Does matching a water profile with mineral additions also match the PH?

[massination]

Newbie AG brewer here, and learning about matching water profiles. Specifically in Beersmith Water Calculator Tool, you can set a base profile (such as distilled) and target profile (such as Dortmund, Germany), and have it tell you the mineral additions needed. What I'm not sure about, is suppose my starting PH was 7.0 and Target Water Profile PH was say 7.8. Does adding all of those mineral additions end up matching the PH as well? I assume things like baking soda are changing PH some. I ask mainly because I am about to brew a couple batches and dont have a PH meter yet. Beersmith estimates Mash PH, I believe based upon starting PH/water profile, and your grain bill. And it has a calculator to estimate the amount of Acid addition to hit a target Mash PH of 5.2. From what I have heard, its pretty accurate. But I dont know if my starting PH is accurate, as in, is my starting PH 7.0 or 7.8?. Any advise is much appreciated!

 

[Gavin C]

Newbie AG brewer here, and learning about matching water profiles. Specifically in Beersmith Water Calculator Tool, you can set a base profile (such as distilled) and target profile (such as Dortmund, Germany), and have it tell you the mineral additions needed. What I'm not sure about, is suppose my starting PH was 7.0 and Target Water Profile PH was say 7.8. Does adding all of those mineral additions end up matching the PH as well? I assume things like baking soda are changing PH some. I ask mainly because I am about to brew a couple batches and dont have a PH meter yet. Beersmith estimates Mash PH, I believe based upon starting PH/water profile, and your grain bill. And it has a calculator to estimate the amount of Acid addition to hit a target Mash PH of 5.2. From what I have heard, its pretty accurate. But I dont know if my starting PH is accurate, as in, is my starting PH 7.0 or 7.8?. Any advise is much appreciated!

Minerals in the water are one factor which determines mash pH.

Bigger factor (much bigger) is the grain-bill. It has much more buffering capacity than the water. Not all malts are alike, one malster's version of a malt will be different to the next.

The other factor is water volume. More water in a mash will dilute acid ions more and have a higher pH than a thicker mash with the same water and grain-bill.

Starting pH of the water is of little to no value. Two waters, one with minimal mineral content and one with lots of minerals can have the same pH.

Calculating additions. Be careful with the tools out there. Don't use "select automatic additions" some of the programs will spit out a chalk addition as part of that raw numbers calculation.

Chalk is useless. Never use chalk

Mash pH of 5.2 is not the target. Depending on the beer and your preferences you could target a mash pH of 5.2 - 5.5 (excluding sour beers)

Bru'n Water is a great tool. It's free. I would advise learning how to use it. The brew science forum also has some very useful stickied threads (always at the top of the list) that will serve you well should you decide to explore water chemistry in more detail.

TL, DR: The answer is no. Welcome to the forum.

 

[massination]

Minerals in the water are one factor which determines mash pH.

Bigger factor (much bigger) is the grain-bill. It has much more buffering capacity than the water. Not all malts are alike, one malster's version of a malt will be different to the next.

The other factor is water volume. More water in a mash will dilute acid ions more and have a higher pH than a thicker mash with the same water and grain-bill.

Starting pH of the water is of little to no value. Two waters, one with minimal mineral content and one with lots of minerals can have the same pH.

Calculating additions. Be careful with the tools out there. Don't use "select automatic additions" some of the programs will spit out a chalk addition as part of that raw numbers calculation.

Chalk is useless. Never use chalk

Mash pH of 5.2 is not the target. Depending on the beer and your preferences you could target a mash pH of 5.2 - 5.5 (excluding sour beers)

Bru'n Water is a great tool. It's free. I would advise learning how to use it. The brew science forum also has some very useful stickied threads (always at the top of the list) that will serve you well should you decide to explore water chemistry in more detail.

TL, DR: The answer is no. Welcome to the forum.

Thanks for the response. It was really helpful. I downloaded the Bru'n Water spreadsheet and did a comparison of the estimated mash PH vs BeerSmith (using same exact grain bill, water amount, and water profile) and Bru'n Water is calculating in at 5.58 while Beersmith is 5.47. Which one do you think is more accurate?

Edit: Just for clarity on my process, on the "Water Adjustment" tab in Bru'n Water, I took the "Mashing Water Profile" numbers and put those in Beersmith for my water. And am looking at "Estimated Mash PH" in both places.

 

[Yooper]

Thanks for the response. It was really helpful. I downloaded the Bru'n Water spreadsheet and did a comparison of the estimated mash PH vs BeerSmith (using same exact grain bill, water amount, and water profile) and Bru'n Water is calculating in at 5.58 while Beersmith is 5.47. Which one do you think is more accurate?

Bru'nwater, I'm certain.

I also use the free calculator at Brewer's Friend, and it often differs from bru'nwater but not that much.

When I take the actual mash pH, Bru'nwater usually comes very close.

 

[massination]

Bru'nwater, I'm certain.

I also use the free calculator at Brewer's Friend, and it often differs from bru'nwater but not that much.

When I take the actual mash pH, Bru'nwater usually comes very close.

haha, so what could I be doing wrong? I just plugged my grain bill and water profile into Brewers Friend, and its estimating 5.34 Mash PH. I am doing a no-sparge BIAB, so on both brewers friend and Bru'n Water, I set the Total Water and Mash Water to be the same (6.97 gallons), and set Sparge to 0. Thats a difference in PH of .24, which to me sounds pretty big.

 

[RedlegEd]

haha, so what could I doing wrong. I just plugged my grain bill and water profile into Brewers Friend, and its estimating 5.34 Mash PH. I am doing a no-sparge BIAB, so on both brewers friend and Bru'n Water, I set the Total Water and Mash Water to be the same (6.97 gallons), and set Sparge to 0. Thats a difference in PH of .24, which to me sounds pretty big.

Are you using the same starting water profile? Unless you are using Distilled or Reverse Osmosis (RO) water, your starting water chemistry may have a big impact on the final result. Ed

 

[massination]

Are you using the same starting water profile? Unless you are using Distilled or Reverse Osmosis (RO) water, your starting water chemistry may have a big impact on the final result. Ed

Yes. In all 3 places I am using the same starting profile. I'm using my report from Ward Labs. So basically all 3 calculators (beersmith, bru'n water, brewers friend) I have currently set with my profile's numbers being the adjusted/target profile (as in the mash water profile), before I've adjusted with any additions yet. So either I'm missing something, or they're using pretty different calculation methods.

 

[Yooper]

Yes. In all 3 places I am using the same starting profile. I'm using my report from Ward Labs. So basically all 3 calculators (beersmith, bru'n water, brewers friend) I have currently set with my profile's numbers being the adjusted/target profile (as in the mash water profile), before I've adjusted with any additions yet. So either I'm missing something, or they're using pretty different calculation methods.

Yes, that's happened to me too! The calculators seem to all differ (especially EZ water, which is always at least .3 higher than my actual), so I suggest either doing a test mash and checking the pH and seeing which is more accurate or going with the middle of the road one (definitely not all that accurate!).

I found that Brun'water was always the one closest to my actual mash pH, so I chose that one and stuck with it. Brewer's Friend tended to be lower, and EZ water tended to be higher, so in my experience Bru'nwater works best for me.

 

[RedlegEd]

Yes. In all 3 places I am using the same starting profile. I'm using my report from Ward Labs. So basically all 3 calculators (beersmith, bru'n water, brewers friend) I have currently set with my profile's numbers being the adjusted/target profile (as in the mash water profile), before I've adjusted with any additions yet. So either I'm missing something, or they're using pretty different calculation methods.

Unless I'm misunderstanding (and certainly intend no disrespect,) your target profile should be what you are shooting for (i.e. Brown/Full, or Edinburgh) and your starting profile should be your own water report from Ward. The adjustments are what you make to yours to get to the final target. I also use Bru'n Water and Brewer's Friend, but I only shoot for general profiles (e.g. Yellow/Balanced, Brown/Full, etc.) Just because a profile matches water (say in Munich,) doesn't mean the brewers there don't pretreat by boiling or something else. It's generally much easier to get to a flavor profile than a city/locale profile. Ed

 

[RedlegEd]

Yes, that's happened to me too! The calculators seem to all differ (especially EZ water, which is always at least .3 higher than my actual), so I suggest either doing a test mash and checking the pH and seeing which is more accurate or going with the middle of the road one (definitely not all that accurate!).

I found that Brun'water was always the one closest to my actual mash pH, so I chose that one and stuck with it. Brewer's Friend tended to be lower, and EZ water tended to be higher, so in my experience Bru'nwater works best for me.

+1 ^^^this! Ed

 

[massination]

Yes, that's happened to me too! The calculators seem to all differ (especially EZ water, which is always at least .3 higher than my actual), so I suggest either doing a test mash and checking the pH and seeing which is more accurate or going with the middle of the road one (definitely not all that accurate!).

I found that Brun'water was always the one closest to my actual mash pH, so I chose that one and stuck with it. Brewer's Friend tended to be lower, and EZ water tended to be higher, so in my experience Bru'nwater works best for me.

I just tried EZ Water and got 5.65.

So heres the breakdown from lowest to highest:
Brewers Friend: 5.34
Beersmith: 5.47
Bru'n Water: 5.58
EZ Water: 5.65

I think the moral of the story is that I should get a PH Meter if I really want to know. For now so that I can get this batch brewed, maybe I'll just throw the top and bottom result out, and average the middle two.

 

[massination]

Unless I'm misunderstanding (and certainly intend no disrespect,) your target profile should be what you are shooting for (i.e. Brown/Full, or Edinburgh) and your starting profile should be your own water report from Ward. The adjustments are what you make to yours to get to the final target. I also use Bru'n Water and Brewer's Friend, but I only shoot for general profiles (e.g. Yellow/Balanced, Brown/Full, etc.) Just because a profile matches water (say in Munich,) doesn't mean the brewers there don't pretreat by boiling or something else. It's generally much easier to get to a flavor profile than a city/locale profile. Ed

Yeah, I understand that. For now I didnt want to calculate mineral additions on each one but wanted to keep all numbers the same, for the purposes of seeing how the different calculators would estimate the mash PH differently. So for this "test", I was just temporarily using my starting water profile as the target profile. In the end, I'm going to also adjust to the style, which in this case will be an Altbier

 

[RedlegEd]

Yeah, I understand that. For now I didnt want to calculate mineral additions on each one but wanted to keep all numbers the same, for the purposes of seeing how the different calculators would estimate the mash PH differently. So for this "test", I was just temporarily using my starting water profile as the target profile. In the end, I'm going to also adjust to the style, which in this case will be an Altbier

If that's the case, and the mash ratio (qts/lb) is the same, then I'm sure each of the calculators is using a different malt acidification rate to determine mash pH. I also think you're right to get a good pH meter and check your own mash pH. In my experience, Bru'n water is usually within +/- 0.1 on my mash pH, so I've been pretty happy with it. Good luck! Ed

 

[Gavin C]

Yeah, I understand that. For now I didnt want to calculate mineral additions on each one but wanted to keep all numbers the same, for the purposes of seeing how the different calculators would estimate the mash PH differently. So for this "test", I was just temporarily using my starting water profile as the target profile. In the end, I'm going to also adjust to the style, which in this case will be an Altbier

Each calculator uses a different model so different predictions are entirely to be expected.

One example as to why that is the case. Each malt that is entered in any given software will vary in the default value of its proton contribution to the mash. The predicted results for pH will vary as a result.

Bru'n water is a very useful tool with predictions that consistently agree with measured mash pH to an acceptable level of accuracy for my needs.

The free version is good, the pay version is even more useful. There is also a ton of great info to be gleaned from the site and the author himself who is an active member here and on the AHA forum.

I use full volume no sparge mashes. This is no hurdle to managing water profiles and mash pH. If anything it makes the whole process even simpler as there is no acidification of sparge water to be concerned with. You will need to use more acid to get the pH to your target than folks using a thicker mash but that has yet to pose problems for me.

Best of luck with your brewing.

 

[helibrewer]

I will also say that Bru n' Water has been very accurate at predicting my mash pH's