Distance between false bottom and heating element

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Kmcogar

Kmcogar

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I just received my heating element. It appears that I need to raise my false bottom. Is there a recommended distance from the false bottom to the heating element? Or heating element to this bottom of the kettle?

I'm thinking I'm going to cut the false bottom legs in the middle to extend them out for space. Any other ideas are a welcome!
 
Looks to me like you could re bend the legs to gain extra height, just be careful not to bend the FB.

Oops looked at the photos again, that's not gonna work. Maybe drill holes in the FB supports and add nuts and bolts to make legs to raise FB.
 
Can you make a stand out of stainless steel NPT parts? Think a table with no top. Just legs and a frame. I bet 1/4" pipe is more than strong enough.

No welding, no cutting, twist it together.

I would have to go down to Home Depot and play with plumbing parts to get a design I would be happy with. Then order the SS parts from McMaster. (Sorry HD)
 
Fwiw, I wouldn't cut the current legs, that is what gives them strength, but would just fix something, like a 1" long bolt and two nuts to make a standee.
 
Yeah your probably right about that.... I don't want to weaken the legs
 
I am not an electric brewer. It if I were, I would want to protect my heating elements from misadventure. A false bottom to shield hand mechanically isolate it sounds like a good idea to me.
 
Gameface said:
The use of a false bottom indicates there will be grain in that vessel, therefore wort. Wort can scorch.
Click to expand...

The use of a false bottom, properly installed, means the element is kept apart from the grain. It cannot scorch what it cannot touch.

Isn't this what the whole thread is about? The heating element was a bit "taller" than the legs on his false bottom, and he wants to devise a way to keep the element from touching the false bottom. At that point, the grain will be above the false bottom and the element will be below it, and it will not be in contact with same.

At full boil, the wort will hit 212F. Water does not get hotter than that, other than in some extremely controlled conditions that cannot be replicated in a pot. 212F will not scorch grain above a false bottom.

Under the circumstances envisioned by the original poster, scorching the grain is not possible.
 
whovous said:
The use of a false bottom, properly installed, means the element is kept apart from the grain. It cannot scorch what it cannot touch.

Isn't this what the whole thread is about? The heating element was a bit "taller" than the legs on his false bottom, and he wants to devise a way to keep the element from touching the false bottom. At that point, the grain will be above the false bottom and the element will be below it, and it will not be in contact with same.

At full boil, the wort will hit 212F. Water does not get hotter than that, other than in some extremely controlled conditions that cannot be replicated in a pot. 212F will not scorch grain above a false bottom.

Under the circumstances envisioned by the original poster, scorching the grain is not possible.
Click to expand...

There is going to be water in there with the grains, he's not "roasting" the grains, he is steeping them in hot water to extract the wort. . Water + Grains = Wort. So, there is chance for scorching since there will be wort in contact with the element. The false bottom is there to also keep the grain bed intact during draining, exactly what a colander does when you drain water off from pasta.

Yes, boiling water cannot exceed it's boiling point but the sugars in the wort (water+sugars from the grains) can scorch (burn).
 
OK, I get it now. Thanks. Sugars can most definitely scorch.

The element in my system has never come close to scorching the wort, but it is also a recirculating system, which acts as an additional safeguard. I extrapolated my conditions to the world, and that was a mistake.

My bad.
 
With respect to the distance under the false bottom, I have 2-1/4" with a 1-1/2" TC port located just about in the middle. The element does not contact the false bottom of kettle. The photo looks like the distance to work with is considerably less? I imagine the element can be positioned without contact but the concern might be getting a near-flat surface for the fitting. I like the bolt idea...simple and adjustable.

With respect to the scorching discussion: I was also concerned with scorching due to low flow rates/velocities in MLT (vs classic RIMS tube) while mashing. To address this I have the element switchable between 240V (heating strike water) and 120V (while mashing). Have not had a scorching issue yet.
 
Scorching can also happen if you have a lot of particulate or protein matter in your wort, and insufficient recirculation. If your grind is very fine, or there's a lot of flour in your grind, which is not somehow filtered out by the grain bed (like BIAB sometimes can't do as well) then that can collect on the element and scorch. In this case it doesn't matter how far away from the FB the element is since the particulate matter is in the wort.
 
Rather than raising the entire FB, how about just letting it rest on the large nut securing the element? Or you could also consider making a very slight bent in the FB to clear the nut? It apperars to be only 1/8" interference.
 
wilserbrewer said:
Rather than raising the entire FB, how about just letting it rest on the large nut securing the element? Or you could also consider making a very slight bent in the FB to clear the nut? It apperars to be only 1/8" interference.
Click to expand...

When removing the false bottom, I want to make sure there is plenty of clearance not to accidentally hit the heating element. I'm sure it's tough but better safe than sorry. I will probably raise it about an inch. I'll probably use bolts or something....I still havnt officially decided

As for the wort scorching...thanks for the input all. I plan to recirculate the wort during mash. I will do the same until it starts to boil.
 
My suggestion would be to drill two holes in each leg (close to the opposite ends of the legs) and use a Stainless Hex bolt with two stainless nuts to hold it firm (the head of the Hexbolt would be the new footing) and you can raise the FB safely.
 
wilserbrewer said:
Rather than raising the entire FB, how about just letting it rest on the large nut securing the element? Or you could also consider making a very slight bent in the FB to clear the nut? It apperars to be only 1/8" interference.
Click to expand...

When removing the false bottom, I want to make sure there is plenty of clearance not to accidentally hit the heating element. I'm sure it's tough but better safe than sorry. I will probably raise it about an inch. I'll probably use bolts or something....I still havnt officially decided

As for the wort scorching...thanks for the input all. I plan to recirculate the wort during mash. I will do the same until it starts to boil.
 
How would you hit the element when removing the false bottom? You only need the FB to miss the element by about 1/8" and you're fine. I agree that a couple of bolts in the bottom of the legs would give you the extra height you need.
 
Now that I thought about it......

The easiest for me would buy bolts with a length equal to the net space between the bottom of the kettle and the false bottom. 5 should be fine. Drill out 5 of the holes in the false bottom. (4 in a square plus 1 in the center) the bolts through and secure with a nut. Get some washers and fender washers to spread out the stress. If you are going to measure and size the bolts to a gnat's ass, account for the thickness of the FB and washers.
 
one of the issues here is the high density element under the false bottom creates a dead area with very little agitation going on ... it will be very easy for fine grain proteins to "settle" onto the top of the element and cause scortching.. Just a theory, but one based on reading the experiences of others and also creating a similiar weakness in my first rims tube build which resulted in scorching and 15 gallons of dumped beer...

regular density or low watt density elements work best in situations where their is a lot of liquid movements around the element..

that looks like the same $13 element I use in my HLT...
(ok it went up in price)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/200909059093?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

I get a white mineral buildup on the element surface just from the minerals I add to the water on the element surface...
 
augiedoggy said:
one of the issues here is the high density element under the false bottom creates a dead area with very little agitation going on ... it will be very easy for fine grain proteins to "settle" onto the top of the element and cause scortching.. Just a theory, but one based on reading the experiences of others and also creating a similiar weakness in my first rims tube build which resulted in scorching and 15 gallons of dumped beer...
Click to expand...

Augiedoggy-You make a good point about fine grains settling onto the element in an area where there is insufficient fluid speed to flush them off. I've done three brews now with a similar setup as the OP is building and have seen what you are referring to. The good news is that the debris wipes right off suggesting that nothing is burning/scorching. BTW..I had a dog named Augie at one time!
 
dcbw said:
Scorching can also happen if you have a lot of particulate or protein matter in your wort, and insufficient recirculation. If your grind is very fine, or there's a lot of flour in your grind, which is not somehow filtered out by the grain bed (like BIAB sometimes can't do as well) then that can collect on the element and scorch. In this case it doesn't matter how far away from the FB the element is since the particulate matter is in the wort.
Click to expand...

To add to this: This is one of the reasons RIMS users need to be careful with their crush, only heat when recirculating, etc.

If you can, make sure to lock/couple the firing of the heating element with the running of the recirculation pump. In other words, make sure that the element can't be heating if the pump isn't on. Even better would be to not allow the heating element to come on if the wort isn't flowing (you need a flow switch for this) as there could be a ball valve closed somewhere even though the pump is on.

A false bottom doesn't really hold back as much grain as you may think, at least at first. It's a 'shelf' to grain to sit on and with recirculating systems there's a lot of 'junk' that flows through for the first 5, 10, or even 20 minutes before the wort start to run clearer. It's the grain itself that over time catches the various bits and pieces that are recirculated.

This is one of the compelling reasons why many brewers (myself included) use a HERMS setup instead of RIMS to heat the mash. You decouple the heating from the wort. But I digress...

Kal
 

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