Diluted chlorine + vinegar = safe no-rinse sanitizer?

[boydster]

This came up earlier, and apparently has been discussed on a Basic Brewing podcast, but it goes against what I thought about these two chemicals.

Is it safe and effective to use a solution of 5 gallons of water, 1 tablespoon bleach, and 1 tablespoon of vinegar as a no-rinse sanitizer? Does this somehow not produce some chlorine gas? Is it more effective than using bleach at the usual 1 tablespoon per gallon of water ratio? Is it more effective than StarSan at the proper dilution?

 

[glenn514]

I've been using a diluted solution of bleach and vinegar as a spray-on sanitizer for quite some time. Now, I'm subscribed to this thread to find out if it actually works!

glenn514

 

[mabrungard]

I have to admit that I'm unfamiliar with using this combination of chemicals as a no-rinse sanitizer. However, I am familiar with using a combination of hydrogen peroxide and vinegar to create peracetic acid which is an effective sanitizer.

 

[ajdelange]

When chlorine is dissolved in water

H2O + Cl2 <--> CLO- + 2H+ + Cl-

The reaction is reversible. If hydrogen ions are supplied to a mix of sodium hypochlorite and salt (IOW bleach) the reaction will reverse and chlorine gas will be released. This is why bleach bottles often have warnings on them that the bleach should not be mixed with other household chemicals*. It is also why bleach is made by dissolving chlorine in a lye solution. High pH means no H+ ions. Hypochlorous acid is actually a much better disinfectant than hypochlorite ion but pH is kept at around 9.5 in order to insure that nearly all the hypochlorite is in the form of the ion. Hypochlorous acid maxes out at about pH 5.5 and this is, theoretically, where we would want to use bleach (when I shock my well I adjust pH to about that level before pouring in the bleach) but if you go lower than that chlorine gas will be realeased (half the hypochlorous acid is converted to chlorine at pH 3.33 so you need to be pretty careful that you don't overshoot your goal of 5.5 if using acid for better sanitizing. If all this is not crystal clear to you and if you do not have pH meter I recommend that you do NOT mix vinegar, nor any other acid with bleach.

*The other no-no is ammonia. Mixing this with bleach releases chloramine gas. I had a tenant that did that and while I never got all the details as I was out of town at the time apparently they had the fire departments of 10 communities on the scene (slight exaggeration there). I guess I would have told her to take two Campden tablets and call me in the morning. That's a joke. Don't eat Campden tablets even if poisoned by chloramine.

 

[Yooper]

I guess I would have told her to take two Campden tablets and call me in the morning.
That's a joke. Don't eat Campden tablets even if poisoned by chloramine.

I did the literal "LOL" at that. Thanks for the laugh this morning!

I never listened to the podcast about vinegar and bleach, but I did read that Charlie Talley (inventor of star-san) was the one talking about using bleach as a no-rinse sanitizer, with vinegar. I assume that is the one you are referring to?

 

[boydster]

Another member posted these links, one of them being Basic Brewing:

http://www.brewplus.com/forum/threads/report-on-sanitizing-using-a-bleach-and-vinegar-solution.3617/
http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbr03-29-07.mp3

Thanks for your input, everyone. AJ, I appreciate the detail.

 

[ArcaneXor]

Don't eat Campden tablets even if poisoned by chloramine.

Seriously - it put the tip of my tongue to a campden tablet once, thinking it was a carb tab. They taste like death.