Do American's have an imature beer taste palate?

[InLimbo]

People regularly defend awful beer by saying it is "hard to make". "Hard to make" is not a defense and does not necessarily equate to quality or good taste. Just my opinion.

I personally don't drink BMC and probably never will again. But with that said...

Hard to make? Of course not.

But a Budweiser will take like a budweiser anywhere in the WORLD that it is sold (storage, handling, and distribution practices not withstanding). You have absolutely no idea how incredible their quality control practices are, and how difficult it is to make the same beer (regardless of its taste--or lack there of) for decades and decades. Try to make the same beer several times on the homebrew scale. You will notice variances each times, and you're just working with 5 gallon batches. Try it with zillion barrel batches.

 

[gbx]

No. American beer is arguably the best in the world, and we certainly make the best IPAs. Europeans drink plenty of mediocre beer as well (Beck's, Stella Artois, etc.).

I think the american IPA could be considered evidence for rather than against. American craft brewing is all about the most extreme flavour experience and imperial strength versions rather than an enjoyable session beer with subtle complexity. There is no middle ground...just piss water lagers and extreme craft beer

 

[fxdude]

But a Budweiser will take like a budweiser anywhere in the WORLD that it is sold (storage, handling, and distribution practices not withstanding). You have absolutely no idea how incredible their quality control practices are, and how difficult it is to make the same beer (regardless of its taste--or lack there of) for decades and decades. Try to make the same beer several times on the homebrew scale. You will notice variances each times, and you're just working with 5 gallon batches. Try it with zillion barrel batches.

Funny how the more I brewed the more I came to respect something like Bud Light. I understand the evils of their marketing and hogging of shelf space but their consistency is absolutely remarkable for such a low flavored beer. I believe their hop specialist is one one of the better ones in the nation if not the world and consults on all levels even on the craft beer level. Obviously they have the cash to pay for the best but don't ever look down on someone because they're the hop specialist of Budweiser.

 

[ryno1ryno]

I personally don't drink BMC and probably never will again. But with that said...

Hard to make? Of course not.

But a Budweiser will take like a budweiser anywhere in the WORLD that it is sold (storage, handling, and distribution practices not withstanding). You have absolutely no idea how incredible their quality control practices are, and how difficult it is to make the same beer (regardless of its taste--or lack there of) for decades and decades. Try to make the same beer several times on the homebrew scale. You will notice variances each times, and you're just working with 5 gallon batches. Try it with zillion barrel batches.

How many bad batches does Budweiser dump out per year?

That would be an interesting statistic.

 

[Airborneguy]

I think the american IPA could be considered evidence for rather than against. American craft brewing is all about the most extreme flavour experience and imperial strength versions rather than an enjoyable session beer with subtle complexity. There is no middle ground...just piss water lagers and extreme craft beer

There's plenty going on in the middle.

 

[TheBreweryUnderground]

Great! Another BMC love thread...

Does anybody ever get tired of hearing about consistency or how hard it is to brew p*ss water? What's the point of quality control when what you're drinking is sterile perrier? I can enjoy a real pilsner or helles, but pale american lager? If other people want to drink it, fine whatever. If other people support these companies, I disagree with their buying habits and these businesses but they're going to do it anyway. But why do we feel the need to defend BMC so much on this forum? They have expensive lawyers and advertising for that, we don't need to keep telling each other that what they do is hard. If I had a billion dollars to blow on jacketed fermentors and quality control I bet I'd have pretty consistent batches too.

 

[rklinck]

Why the need to refer to BMC as "p*ss water"? Different strokes for different folks. To use food as an analogy, I love spicy food. I will always get the hottest buffalo wings on the menu, but I don't begrudge people who choose to get the mild wings (and I certainly don't claim they have unrefined palates). Some people don't like that much spice and some people don't like that much malty or hop flavor. There is nothing wrong with that, and the major brewers cater to this taste by producing beers that are very light in flavor.

That being said, I think many people choose BMC by default (e.g., because they have not been exposed to good quality craft beer) or because their initial venture into non-BMC beer was not a good one. I am originally from a relatively small town in Texas. I don't remember any craft beer and everything besides BMC sat on the shelf so it would likely have been stale. As a result, through college, I did not drink much of anything but BMC and an occasional Shiner Bock. Then I moved to Boston and was exposed to "ales." Unfortunately, the first ale I tried was an IPA. I can't recall which IPA, but my delicate sensibilities were shocked a bit too much by the bitterness. I did not know much at the time, so I attributed the flavor to ales more generally and it took me a while to venture out after that.

 

[ludomonster]

I think the american IPA could be considered evidence for rather than against. American craft brewing is all about the most extreme flavour experience and imperial strength versions rather than an enjoyable session beer with subtle complexity. There is no middle ground...just piss water lagers and extreme craft beer

I've been trying to find a good dry stout but all I seem to see is Murphy's and Guiness. Everyone else is making American or imperial stouts.

 

[skw]

Who would have a mature beer palate then? Not us Germans, at least the beer that our largest brewery produces (Oettinger) is sold primarily because it's cheap, not because it fits somebody's taste. I have friends who drink Bud because they like the taste, but I haven't met anyone yet who bought Oettinger for that reason.

 

[dadshomebrewing]

what was the point of this thread?

 

[DrunkleJon]

Taste is subjective. When I first started drinking beer I did not exactly love it, but it got the job done. It seemed to have a strong flavor then. After a few sessons I grew accustomed to BL and developed a taste for it. I then enjoyed it for quite a while until I introduced myself to beer with more flavor and realized that I liked them better and then the BMC beers started tasting like water though previously they tasted like sucking on a copper penny to me initially. So what if people enjoy BMC? I still enjoy a Bud/L on occasion especially on a hot summer. I enjoy the lite beers when I am up for drinking quantity, especially on a hot day, or when my wallet is feeling a little light as well.

Drink what you enjoy, Dont judge others for doing the same. Encourage people to experiment if they want to, but do not persecute people for enjoying the yellow fizzy waters.

 

[emjay]

No. Why should anyone do that? If they try something and don't like it why try to "learn" to like it?

You've never heard of something being an acquired taste? Hell, even BMC is somewhat of an acquired taste... many, if not most, people don't even really like BMC beer at first taste. And acquiring tastes can be very rewarding, allowing you to appreciate some great stuff you didn't originally care for, and even actually allow you to better appreciate many things you did.

It's no coincidence that most of what are considered to be "the finer things" are also considered to require some effort. And this doesn't only hold for food and drink; it applies equally to things such as art, music, film, etc. (There are certainly reasons for this, but that is another matter completely, on which entire books and scholarly works been written). So by not putting in the effort to acquire some of these tastes, one risks missing out on many of life's greatest pleasures. It's no surprise that the "easy" stuff to like, like chicken fingers and french fries, are often relegated to kids menus... and one who sticks to similarly "easy" tastes essentially has the palate of a child.

And as homebrewers, we actually have the ability to make acquiring certain tastes more easily than others. I originally did not like stouts. I love realky dark chocolate (another acquired taste), but couldn't stand "roasty" beers, to the point that I couldn't even drink an Irish Red... even Smithwick's was too roasty for me! But I wanted to be able to better appreciate beer in its totality, and beers with roasted grains make up a pretty large proportion of that, so I considered it unacceptable. I chose to tackle this in baby steps... I first made a milk stout with chocolate, using only some chocolate malt and debittered carats for getting closer to the roasted character. It was a pretty easy beer to like, and after getting accustomed to it, I could brew (or even buy) a slightly more roasty beer, and after getting accustomed to THAT, repeating the process. It actually didn't take very long at all 'til I was drinking intense imperial stouts and liking them, and I'm VERY glad I put in the necessary effort, especially now that I can truly appreciate what I would have been missing!

I imagine this is a much longer reply than you were counting on, so to sum it up, I would answer your question with another question: why should an adult forgo the chance to be able to appreciate some of life's greatest pleasures just because they don't happen to instantly love something?

Just throwing my two cents in here, but having a discerning palate that is appreciative of many styles is kind of the point of being a beer aficionado. Plus, there is such a thing as sub par beer. Those two items mean that it is possible and not elitist for an educated palate to state truthfully that someone's tastes are limited if they only drink crap beer, especially if it's because they haven't tried anything else.

And this, I suppose.

 

[Homercidal]

I think the american IPA could be considered evidence for rather than against. American craft brewing is all about the most extreme flavour experience and imperial strength versions rather than an enjoyable session beer with subtle complexity. There is no middle ground...just piss water lagers and extreme craft beer

Please. Do a little research before spouting such nonsense.

There is a LOT of middle ground beer in American Craft.

Maybe you could offer a suggestion as to what would constitute a "middle ground" beer for you?

 

[highgravitybacon]

what was the point of this thread?

To prove that the samurai is better than the cossacks?

 

[F250]

what was the point of this thread?

Who knows? I'm pretty sure the OP doesn't.

Rick

 

[smitty2324]

I think the american IPA could be considered evidence for rather than against. American craft brewing is all about the most extreme flavour experience and imperial strength versions rather than an enjoyable session beer with subtle complexity. There is no middle ground...just piss water lagers and extreme craft beer

I so agree with this. I'm very excited about the emergence of the craft beer industry, but I also tend to gravitate toward session beers. Even going to a top tier beer bar, anything under 6% alcohol is going to be a wheat beer or a BMC. I think there is a huge market for well made, less extreme beers still unexplored in the US. I honestly get upset when I go out and get a unique high alc brew and they hand me a full pint. (I know....good problem to have, until you can barely stand up and you had 3 beers.)

Since the market isn't really there, I tend to brew a lot of English Pales and IPAs, light rye pales, and farm house ales.

 

[JordanThomas]

I think the american IPA could be considered evidence for rather than against. American craft brewing is all about the most extreme flavour experience and imperial strength versions rather than an enjoyable session beer with subtle complexity. There is no middle ground...just piss water lagers and extreme craft beer

Wow, you couldn't be more off base. Many of the highly sought after American craft beers ARE imperial strength ales, but there are so many great session ales from craft breweries around the States. Founders, as an example, is a great craft brewery located in my hometown, and they currently have 8 beers under 5.5%. 6 of those are under 5%!

http://foundersbrewing.com/whats-on-tap/?av-submitted=true

I didn't even mention Jolly Pumpkin! They brew awesome sours, many of which are under 5%. Also highly sought after and well reviewed.

 

[rustym]

The whole premise of the question is wrong. It already assumes that European beer is superior to American beer. We have some of the best beers in the world here in the US. And I would say, a lot bigger selection of beers with unique profiles.

 

[unionrdr]

I found out some months ago by some of the members of the Cooper's forums that finally made the trip up here. They wanted to find out for themselves what in the world I was talking about. Mostly why I added so much flavor/aroma hops to an IPA! They found out from other foreigners that we are now concidered the beer capitol of the world,so far as our craft beers are concerned. They told me as much on the Cooper's forums. Now they even styarted messing around with my APA's. Kinda gratifying that I was able to help in some small way,turn them on to what we do with beer.
Not like I'm gloting...just sayin...

 

[Airborneguy]

Unionrdr, thank you for going back to a larger font! I haven't been able to read your posts for months (and really wanted to)!!

 

[F250]

I found out some months ago by some of the members of the Cooper's forums that finally made the trip up here. They wanted to find out for themselves what in the world I was talking about. Mostly why I added so much flavor/aroma hops to an IPA! They found out from other foreigners that we are now concidered the beer capitol of the world,so far as our craft beers are concerned. They told me as much on the Cooper's forums. Now they even styarted messing around with my APA's. Kinda gratifying that I was able to help in some small way,turn them on to what we do with beer.
Not like I'm gloting...just sayin...

Where were these guys from?

Rick

 

[mikeh80]

Wow, you couldn't be more off base. Many of the highly sought after American craft beers ARE imperial strength ales, but there are so many great session ales from craft breweries around the States. Founders, as an example, is a great craft brewery located in my hometown, and they currently have 8 beers under 5.5%. 6 of those are under 5%!

http://foundersbrewing.com/whats-on-tap/?av-submitted=true

I didn't even mention Jolly Pumpkin! They brew awesome sours, many of which are under 5%. Also highly sought after and well reviewed.

http://www.stonebrewing.com/levitation/

Another great one. (And from someone whom you wouldn't expect to make a session beer. lol)

 

[gbx]

Please. Do a little research before spouting such nonsense.

There is a LOT of middle ground beer in American Craft.

Maybe you could offer a suggestion as to what would constitute a "middle ground" beer for you?

The bjcp appears to agree- adding the "American" prefix to extreme hopped, higher strength versions of european styles (pale ale, ipa, brown ale, stout). But maybe I'm wrong about america as my only experience with american craft beer is the resiny bong water ipa's of washington and oregon.

 

[F250]

The bjcp appears to agree- adding the "American" prefix to extreme hopped, higher strength versions of european styles (pale ale, ipa, brown ale, stout). But maybe I'm wrong about america as my only experience with american craft beer is the resiny bong water ipa's of washington and oregon.

Yeah, cause that's certainly the whole country and the entire breadth of what's brewed here.

Rick

 

[rexbanner]

I like big beers. America certainly doesn't have a monopoly on big beers. All the Belgian Trappist styles start at around 7% and just keep going up. I'm drinking a 10% quad I made right now. There's nothing wrong with liking/making big beers.

A lot of people like smaller beers because they can drink many of them and not get drunk. For the opposite reason, I like bigger beers. I like to feel the effects of alcohol when I drink. I've spent years brewing and drinking 7% and up beers which has caused my alcohol tolerance to spike. I won't feel anything drinking a 4% beer, at least at a reasonable pace. If I drink one 10% beer, I get a nice little warm feeling, but it also goes away quickly so my head clears and I can drive.

I think a lot of reasons people don't like big American beers is that they are poorly made. Beer ratings sites are populated by beer nerds who in reality don't have a very highly developed sense of taste and will generally prefer burlier beers, regardless of how well they are made. This leads to breweries cranking out big beers. Also, breweries want to try new things. A new bourbon barrel aged RIS is more exciting than a new American wheat to a lot of people.

The problem is, bigger beers are harder to make. I don't just like bigger beers, though. I also brew a lot of smaller ones (I make a kickass mild). The facts are, bigger ales are just harder to make than smaller ales. I've brewed just about every style of ale out there, and the hardest styles to formulate recipes for and brew successfully are bigger ales that use a lot of specialty malts. I have no idea about lagers since I have never brewed them. With ales, though, you might need to age them a few months to find out how the flavors meld. Commercial breweries can't really age for too long, and if they can, it's still hard to tweak a beer that takes six months in a barrel to release. It's going to get released, even if it sucks.

The results of all of this is that some American breweries release some bottled big beers that are just God-awful. I'm not going to name any names, but I think we have all tasted some expensive bombers of beer and thought "Wow, the first time the brewer cracked open one of these they must have felt like ****."

 

[bovineblitz]

German Beers, Wheat beers, Bitter beers... heck even grapefruit can take some getting used to.

I am just sayin... I do find that a lot of the hoppy beers can be annoying to drink since I am spoiled by the clean light beers. Perhaps this is why a lot of homebrewers attempt the sweet amber ales so often?

Idk about you, but I see a lot more attempts at huge hoppy beers from homebrewers than sweeter beers.

That includes me for the most part because I just really like hops.

 

[ryno1ryno]

I think this taste chart/scale is pretty useful when picking a style to brew.

http://www.howtobrew.com/images/f111.jpg

There are so many possibilities when it comes to brewing beer, I find it to be an amazing hobby.

As far as the OP, I would say that if you have never been to Europe and tried their beer in country and have experienced their culture and have an understanding of their beer brewing history... if you havent experienced that, then your judgement on European beer is in fact, immature.

 

[two_hearted]

I think its a familiarity thing. By and large, people around here, in the Midwest, like to know exactly what they are going to have. Its comforting to know what to expect on the menu at your local chain restaurant. Its comforting to have a beer that tastes like the beer you've known all of your life.

Its comforting to know that you don't like coconut. Even if you eat 2-3 coconut shrimp before you realize that there is coconut in it and that, in fact, you don't like them anymore.

Craft beer is "dark" and "too heavy", ethnic food is "too spicy" and sushi is "gross raw fish." This is unfamiliar territory. Its a lot easier to just drink a bud (or go wild with a blue moon) with your ultimate smothered Jack Daniels burger at TJ McFunsters.

 

[JordanThomas]

The bjcp appears to agree- adding the "American" prefix to extreme hopped, higher strength versions of european styles (pale ale, ipa, brown ale, stout). But maybe I'm wrong about america as my only experience with american craft beer is the resiny bong water ipa's of washington and oregon.

Wow, you need to read the BJCP style guide again. Most of the styles that are "AMERICAN" in BJCP style and name are only that because of ingredients.

1A
1B
1C
6D
10A
10B
10C

All of these start at about 4-4.5%

English and American IPA (14A and 14B) both go from 5/5.5-7.5%

Again, you are misconstruing the guidelines and getting the wrong impression of American craft brewing.

 

[Homercidal]

The bjcp appears to agree- adding the "American" prefix to extreme hopped, higher strength versions of european styles (pale ale, ipa, brown ale, stout). But maybe I'm wrong about america as my only experience with american craft beer is the resiny bong water ipa's of washington and oregon.

But you assume that all American Craft brewers are making American versions of all types of beers. Besides the obvious American IPA, they also make a range of pales, blondes, stouts, browns, etc... Not all of them are "American" (bigger and badder) versions of the beer.

And there are MANY who are brewing things that aren't even in the BJCP, which is only useful for judging beer in a BJCP competition. The BJCP guidelines aren't a comprehensive set of rules to follow for all beer styles.

Brewers make these things because they love them. Lots of craft beer fans enjoy them. They give a name to the brewery and a kind of reputation. most brewers also make several "regular" beers for the average joe who isn't looking to shock their tastebuds.

 

[gbx]

Wow, you need to read the BJCP style guide again. Most of the styles that are "AMERICAN" in BJCP style and name are only that because of ingredients.

1A
1B
1C
6D
10A
10B
10C

Right! I forgot about the other way the BJCP uses the "American" prefix - to describe watered down (in flavour) versions of european styles (american lagers, american dark lager, american wheat etc)

But you assume that all American Craft brewers are making American versions of all types of beers. Besides the obvious American IPA, they also make a range of pales, blondes, stouts, browns, etc... Not all of them are "American" (bigger and badder) versions of the beer.

And the pales, stouts and browns are hoppy as ****! All brewed hoppier and stronger than an IPA would have been 10 years ago. Unless they decide to call it a "session" beer...but it will still be 5% (the "american" craft beer reinheitsgebot prohibits beer less than 5%...and its only acceptable to sell a beer that doesn't reek of C hops if you add another stupid adjunct)

The BJCP guidelines aren't a comprehensive set of rules to follow for all beer styles.

This is what everyone says whenever there is any criticism of the guidelines but then you look at their ratebeer or beeradvocate reviews and they are criticizing a stout for not being to style because it isn't "roasty" enough. But I wasn't accusing anyone of brewing to style, just pointing out how the BJCP uses the "american" prefix.

 

[JordanThomas]

Right! I forgot about the other way the BJCP uses the "American" prefix - to describe watered down (in flavour) versions of european styles (american lagers, american dark lager, american wheat etc)

It's pretty offensive to read what you have to say, particularly because you have a limited (clearly) experience with American craft beers. I've never been to a Canadian craft brewery, and I've only had beers from a few craft breweries based in Canada, so you won't see me spewing generalizations about Canadian craft beer. I guess that's what separates us.

 

[gbx]

It's pretty offensive to read what you have to say, particularly because you have a limited (clearly) experience with American craft beers. I've never been to a Canadian craft brewery, and I've only had beers from a few craft breweries based in Canada, so you won't see me spewing generalizations about Canadian craft beer. I guess that's what separates us.

sorry to *OFFEND* you but the entire thread is about american's taste sensibilities and your countries love for watered down lagers! Is it offensive that I brought craft brewing into the discussion (with its tendency to brew the polar opposite of coors light)? If you are offended because I use the term "american", I'm sorry and please note that I have much of the same criticisms of the canadian craft brewing scene too - imperial strength, IBU pissing contests and stupid adjunct beers. I'm sure I have **** on cask nights at craft breweries in this forum on some thread ("if you can't get your normal beers pulling clear with a decent head, don't try to put a one-off specialty beer on cask")

 

[JordanThomas]

sorry to *OFFEND* you but the entire thread is about american's taste sensibilities and your countries love for watered down lagers! Is it offensive that I brought craft brewing into the discussion (with its tendency to brew the polar opposite of coors light)? If you are offended because I use the term "american", I'm sorry and please note that I have much of the same criticisms of the canadian craft brewing scene too - imperial strength, IBU pissing contests and stupid adjunct beers. I'm sure I have **** on cask nights at craft breweries in this forum on some thread ("if you can't get your normal beers pulling clear with a decent head, don't try to put a one-off specialty beer on cask")

And again, I'll point out that the "imperial strength, IBU pissing contests and stupid adjunct beers" are only the ones you're looking at. Selection bias. You are taking the highly sought after beers and putting them together and summing them up as "American craft brew styles." It's just not the case. If all you want to see if the extreme stuff, go ahead. But it's a Gaussian function and you're only choosing to see the 32%.

 

[F250]

There's some live ones in this thread and at least two of them have no clue, but forge on anyway.

Rick

 

[unionrdr]

Nah,I think they're just "'avin a piss" as the Brits would say. Nobody wants to loose face,even though there foot is already in there mouth for all to see. Just give it up & move on.
I agree that there is a certain percentage of the population with there heads fermly entrenched in BCB's as my son & I call them (Big Corporate Brews). But there's a significant amount of them that try craft brews & some of those that move on to craft beer & home brewing. There will always be a couple sides to this argument. So I say Rejoice in the fact that we have so many choices in the USA nowadays & leave it at that. There is no one right answer. By it's very nature,the argument can't allow for it.

 

[gbx]

And again, I'll point out that the "imperial strength, IBU pissing contests and stupid adjunct beers" are only the ones you're looking at. Selection bias. You are taking the highly sought after beers and putting them together and summing them up as "American craft brew styles." It's just not the case. If all you want to see if the extreme stuff, go ahead. But it's a Gaussian function and you're only choosing to see the 32%.

maybe thats true as those are the only beers that get exported to canada or are talked up so when I go to seattle or portland I seek them out. ...maybe my problem is that canadian craft brewers here have only had those beers too and our scene is just a copy of the extreme sides of american craft brewing.

 

[F250]

Nah,I think they're just "'avin a piss" as the Brits would say. Nobody wants to loose face,even though there foot is already in there mouth for all to see. Just give it up & move on.
I agree that there is a certain percentage of the population with there heads fermly entrenched in BCB's as my son & I call them (Big Corporate Brews). But there's a significant amount of them that try craft brews & some of those that move on to craft beer & home brewing. There will always be a couple sides to this argument. So I say Rejoice in the fact that we have so many choices in the USA nowadays & leave it at that. There is no one right answer. By it's very nature,the argument can't allow for it.

Agreed. These days I walk into the supermarket, even here in the hinterlands, and half+ of the selection is craft brews or imports. Shoot, we even have our own brew pub now that makes excellent beers, stouts, IPA's pale ales, brown ales, ect.

Rick

 

[45_70sharps]

I'm here to tell you some people never talk to your kids to keep her mouth shut if they don't know what the hell they're talking about.

I would hate to even guess at how many thousands of different American beers are available.
If you don't like the ones that you've had I'm sure there are many thousands more out there with probably hundreds of them that would be to your liking.
If the ones that are big sellers aren't beers that you like maybe the problem is more with your tastes than with the beers available.
There are tons of styles of beer that I would like to try, that are brewed right here in the good old United States, but part of the price of living in a small town is lacking of beer selection.

 

[unionrdr]

Trouble is not all craft beers are available everywhere.