strain. I say spike because I will make a small starter and not add it until the main yeast has had a two- to three-day head start. This minimizes any potential flavor impact. Though sometimes, I actually want some of the flavor from my secondary yeast, like in my Orange Juice-inspired, hazy DIPA. I wanted some of the lemony zip of WY3711 to come across, in order to accentuate my citrusy hops. It worked very well, and even managed to go from an OG of 1.078, down to 1.006. My main point, though, is it was super drinkable.

Thank you very much for sharing this. My grain order is/was already placed for this batch, so I'll give this a go this round, taste, and go from there now that I'm able to brew much more regularly. I appreciate all of the help and advice.

 

[Jacinthebox]

I've removed dark crystal from my DIPAs. I don't like the weird sweetness it adds. DIPA should be dryish.
I use Vienna as a base, Munich for color, some flaked wheat for foam, and a very small amount of carapils for a touch of residual sweetness (adds to the juicy taste to go with the citrus/piney/pineapple flavors from my hops).

 

[jad814]

I've removed dark crystal from my DIPAs. I don't like the weird sweetness it adds. DIPA should be dryish.
I use Vienna as a base, Munich for color, some flaked wheat for foam, and a very small amount of carapils for a touch of residual sweetness (adds to the juicy taste to go with the citrus/piney/pineapple flavors from my hops).

Thanks for the advice! Do you mind sharing %s of your base, flaked wheat, etc?

 

[m00ps]

Thanks for the advice! Do you mind sharing %s of your base, flaked wheat, etc?

I'd say you should probably start 10-20% and see how it works out. Itll help with body and head retention, but will also add some haze. Depending on how you feel about the results you can adjust it from there. My favorite double ipa recipe is around 30% flaked wheat/oats

 

[Jacinthebox]

Thanks for the advice! Do you mind sharing %s of your base, flaked wheat, etc?

for the dipa we just brewed.
33.3% Vienna
26.7% Munich
26.7% Red Wheat
13.3% Carapils

I like my ipa/dipa hazy...we tend to use conan so it's part of the deal anyway

 

[jad814]

Awesome! Thanks again for all the time and advice.

 

[Jacinthebox]

Awesome! Thanks again for all the time and advice.

NP good luck

 

[jad814]

I know this is the 3rd or 4th time I've said "this is where I landed" but honestly this is where I landed after trying to accommodate advice and staying in line with what I'm hoping for:

87% 2row
5% crystal 40
5% carapils
3% dextrose

Brew day tomorrow bright and early in the quite cold 6:30am. I'll report back (good or bad)!

 

[cyanmonkey]

2 lbs of C10 and C20 isn't that ridiculous. You won't get the cloying sweetness from say C40 & C60. My favorite IPA I brew has 1.75 lbs of C40-C120. It's a bit old school, but if it tastes good it is good.

My other favorite pale ale I brew has 10.5 lbs 2-row and 1 lb C20. It's still pretty dry since I mash low and get my sulfate a right on my water.

Where you finally landed looks pretty good to me, although I wouldn't use as much carapils, personally.

People hate crystal because its popular, but it makes good beer.

 

[jad814]

Been busy to follow-up, but brew day went really well with the exception of a couple procedural (I suspect) matters:

1. I have yet to do an all grain brew where I come reasonably close to my calculated OG (calculated via software). I fell a good 0.014-0.016 low of my target on this run (after accounting for temperature). I was excited that all my mash/infusion temps went well, I was careful to lauter slowly, and I don't know what it is but it frustrates me that I can't seem to ever hit my OG targets (or close) doing all grain. The only variable I haven't taken first-hand control over is the grain crack, but to my eye the grain as it comes from the local homebrew shop is plenty broken down. I don't know, but it frustrates me! The only other variable I'm holding hope on is that I used a brand new hydrometer, so when I measure the final gravity perhaps it'll be well lower than my target as well, which may mean something is amiss with the hydrometer, but I suspect that's unlikely.

2. I wanted to try to leave behind a lot of the junky/trub from the boil kettle, so I attempted the hand whirlpool procedure, and let it rest for 20-25 minutes (it had spun out), but the bottom of my pot (a Bayou Classic steel pot) must not be condusive to holding the cone, as it was simply a big cake on the bottom of the pot. Nonetheless, I siphoned into the fermenter through a strainer (fine mesh kitchen strainer - which got painful towards the end when it got very sludgy but I powered through).

All things considered, successful brew day, and I'm excited (despite having a hard time being as excited as I was when I'm missing these damn gravity targets by a fair margin) to taste the result.

 

[atom]

1. I have yet to do an all grain brew where I come reasonably close to my calculated OG (calculated via software). I fell a good 0.014-0.016 low of my target on this run (after accounting for temperature). I was excited that all my mash/infusion temps went well, I was careful to lauter slowly, and I don't know what it is but it frustrates me that I can't seem to ever hit my OG targets (or close) doing all grain. The only variable I haven't taken first-hand control over is the grain crack, but to my eye the grain as it comes from the local homebrew shop is plenty broken down. I don't know, but it frustrates me! The only other variable I'm holding hope on is that I used a brand new hydrometer, so when I measure the final gravity perhaps it'll be well lower than my target as well, which may mean something is amiss with the hydrometer, but I suspect that's unlikely.

my efficiency went up 10% when i started to mill my own.

 

[jad814]

my efficiency went up 10% when i started to mill my own.

Wow... I just calculated mine to 78%. Perhaps I'll more seriously consider milling my own grain in a shorter time-frame than I already was.

 

[jimmerz]

I just realized you are in Pittsburgh! No wonder you want to clone a Hop Juju. Im in Mars, PA.

Have you had the Super Juicy Hop JuJu?

 

[jad814]

Wow... I just calculated mine to 78%. Perhaps I'll more seriously consider milling my own grain in a shorter time-frame than I already was.

I stand corrected here. I see now that the site I used (http://www.brewersfriend.com/brewhouse-efficiency/), offers the ability to put various volumes and gravity readings in to calculate various "efficiency" metrics.

"Pre Boil Efficiency" - 78%
"Brewhouse Efficiency" - 60%

 

[jpb2716]

I just realized you are in Pittsburgh! No wonder you want to clone a Hop Juju. Im in Mars, PA.

Have you had the Super Juicy Hop JuJu?

I too am from Pittsburgh and am jealous. I've never had the Super Juicy Hop Juju. Just the regular Juju. Delicious.