Does my harvested yeast starter make any chance at all?

[Remos112]

So this weekend I decided to try and cultivate some yeast from brewery Het Anker (Gouden Carolus) and since the only beer i could find that has bottle fermentation is the Hopsinjoor I bought two bottles of it.
It is 8% ABV. and 50 IBU so by no means an ideal beer for harvesting.

The other thing might be I made the starter much too big after reading some more about it.

I pitched the slurry from 2 bottles into a 300ml 1.030 starter which I know now is much too big for so little cells.

Does this have any chance at all of working, or am I better off just disposing it all and start over next weekend?

If there is a chance that this might work what is the best way of determining this? Sticking a hydrometer in it and see if it has dropped? So far there has been 0 visual activity.

Any and all opinions are very welcome, thanks in advance,
Remi

 

[MyQuL]

The high alcohol content may be a problem but the way you cultured isnt I wouldnt say. Last time I bottle cultured I was after the Gales strain from a bottle of HSB. I used one bottle and pitched the dregs into 200ml of 1.040 wort. Then into 1L of 1.040. I then put the yeast into 10L of ordinary bitter OG 1.036 iirc. Worked fine.

 

[Remos112]

That's very comforting. How long did it take to see any activity with your yeast? I don't mind waiting a few days or even a week as long as there is still a chance it is working.

 

[MyQuL]

I cant remember how long it took to see activity but I dont remember it taking any longer than a normal starter so It was probably off and running by 12-24 hours. What have you got it in? I had mine in a 500ml water bottle and would screw the cap down and shake it. When I opened the cap again a little hiss of C02 would escape that's when I knew it had started off

 

[Remos112]

I Used a sanitized beer glass with foil on top. The starter is at my fathers home so can't check on it as often as I would like, but according to him there is not a lot happening at all, although I have had this before with some yeast strains, little visible activity but it fermented just the same.

The high alcohol content may be a problem but the way you cultured isnt I wouldnt say. Last time I bottle cultured I was after the Gales strain from a bottle of HSB. I used one bottle and pitched the dregs into 200ml of 1.040 wort. Then into 1L of 1.040. I then put the yeast into 10L of ordinary bitter OG 1.036 iirc. Worked fine.

I cant remember how long it took to see activity but I dont remember it taking any longer than a normal starter so It was probably off and running by 12-24 hours. What have you got it in? I had mine in a 500ml water bottle and would screw the cap down and shake it. When I opened the cap again a little hiss of C02 would escape that's when I knew it had started off

 

[MyQuL]

The first couple of time i tried bottle culturing I used a lot more step ups. The first step up I put the dregs in 100ml of 1.020. I didnt see any signs of activity at all and just stepped it up 'on faith'. Worked fine too

 

[Remos112]

The first couple of time i tried bottle culturing I used a lot more step ups. The first step up I put the dregs in 100ml of 1.020. I didnt see any signs of activity at all and just stepped it up 'on faith'. Worked fine too

Interresting! Yeah at hindsight I would have used more steps too but it is already in the glass. Would you recommend stepping up in faith anyway in say like a week? All I have to lose is time and a bit of DME so might be interresting anyway.

 

[MyQuL]

Yes, step it up again 'on faith' I just treat each step up like a starter so there's no need to wait more than three days for the next step up

 

[Remos112]

Checked the starterglass today and did see some yeast at the bottem, there was also some foam on top. It definetely smelled yeasty and healthy. Dropped the hydrometer in but the glass turned out to be too shallow so no measurement.
I boiled 114Gram of DME and added another liter water and this is how it looks now.

Will update further down the road

 

[flars]

It looks like there is no yeast in suspension. How often is the starter wort aerated by swirling? More aeration equals more yeast activity.

 

[Remos112]

It looks like there is no yeast in suspension. How often is the starter wort aerated by swirling? More aeration equals more yeast activity.

This was directly after pitching the small starter in the bigger and I swirled it up quite a bit, there just isn't much yeast yet in it. I asked my father to swirl it up as often as he can. I have always used a stir plate in the past but it died on my a while back. I am certain this would have been a big help in this situation so will be buying another soon!

 

[IslandLizard]

Is there something special about this yeast that makes it worth harvesting?

You are right, that bottle is not an ideal target for harvesting, especially if the beer was conditioned or aged in the bottle for some time as well.

I think patience is a virtue with this process. There may have been only very few viable cells, so it takes time to culture them to a sizeable or even pitchable amount. I'd start with 50 ml of 1.010 wort, then 100ml of 1.010 before going to 100 ml of 1.030 and so on. Cold crashing when working with those small volumes is not essential, you can just add more wort. But good aeration or oxygenation is. Fix that stir plate!

I have grown yeast from 2 year old cultures stored in the fridge and they needed 1-2 weeks on a stir plate before the wort/beer became milky, which is a valuable sign of yeast growth.

Use a yeast calculator such as Homebrew Dad's to estimate cell propagation/growth.

 

[Remos112]

Is there something special about this yeast that makes it worth harvesting?

You are right, that bottle is not an ideal target for harvesting, especially if the beer was conditioned or aged in the bottle for some time as well.

I think patience is a virtue with this process. There may have been only very few viable cells, so it takes time to culture them to a sizeable or even pitchable amount. I'd start with 50 ml of 1.010 wort, then 100ml of 1.010 before going to 100 ml of 1.030 and so on. Cold crashing when working with those small volumes is not essential, you can just add more wort. But good aeration or oxygenation is. Fix that stir plate!

I have grown yeast from 2 year old cultures stored in the fridge and they needed 1-2 weeks on a stir plate before the wort/beer became milky, which is a valuable sign of yeast growth.

Use a yeast calculator such as Homebrew Dad's to estimate cell propagation/growth.

After a lot of research I still couldn’t find solid advice for a substitute for this yeast, that’s why I decided to give bottle harvesting a try. Thanks for the links and info.

 

[IslandLizard]

After a lot of research I still couldn’t find solid advice for a substitute for this yeast, that’s why I decided to give bottle harvesting a try. Thanks for the links and info.

In lieu of your stir plate, look up the "shaken not stirred" yeast vitalization/growing method, where you want to create a lot of foam. The yeast grows on the edges of the tiny air bubbles which provides a relatively rich source of oxygen. It may be suitable for dregs culturing too. Obviously you want an appropriately sized jar/jug with tight fitting stopper/lid. All this should be done under good sanitary conditions, or you'd be propagating bugs at the same time.

 

[Remos112]

Update:

 

[IslandLizard]

^ Looks like you've got some action there. Keep it going!

 

[Remos112]

^ Looks like you've got some action there. Keep it going!

Thanks that was the plan

 

[IslandLizard]

I just saw that's a 5 liter flask!
Yeah that's a lot (1 liter) of strong wort (1.030) for a first step. But once she takes off, she can grow for a while in there. Give her another week, at least. Keep swirling to incorporate oxygen or she'll ferment it instead of growing.

 

[Remos112]

I just saw that's a 5 liter flask!
Yeah that's a lot (1 liter) of strong wort (1.030) for a first step. But once she takes off, she can grow for a while in there. Give her another week, at least. Keep swirling to incorporate oxygen or she'll ferment it instead of growing.

This was the second step actually, first step was a 300ML glas 1.030. I will keep it in quite a time and will keep stirring as much as possible. Hopefully all goes well. I will probably brew a low abv test brew with this first. Very curious what I might get!

 

[shaky6]

Looks like a start

 

[Remos112]

Update, took a sample today. and it fermented down to 1.022, the entire bottom is coated with white yeast before I swirl it back up. It doesn't smell very nice though, should I be worried or would it likely mellow down as it ferments out further. Should I ferment it further? Or should I just cold crash decant and make another bigger starter?
Love to hear your ideas! Thanks in advance

 

[Remos112]

The smell reminds me of slightly rotten orange peels. Not sure what to make of it. I know some yeasts give very nasty smells for instance forbidden fruits smells like rotten eggs during fermentation. Never smelled anything like this though

 

[IslandLizard]

Update, took a sample today. and it fermented down to 1.022, the entire bottom is coated with white yeast before I swirl it back up. It doesn't smell very nice though, should I be worried or would it likely mellow down as it ferments out further. Should I ferment it further? Or should I just cold crash decant and make another bigger starter?
Love to hear your ideas! Thanks in advance

How did you measure the gravity? 1.022 from 1.030 does not indicate it has even nearly completed. I'd keep swirling well, give it more time.

Regarding the smell, there can be substantial autolysis in the dregs, as well as byproducts from starter fermentation. That's why it is important to keep incorporating oxygen when making starters, so it doesn't ferment much but instead, keeps growing.

I'd let her ride a few more days, see if you can eek some more growth out of her before moving to the next step. Keep an eye out for any growth on the surface, that would not be good.

Don't you have a bit smaller flask/jug/jar, like 2 liter or so?

 

[Remos112]

I measured the. Gravity with a hydrometer I don’t have a smaller flask though. Thanks for the advice, I willl give it more time!

 

[IslandLizard]

I measured the. Gravity with a hydrometer I don’t have a smaller flask though. Thanks for the advice, I willl give it more time!

OK, so that is close to the real gravity. I sometimes use a refractometer, with an online correction calculator, so it only takes 2 drops to get an idea where it stands. Most of the time the amount of yeast in suspension is plenty of an indication, a gravity reading would be futile.

The problem with a hydrometer is the relative volume it requires when your beer volume is small, like in starters and very small batches. Did you pour it back?

 

[Remos112]

I discarded it in fear of infection. Should I have poured it back in the starter?

 

[IslandLizard]

I discarded it in fear of infection. Should I have poured it back in the starter?

No, tossing it is best, for that reason alone. I wouldn't pour it back either.

 

[Remos112]

No, tossing it is best, for that reason alone. I wouldn't pour it back either.

Good to hear. So i am at the starter again (since it is not made in my home)
And this is wat it looks like about 20 minutes after stirring it up.

It smells normal until you stir everyyhing up so I think just a smelly yeast.
It looks like quite a bit of yeast to me, what would be a sensible move? Let it ride out a bit longer?Cold crash and use it as is? Maybe make a bigger starter to be sure?
Thanks for all the info so far!
[editi] I noticed the ruler on the flask and the starter is actually more like 2Liters than 1 Liter, must have made a mistake somewhere

 

[IslandLizard]

That should be enough yeast for a small, lowish gravity (1.050) batch, say 10 liter. Then harvest that for a larger/higher gravity batch. Don't forget to save some for keeps or building a larger starter from again.

 

[Remos112]

That should be enough yeast for a small, lowish gravity (1.050) batch, say 10 liter. Then harvest that for a larger/higher gravity batch. Don't forget to save some for keeps or building a larger starter from again.

I used a calculator wich isn't more then a rough guideline IMHO and ik gave me about 90BL units. I decided to dump my last bit DME in (boiled) so I added 1l 1.030.
The plan now is to cool crash wednesday or thursday, For my first brew I was thinking of a simple LME kit 1.058 15L. Then use the yeast cake 3 weeks later for my actual brew. Very time consuming project but a lot of fun too! Thanks a load for your answers. Will update later this week!

 

[IslandLizard]

I used a calculator wich isn't more then a rough guideline IMHO and ik gave me about 90BL units. I decided to dump my last bit DME in (boiled) so I added 1l 1.030.
The plan now is to cool crash wednesday or thursday, For my first brew I was thinking of a simple LME kit 1.058 15L. Then use the yeast cake 3 weeks later for my actual brew. Very time consuming project but a lot of fun too! Thanks a load for your answers. Will update later this week!

As long as you keep swirling that flask you should grow new and healthy cells.

When step starters get a little bigger than say 250-500 ml, the preferred method (the more so if we have ample time before brewing) is to cold crash and decant in between steps, to rid the culture of the old starter beer/old wort mixture (containing alcohol and other waste products). It also prevents (heavy) dilution of the new wort added. Keep that in mind for next time.

I'm curious how it all turns out. Keep us updated!

 

[Remos112]

As long as you keep swirling that flask you should grow new and healthy cells.

When step starters get a little bigger than say 250-500 ml, the preferred method (the more so if we have ample time before brewing) is to cold crash and decant in between steps, to rid the culture of the old starter beer/old wort mixture (containing alcohol and other waste products). It also prevents (heavy) dilution of the new wort added. Keep that in mind for next time.

I'm curious how it all turns out. Keep us updated!

Some good pointers there thanks, and I will. At the end of the week I’ll know where I stand[emoji3]

 

[Remos112]

This yeast is a beast!

 

[Remos112]

It is still fermenting and it is starting to smell like delicious fruity beer. Getting more and more excited about this yeast strain

 

[Remos112]

Cold crashed the starter

Will be pitching tomorrow in 19L 1.050 Blond beer

 

[Remos112]

Did an easy extract brew (glorified wheat starter) saterday and pitched into 20L 1.050 it is bubbling away nicely, it smelled extremely fruity, Smells-wise I immediately thought of witbier, might try that in the future if this is a succes.
I washed a small bit of the yeast for safekeeping, very curious how this turns out.

Will update when the beer is drinkable!

 

[Remos112]

This isn't the fastests or most violent yeast strain I've used. Very moderate airlock activity, and after 5 days it's only down at 1.016 fron 1.050, I would have expected it to be finished by now, but I have the time so I'll just wait it out. It is however a fruit bomb like nothing I have ever experienced. The fermentation chamber smells like caramel and banana's like you were in a candy shop. I am fermenting it at 23C at the moment, might set it a bit cooler next time if this turns out to estery.

 

[Remos112]

It;s now 1.010 after one 1 week of fermenting. I will keep it in primary 2 more weeks, last couple of days I will cold crash it.

Tasted the sample, it is fruity, but incredibly bitter, will have to find out what the IBU of the kit was shooting for. Or could this also be a young beer thing that it needs to mellow out some more?

 

[Remos112]

MJ Traditional Lucky Goat Pale Ale:
for 23 liters of beer:
IBU:28-36
ABV:4.4%

I made it 20 liters, and added 500Gr DME and 500Gram of Golden Syrup instead of the prescribed 1kg of sugar to keep some mouthfeel and add a bit of caramel smoothness. would it be save to say I have 23/20=1.15 times as much bitterness on my hands now? This would explain the sample. Good news though, I have enough yeast now for my Gouden Carolus Classic clone i am planning early next year.

 

[Remos112]

1.005 today, so although slow, it does attenuate!