Disappointed in Hop Flavor

[BeerForTim]

I brewed an IPA a month ago and cracked one open yesterday and I have to say I'm a bit disappointed in the hop flavor it has. I used the following hops at the following times.

1.25oz. Citra @ 60min.
.75oz. Simcoe @ 45min.
1.00oz. Sorachi Ace @ 15min.
1.00oz. Simcoe @ 1min.
4.00oz. Simcoe @ 7 Days.

Now, the flavor I get isn't a bad flavor, it's just really "flat." Doesn't really get to the back of your tongue like other IPAs do. I was hoping for a very grapefruit flavor at the end. Any suggestions?

 

[trigger]

you should move 2 oz of your dry hops to between 5 and 10 mins. 2 oz of late addition hops is barely enough for an APA, and dry hopping won't get you much of the tongue coating flavor.

 

[BeerForTim]

Right on, so adding another 2oz. of hops, 1oz. at 10min and 1oz. at 5min. would give me a good balance? Thanks for the response.

 

[bigbeergeek]

I say keep the 4 oz dry hops. 4 oz of dry hops is great for an IPA. You do need 2 ounces at 5 or 10 (or both) to get the flavor you're after. I'd also save that succulent citra for a flavor addition and bitter with simcoe (or something higher alpha like warrior etc). Good luck.

 

[BeerForTim]

Ok, so I'm planning on brewing this beer again tomorrow. Switched up the hop additions and I'm using 60L instead of 20L for the crystal malt (bought the 60L instead of 20L that was originally used at the supply store.)

10lb. Briess 2-Row
4lb. Pale Malt 2-Row UK
1lb. Caramel/Crystal Malt 60L

1.25oz. Simcoe @ 60 min.
1oz. Sorachi Ace @ 45 min.
1oz. Simcoe @ 15 min.
1oz. Citra @ 5 min.
2oz. Citra @ 1 min.
4oz Simcoe @ 7 days

 

[cdubbaya]

If you are looking for more flavor from the hops, I'd move the Simcoe from 15 to 20, and the Citra from 5 to 10, and 1 to 5. You'll get more flavor utilization from the hops are those times.

Typically bittering hops require about 60 minutes, so the Sorachi is getting a mix of flavor and bitterness. Think of a rule of thumb for hops as: 60 min bitter, 20 flavor, 5 for aroma. That's not a science, but it's a starting point to work from.

Since you are dry hopping Simcoe, there's really no reason for the late addition Citra unless you really want the Citra aroma too? Typically late addition (5 minutes or less) do the same as dry hopping. It's all for aroma.

 

[BeerForTim]

My mistake. I'm fairly new to this brewing thing. Earlier hop additions add to the flavor while later add to the aroma. I keep getting those two mixed up. I'm really looking for a pine/grapefruit flavor while keeping the wonderful Simcoe aroma the beer already has.

 

[Yooper]

My mistake. I'm fairly new to this brewing thing. Earlier hop additions add to the flavor while later add to the aroma. I keep getting those two mixed up. I'm really looking for a pine/grapefruit flavor while keeping the wonderful Simcoe aroma the beer already has.

If you want pine/grapefruit, you're using the wrong hops! Sorachi is lemony, while citra screams mango/tropical fruit.

Cascade and/or amarillo are more grapefruit. In fact, simcoe/amarillo together remind me of grapefruit juice!

A good grapefruit/pine IPA would be something like this:

1.5 ounces chinook 60 minutes
1 oz simcoe 15 minutes
1 oz amarillo 5 minutes
.5 oz simcoe flameout
.5 oz amarillo flameout

1 oz simcoe and amarillo dryhop

 

[mcnewcp]

I'd say your 45 minute addition is wasted if you're going for hop flavor. Anything added prior to 20 minutes is only going to increase bitterness. Additions in the 20min-5min range are the sweet spot for hop flavor. 5min-flameout and dry hopping are key for a good hop aroma.

I also agree that you should move the citra further down, adding it at 60 minutes is wasting that delicious citra flavor.

 

[cdubbaya]

Cascade and/or amarillo are more grapefruit. In fact, simcoe/amarillo together remind me of grapefruit juice!

Simcoe and Amarillo! That's the best combo out there for a citrusy/grapefruit flavor. I also use Warrior for bittering and it really brings out the grapefruit.

Here's the Double IPA we brewed awhile ago with Simcoe and Amarillo:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f69/happyloons-hophaven-honey-double-ipa-284740/

 

[BeerForTim]

I was pretty happy with my original recipe, only wanting to add a little more pine hop flavor. I don't want to change the recipe too much, afraid it won't be "my beer" anymore ya know? Although I'm intrigued with the idea of using amarillo and chinook.

Thanks for all the suggestions! I might mess around with some amarillo hops. I love the idea of beer tasting like grapefruit juice.

 

[bottlebomber]

Yeast can have a huge effect on the hopiness of beer as well. Try making an IPA using WLP029 German ale/Kolsch. Im not even joking, it works amazingly well. The yeast is a high sulfur producer, and something about the mineral-ey edge the yeast provides really makes the hops come home.

 

[BeerForTim]

I like the idea about changing the yeast. I was using WLP001. I might give the 029 a try.

Also, we used a hop sack to dry hop and it was a pain in the ass to get the thing out after 4oz of hops absorbed all that water after sitting in there for two weeks. Am I gaining that much more aroma from dry hopping that apposed to loading up on hops at 1min to flame out?

 

[bottlebomber]

Am I gaining that much more aroma from dry hopping that apposed to loading up on hops at 1min to flame out?

Lately I've been leaning more toward not adding any aroma additions and getting my aroma from dry hopping. My rational is that a huge amount of aroma gasses off during primary, so why not wait until that part of fermentation is over before introducing your aroma? Also, are you dry hopping in a carboy? I did that a few times, and then, as a twist of fate, I ended up with some buckets. I will never dry hop in a carboy again. Now I just put my hops in a sanitized 1 gallon paint strainer bag (cheap!), tie it shut, and drop it in. When I want to bottle I just pop the lid, and with sanitized hands I pull out and squeeze the bag. This is totally safe, you don't lose much beer, and I'm convinced that those squeezing are the finest of hop goodness.

 

[BeerForTim]

Yeah, we dry hopped in a carboy. A bucket would be 100x better.

Here's the revised recipe. I really love my original so instead of trying to improve it I decided I want to just make another IPA to go along in a series I hope to create.

WLP029 German Ale/Kolsch
10lb. Briess 2-Row Brewers Malt
4lb. Pale Malt 2-Row UK
1lb. Crystal Malt 60L

1.5oz. Warrior @ 60min.
2oz. Amarillo @ 20min.
2oz. Simcoe @ 15min.
.5oz Citra @ 1min.
4oz. Simcoe @ 7 Days

I wanted to throw in a half an ounce of Citra in there to keep some of the orange fruity aroma and I love the aroma that 4oz. of Simcoe gave me. More worried about flavor this time so I switched up for Amarillo and Simcoe.

Simcoe and Amarillo! That's the best combo out there for a citrusy/grapefruit flavor. I also use Warrior for bittering and it really brings out the grapefruit.

Here's the Double IPA we brewed awhile ago with Simcoe and Amarillo:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f69/happyloons-hophaven-honey-double-ipa-284740/

Favorited your recipe on Hopville. Sounds pretty delicious, want to try brewing it sometime.

 

[PeterBrews]

I would also recommend making multiple dry hop additions. A rep for Bell's made a vague comment about Two-Hearted having a specific multiple addition dry hop schedule to get what they wanted out of Centennial. I recently experimented with 1oz for 7 days, 1/2oz for 3 days, and 1/2oz for 1 day. It was definitely a better fresh hop aroma than a previous beer that I had dry hopped with a single 7 day addition. More control is needed to verify this. Darn, I guess I'll just have to keep brewing forever.

Cheers

Peter

 

[Sleepyemt]

The only thing I'd look at is the possibility of using a little gypsum? (along with the other suggestions) It helps my hopping "pop" because the water here is so soft.... Ask others in your area what the water is like....

 

[Steelers77]

If your going to use the WLP029 German Ale/Kolsch keep the temps down. If it gets hot it can get fruity. I ferment my summer ale with that at 60, very clean profile and the Sorachi Ace come through great! Fermentation may also take longer than you expect with that yeast.

 

[BeerForTim]

If your going to use the WLP029 German Ale/Kolsch keep the temps down. If it gets hot it can get fruity. I ferment my summer ale with that at 60, very clean profile and the Sorachi Ace come through great! Fermentation may also take longer than you expect with that yeast.

It's pretty cold in the house, haha. My roommates don't like to turn the heat on very much. I'll take a quick temp though, hopefully it turns out well.

I would also recommend making multiple dry hop additions. A rep for Bell's made a vague comment about Two-Hearted having a specific multiple addition dry hop schedule to get what they wanted out of Centennial. I recently experimented with 1oz for 7 days, 1/2oz for 3 days, and 1/2oz for 1 day. It was definitely a better fresh hop aroma than a previous beer that I had dry hopped with a single 7 day addition. More control is needed to verify this. Darn, I guess I'll just have to keep brewing forever.

Cheers

Peter

Is that just like adding hops to the boil, where 7 days is the "60 Minute" mark and the 1 day is the "1 Minute" mark?

 

[AlteredEgo]

Adding some Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) to your water might wake up your hops.

 

[BeerForTim]

Adding some Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) to your water might wake up your hops.

When would you add the gypsum? I would think after all your hop additions?

 

[jonmohno]

You add gypsum to your mash or boil.I add some along with cl2 to my r/0 and sometimes my spring water if the ph is a little high.