Do I need a new breaker/outlet?

[blizzard]

Sorry for the long explanation on such a basic question. I'm not really sure how this works and not planning to do any of the electrical stuff myself, I'm just not sure what I need.

So there is the main electric panel to my house and then there is a separate, smaller panel in the garage that is wired from the main panel. There is a 3-prong 240 volt outlet wired from the small panel. I want to use that as a power source for an electric brewery.

I want to buy a prefab electric brewery; probably this one: http://www.highgravitybrew.com/store/pc/BIAB-Electric-Brewing-System-158p3987.htm#.UtMRvvYjQWJ

I don't want to electrocute myself or burn down my house.

Do I need to get a GFI breaker installed in that small panel or will it be safe as is? (basically, I'm not sure if this is a "spa panel" and if all spa panels are automatically GFI or if I have something else)

Do I need to have a 4-prong outlet installed instead of the 3-prong? The brewing system I am looking at comes with this warning: "GFCI type breaker cannot be used with the 3-wire installation. GFCI must use 4-wire installation with separate neutral and ground."

Thanks for the help!

 

[grathan]

GFCI breakers have a white pigtail wire coming off from them. Chances are it is not gfci so you would need a gfci breaker to match that small box ( a new spa panel box will cost about the same or less as the breaker will cost ).

Yes you will need 4 prong outlet if it says you need 4 wires. (not all prefabs need 4 prong)

Running a new wire and new breaker will probably cost $150-$200 for parts.

 

[blizzard]

Ok, thanks for the response.

I took a photo inside the panel... It looks like these are not gfci even though they have 4 wires. That hole in the bottom right corner is the conduit that goes to the 240v outlet.

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1417286435.925305.jpg

Are you saying I can get a prefab system with a three prong plug and still use a gfci breaker, but just not the one I linked to?

Thanks again.

 

[cgraber]

Blizzard you will be fine with that prefabbed unit. You don't have a GFCI breaker. The breaker would have a pus button on it for testing the breaker. you said the outlet is in the garage so an electrician would't put in a GFCI they are only used in wet locations such as an outlet near a sink.

 

[ajdelange]

First thing I'd do is get a professional electrician in there to have a look. I can't see for sure but it looks as if white and bare (copper) wires are tied to the same ground bar (left side with cross head screws). They should be separate. But then looking at where the feed comes in I only see black, red and white. There should be a separate green or uninsulated wire for ground. That should go to one half (say the lower half) of the ground bus and all the uninsulated and green wires should go to that and that bar should be bonded to the box. The other half (upper) of that left side bar would connect all the white wires including the one from the feed conduit. There should be some arrangement, such as a bonding screw, bits of insulation... that permit the two bars to be isolated or joined with at least one side bonded to the box. The problem is I that do not see a ground wire coming in with the feed. I do see a green wire but it seems to be part of a group of 3 (black, white, green) wires - not the feed circuit.

In summary, I see white and bare/green wires connected to the same bus in a sub panel. This is a no-no. Further to that it appears that the sub panel may be improperly fed. In an older house you never know who installed what. It may have been the homeowner himself relying on his boy scout electrician merit badge or it may have been an electrician who didn't understand the code. I've seen that happen. It happened to me over this same issue (joining ground and neutral in a sub panel). That's what we have inspectors for and that's why I'm sensitive to this issue. A whole side of drywall had to be ripped out so the dumb )$%@ electrician could go back in and install a proper earth wire.

It was, up until fairly recently, considered acceptable to feed a dryer or range with two phases and ground (red, black, bare/green) and that's what you have here. For this to have been properly connected you would have the bare/green wire to the outlet connected to a ground bar, separate from the neutral bar, and that ground bar would be connected to a bare or green wire from the main panel. It appears, therefore, that there may be multiple errors in the wiring of your current panel. Hence the recommendation that a pro look at it.

To make the installation proper you would need to a fourth wire from the main panel to this sub panel. Since metallic conduit is being used it is possible that it may serve as the earthing conductor subject to jumpering around joints etc (I have some vague recollection of this). Someone who knows the code better than I would need to review this - another reason for getting a pro in. Then the two lower breakers should be removed and replaced with an GFCI breaker. This will cost you a few bucks but is well worth it in a situation where you are mixing electricity and liquids. Then 4 wires should be pulled from the sub panel to a 4 prong outlet where you wish to plug in your device. All will, at this point, be kosher. You will be code compliant and will have the benefits of GFCI protection.

Note that the wiring errors I think I may be seeing will not burn you house down. The reason they are dissallowed is that they can lead to voltages above ground on equipment enclosures if loads are not perfectly balanced between the sides of the system.

 

[blizzard]

Alright, I'll plan to get a GFI breaker installed and have someone take a look at the wiring/code situation. Thanks everyone for your input.

 

[grathan]

I know ground loops can make the gfci breaker seem finicky. I have all my neutrals separated from the grounds on different bars and still ran into troubles when I had an extra ground wire touching my brewstand.

You still should be able to run 3 wire from that box as is though, not sure about 4 wires.

 

[ajdelange]

I know ground loops can make the gfci breaker seem finicky. I have all my neutrals separated from the grounds on different bars and still ran into troubles when I had an extra ground wire touching my brewstand.

That's the GFCI telling you something. Return current is flowing through that extra ground wire i.e. there is leakage between one of your phases and the extra ground wire. I'd look for the source of that.

You still should be able to run 3 wire from that box as is though, not sure about 4 wires.

I went back and checked the code. He doesn't need 4 wires as the conduit is acceptable as a grounding conductor. The relevant paragraph is 250.118. This also explains why there is no separate grounding wire in the bundle feeding the box. He will, however, need to pull an additional: the neutral (white) wire in order to install a 4 prong outlet which he will need to do if he is going to put a GFCI breaker in the panel and be compliant with the current code.

That conduit looks pretty full (there appears to be at least one other set of wires in there too) but if this is all in a garage its probably pretty accessible and the run probably isn't too long so it might be possible to pull a tape in by pulling the black or red out and then pull black and white (or red and white) back in via the tape. Use lube!

This does not change my recommendation that a pro look at this box and its connection to the main panel. There is still the question of the interconnection of neutral and ground and the feed is very strange. A 60 amp sub panel is normally wired from a 60 amp breaker in the main panel and the wires from that breaker run to the two large lugs at the top of the breaker stack. Why is this box backfed from an (additional) pair of breakers in the box? Perhaps for local disconnect but its not usual (AFAIK).

 

[Fatman_Brew]

I went back and checked the code. He doesn't need 4 wires as the conduit is acceptable as a grounding conductor. The relevant paragraph is 250.118. This also explains why there is no separate grounding wire in the bundle feeding the box. He will, however, need to pull an additional: the neutral (white) wire in order to install a 4 prong outlet which he will need to do if he is going to put a GFCI breaker in the panel and be compliant with the current code.

That conduit looks pretty full (there appears to be at least one other set of wires in there too) but if this is all in a garage its probably pretty accessible and the run probably isn't too long so it might be possible to pull a tape in by pulling the black or red out and then pull black and white (or red and white) back in via the tape. Use lube!

This does not change my recommendation that a pro look at this box and its connection to the main panel. There is still the question of the interconnection of neutral and ground and the feed is very strange. A 60 amp sub panel is normally wired from a 60 amp breaker in the main panel and the wires from that breaker run to the two large lugs at the top of the breaker stack. Why is this box backfed from an (additional) pair of breakers in the box? Perhaps for local disconnect but its not usual (AFAIK).

All these concerns make me skeptical the conduit is an equipment ground. Too many variables for anyone to go off of one photo. Is the garage attached? Is the wiring grand fathered 3 wire? Is there a bonding screw in the buss to the panel? I am not comfortable with neutrals and grounds on the same apparent buss, but then again, I don't know what I don't know. I agree, have it looked at.

 

[blizzard]

Damn it.

I don't have a problem having someone look at it, but I'm disappointed that there might be some significant rewiring.

Thanks for the help everyone.

 

[augiedoggy]

I would shop around before committing to buying the control panal you linked... it work fine but it seems to have an extremely High markup (like 4-500%) over building cost for some reason. there are tons of othermore reasonable alternatives like thes ones I just pulled up on ebay which is being made and sold by a member (Brumateur) here...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Beer-brewin...t=LH_DefaultDomain_2&var=&hash=item338ca0a6d5

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brumatic-DB...100010&prg=11353&rk=10&rkt=24&sd=221425538910


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Beer-brewin...=100010&prg=11353&rk=1&rkt=24&sd=221402670805

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brumatic-DB...=100010&prg=11353&rk=4&rkt=24&sd=221425538910

and just an fyi those high gravity ones are sold as DIY without the plug attached so you do final assembly and assume responsibility if something goes wrong as far as I understand it.

 

[blizzard]

Awesome, thanks for the links. I'll check those out and maybe get a little more input from the forum.

 

[blizzard]

Also, I think in part the High Gravity system is more expensive because it is a complete system with the pot, pump, controls, and sensors. But it's definitely worth shopping around, so thanks for the info.

 

[Hello]

Blizzard you will be fine with that prefabbed unit. You don't have a GFCI breaker. The breaker would have a pus button on it for testing the breaker. you said the outlet is in the garage so an electrician would't put in a GFCI they are only used in wet locations such as an outlet near a sink.

It depends on his location. In my state, GFCI is required in garages. In fact, I removed one to use a fridge and my electrician told me that was a no-no. I didn't tell him it was me that removed it because the fridge was tripping it. I've gotten quotes for a new 240v plug to run a Brumatic control panel (50a) and it is absolutely GFCI because that is what code requires. It'll go into a shed and still remain GFCI because there will be water present. Better safe than sorry. I also checked my insurance coverage, you know, just in case.

I would call someone out. They usually come for free, mine have, and they'll give you a quote. Make sure they know what AMP you need, 30a/50a etc. Also, find out what NEMA number outlet they're installing so you can be sure your power plug is compatible. I'm in the early stages of this and I definitely have learned a thing or two.

I would shop around before committing to buying the control panal you linked... it work fine but it seems to have an extremely High markup (like 4-500%) over building cost for some reason. there are tons of othermore reasonable alternatives like thes ones I just pulled up on ebay which is being made and sold by a member (Brumateur) here...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Beer-brewin...t=LH_DefaultDomain_2&var=&hash=item338ca0a6d5

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brumatic-DB...100010&prg=11353&rk=10&rkt=24&sd=221425538910


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Beer-brewin...=100010&prg=11353&rk=1&rkt=24&sd=221402670805

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brumatic-DB...=100010&prg=11353&rk=4&rkt=24&sd=221425538910

and just an fyi those high gravity ones are sold as DIY without the plug attached so you do final assembly and assume responsibility if something goes wrong as far as I understand it.

Agreed on going this route. Brumatic (Alex), who is a member here has been amazing with me. I haven't even ordered the panel (I will be doing that next week) but he has walked me through just about everything I could want without even knowing whether I was going to pony up the cash for a panel. I'm not into DIY major electrical work so having him to handle the panel and my electrician to handle the wiring is the combo I'll be going with.


Cost wise, it is $465 to install a 50A 240v dedicated circuit which does include 30' of romex & breaker. I have another $335 added to that if I put this thing in a shed that I intend to buy because they have to trench the electrical at about 18" underground. While not cheap, I just fear screwing something up and something catching fire. I think I can get the outlet installed slightly cheaper, they were the middle of the road quote but they did work for me for brewing in my kitchen last March and did great. I'm happy to give them my business.