Does anyone brew "lagers" with ale yeast at ale temperatures?

[MatthewMoisen]

I just brewed my first lager (helles bock) and it got me wondering: what would happen if I brewed a malt grain bill typically used for lagers, but with an ale yeast instead of a lager yeast?

For example this helles bock I made is very simple: 66% Pilsener, 33% munich; Magnum hops; and Wyeast 2206.

Tomorrow I'm going to make a simple munich dunkel: 95% munich, 5% carafa special II; Magnug hops and Wyeast 2206.

Instead of using this lager yeast which requires I perform a diactyl rest and a long time of lagering, why can't I just use a neutral ale yeast at ale temperatures?

Has anyone tried using an ale yeast at ale temperatures for a "lager"-- meaning a lager grain bill using predominantly pilsener, munich, vienna, etc? Are there any commercial examples? Why or why not is this a good idea?

 

[VladOfTrub]

"Instead of using this lager yeast which requires I perform a diactyl rest and a long time of lagering, why can't I just use a neutral ale yeast at ale temperatures?"

What leads you to believe that a diacetyl rest is required when lager yeast is used? When you begin to understand what happens to beer after a diacetyl rest is performed and what might have to be done to the beer after the rest is performed, you'll see that it is best to fix the broken brewing process, which is responsible for diacetyl.

Any yeast can be used. If you use Ale yeast, lagering as it is, won't work, except if Kolsch yeast was added. Generally, brewers will use lager yeast and ferment at Ale temperature. The product is called Steam Beer. If you want beer quickly, brew Ale.

There is a little bit more to producing true lager, than dumping hot water on malt at a single point saccharification temperature and rest time. Due to limited shelf life of beer produced by the method, lagering/aging becomes tougher.

 

[BigEd]

Instead of using this lager yeast which requires I perform a diactyl rest and a long time of lagering, why can't I just use a neutral ale yeast at ale temperatures?

Has anyone tried using an ale yeast at ale temperatures for a "lager"-- meaning a lager grain bill using predominantly pilsener, munich, vienna, etc? Are there any commercial examples? Why or why not is this a good idea?

It's not the grain bill that determines whether or not a beer is a lager or an ale, it's the yeast. This subject is one that has been beaten to death but making a beer with a "lager" recipe fermented by an ale yeast produces an ale, not a lager. Yes a psuedo-lager can be produced with a clean ale yeast for those not capable of brewing a beer with lager yeast and lager temperatures but the flavor & aroma profile will not match those of a true lager.

 

[eadavis80]

I'm doing that right now. Doing NB's Oktoberfest with WYeast 1007 at 58-60 degrees. It's closing in on its third week of primary. The yeast has fallen some, but still there is a layer atop the beer that will not settle. Was told by WYeast a 3-5 week primary on that beer in those conditions is fine and if the krausen doesn't fully fall in, just to rack from under the remaining krausen. I'm curious to see how this beer turns out. I'll be doing another batch of the same recipe with WYeast 2112 and am curious to compare the two!

 

[JonM]

I do that all the time. I make lawnmower beers with a base of Pilsner or Maris Otter or whatever and ferment them with a clean ale yeast like 1007. Works great and they're ready fast.

 

[EO74]

I do that all the time. I make lawnmower beers with a base of Pilsner or Maris Otter or whatever and ferment them with a clean ale yeast like 1007. Works great and they're ready fast.

I also do lawnmower beers all the time and always have a light beer keg on tap along with a darker on my other tap. I usually use us-05 or cry havoc with great results after a long cold storage "lagering" period. It's not a true lager but people who try my light beers can't tell the differance, in fact I was asked if one of my cream ales was miller LOL not even close

 

[HB_in_Subic]

One of my favorites is an Amber Bock lager brewed with Ale yeast (Muntons Gold). I don't have the storage space to make lagers.

 

[unionrdr]

I've been messing around with what I call hybrid lagers. I thought it was easier to say/sounded better then pseudo-lagers. Anyway, I use grains, extracts & hops that would be commonly thought of as used in lagers. Then put WL029 Kolsch yeast in a small starter & pitch that.
I realize that WL029 is an ale yeast, but that 's where the similarities end. It's ideal temp range is 65-69F. It produces a lager'like balance between the malts & hops with a nice crispness on the back. Especially when served a bit colder than the usual ale. This seems to heighten the lager-like effects in my opinion. Here's a shot of my "Hopped & Confused" hybrid lager. Version two;

Couldn't find pic of v2?

 

[oogaboogachiefwalkingdeer]

Any yeast can be used. If you use Ale yeast, lagering as it is, won't work, except if Kolsch yeast was added. Generally, brewers will use lager yeast and ferment at Ale temperature. The product is called Steam Beer. If you want beer quickly, brew Ale.

Or try Brulosopher's method and you can have cold clear, good lager bottled in three weeks.

 

[BlkWater_brewer]

I'll will have to side with the lager purists. If you're not using lager yeast and brewing with lager temperatures - what you are making is an Ale. You can call an apple an orange, but that doesn't mean it is. It's the yeast and the cold fermenting that makes a lager. If that makes me a beer snob ****** bag then so be it.

 

[Curtis2010]

+1. You could still brew good beer this way, but it ain't a lager.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Kolsch and Cream Ale, both very lager like. Some lager strains will work very well at ale temperatures (California Lager yeast), and some traditional lager yeasts can ferment well warmer than other lager strains (almost to 60) would would be noticeably fruity. But there's different biological facets between ale and lager yeast that cannot be fooled. The hybrid strains (Koslch, Alt, California Lager) can bridge the gap, but it still won't be the same.

 

[unionrdr]

No. but after some research here there & hither & yon, I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that hybrid yeasts like WL029 are throwbacks to older times a couple hundred years ago. I'd read that in those days, you brewed colder for a lager or warmer for an ale with the same yeast. This was before the purer yeast strains we've separated out these days. My kottbusser was fermented with it, as it comes from about 1500AD, the times when this aspect of yeast seems to have been true.
Although after using WL029 a few times, I also must draw the conclusion that it's not exactly the same as the yeast back then either. Seems like 60-62 is about minimum to get any action out of it. Unless maybe I doubled the pitch, as like when brewing with a true lager yeast. Haven't tried that way yet.

 

[BigEd]

If that makes me a beer snob ****** bag then so be it.

No, it just makes you accurate.

 

[conspiccus]

It's not the grain bill that determines whether or not a beer is a lager or an ale, it's the yeast. This subject is one that has been beaten to death but making a beer with a "lager" recipe fermented by an ale yeast produces an ale, not a lager. Yes a psuedo-lager can be produced with a clean ale yeast for those not capable of brewing a beer with lager yeast and lager temperatures but the flavor & aroma profile will not match those of a true lager.

Have recently wondered this about Hop House Lager from Guinness because they use their Guinness yeast in it. The beer tastes more like an ale to me but is advertised as a lager. Have you tried it? Thoughts about its taste/process?

 

[Steveruch]

I like Wyeast pacman yeast.

 

[Steveruch]

I like Wyeast pacman yeast.View attachment 694864

I have another Last Drop piece about the opposite problem scheduled for the next issue of Zymurgy.