Dilute, Acidify, or Both - Brewing Tomorrow (5/6)

[cpapallo]

Hi All - been trolling for a long time (years) and haven't really posted very much. I've had a water report for a few months now and started using Brun' Water (love the program so much that I just bumped up to v3.4). I have been spending a lot of time on my current conundrum of how best to treat my mash (and to a lesser extent, sparge) water.

That being said, I'm trying to determine if I should be acidifying my mash or simply diluting it (or a combination of both). My gut tells me the less "additives" you contribute to your water, the better (i.e. if I can get mash in-line without acid, that is a better approach). I'd like some insights on how others would approach my water (to see if I'm way off base or if I'm getting close).

(I'll add my comments on what I've tried at the end).

pH: 8.1
Cation/Anion: 5.1/5.8
Na: 7
K: 3
Ca: 56
Mg: 23
Total hardness, CaCO3: 236
Nitrate (NO3-N): 1.8
Sulfate (SO4-S): 6
Cl: 78
Carbonate (CO3): <1
Bicarbonate (HCO3): 189
Total Alkalinity (CaCO3): 157

Grain bill:
24 lbs 2-Row
2 lbs Crystal 10
2 lbs White wheat
2 lbs Flaked oats
6 oz acidulated malt

Mash 9.4 gallons at 150
Sparge 8.3 gallons at 168

Out of the box, without additions to the mash, I'd be looking at a pH of around 5.8. If I dilute with 40% distilled water and add 14g of gypsum, I can bring the pH down to ~5.4. Consequently, I could also simply add 7.0mL of 88% lactic acid to my mash water and achieve the same pH (no other additions). I've tried the later a few times and the beer has been "ok" but not what I had been hoping for (and not in line with results I was getting when using bottled water). A few batches have left an odd after taste, which I'm guessing may have been as a result of the acid, but unsure.

I suppose I'm looking for advice as to whether option one (i.e. dilute and add gypsum) would yield a better tasting brew (pale ale) than option 2 (i.e. simply adding acid to the mash). I tried option two last weekend, but obviously haven't had a chance to try the finished product yet. I'm planning to brew again tomorrow and will likely dilute again, but would be interested in others opinions.

Same type of question goes for sparge water - I could add 7.3mL of lactic acid to my sparge water to bring it's pH down or I could do a combination of diluting and treating with acid. Not sure if one way is better than the other.

Thanks in advance to those who respond!

 

[thereverendmaynard]

I am in the process of reading "water" and have been pondering the same questions. I have not done a water analysis but this is on deck. I think I am with you on the less is more (acid) approach.

I have found that for my 11 gallon batches into fermentor (14 ish pre boil) I am using 3-4ml 88% lactic in the mashtun (to get me in the 5.4 range at 150 - which would be around 5.6 at room temp). I also add around 3ml in my hlt to treat ~ 12 gallons of sparge water to get me a ph of 5.2 at 150 (~5.4 at room temp).

In the water book, they called out the dilution and mineral addition as a preferred way to go vs acid. (not that acid was bad - but I am not certain as to the point at which you begin to taste it)

 

[cpapallo]

I see you are in CT - which part? That is where I live as well. Sounds like we are on the same hunch (hoping to get some clarity).

 

[PGEduardo]

I have gone the acid malt/lactic acid route, but I think I might be tasting the sourness as you worry. Not sure if this is mental, but at any rate I purchased a huge jug of phosphoric acid to use: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KC74ETO/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Reading through past issues, I think phosphoric might be preferred due to less taste, unless you are aiming for the sour lactic taste (same as acid malt). Others in the past have suggested using both phosphoric and lactic acid in order to avoid too much of any one additive.

Good luck! I think I'll experiment this weekend with just phosphoric acid...

 

[ajdelange]

You have got a water there with 3.14 mEq/L alkalinity. You are going to need about 90% of that in acid (2.7 mEq/L) just to handle the water's alkalinity. Add to that the additional 1.9 mEq/L (given typical grain to water ratio) you need to neutralize the grain to pH 5.4 and you have a total of 4.8 mEq of lactic acid or about 20 mL for the whole mash. This assumes no sauermalz. If you wanted to do it all with sauermalz (no lactic acid) it would require 4.9% saurmalz. This is all without any additions to your water which is not problematical (except for the report and I'll get to that).

4.9% as sauermalz suggests that there might be some lactate flavor sneaking in. Clearly it would be nice if you could get the sauermalz requirement down some and the obvious way to do that is reduce the alkalinity of the water. A 2.14:1 dilution would get it down to the generally acceptable 1 mEq/L (the alkalinity a brewery generally achieved if it decarbonated its water by lime treatment). Assuming you were to do that the requirement would drop to 4%. Add enough gypsum to get the calcium up to 50 mg/L and that sauermalz requirement goes down to 3.7% which is certainly tolerable. We could, of course, spend the rest of the day trying even higher dilutions and/or more calcium but I think the point is that you want to get rid of the liquor's alkalinity with RO water, not acid.

Now I mentioned your water report earlier. It is imbalanced by 0.7 mEq/L. That is equivalent to 35 ppm as CaCO3 alkalinity, 16 mg/L sodium, 14 mg/L calcium, 8.4 mg/L magnesium, 33 mg/L sulfate etc. I would contact Ward Labs and point this out. They will give you some BS about how a report doesn't need to balance exactly and that the imbalance might be caused by the fact that they don't measure everything. At that point ask them which ion is it that they don't measure that is present to the extent of 0.7 mEq/L. If you don't let them play on your unfamiliarity with chemistry they should re-do your test. Gratis.

 

[cpapallo]

AJ - first, thank you so much. I was hoping (fingers crossed) someone like you would chime in...

Sounds like you have seen this before (re: the imbalance in my water report). This was actually the first thing I noticed when plugging the reported values into Martin's brewing software. But being slightly novice in water chemistry, I wasn't sure exactly how to handle that (I know there was a disclaimer somewhere indicating anything over a .5 difference in the cation/anion ratio would draw the water report into question).

How is it, that a report gets unbalanced (I.e. Why would they send it to someone)? Would this indicate there may have been QC issues at the lab or is it something else? Have you seen this a lot from them ?

I'll email them Monday (does this essentially mean I'll still be adjusting blindly tomorrow) ? If so, maybe I will forgo brew day all together.

Does the unbalanced water report throw the rest of what I'm trying to do into limbo ?

Is this something I can read more about or is it just a phenomena that happens at the lab sometimes (.05 percent of the time)?

Thank you so much for all you post and do. Appreciate it!

 

[ajdelange]

...anything over a .5 difference in the cation/anion ratio would draw the water report into question).

I suppose that's subject to interpretation but I'd probably be stricter than 0.5.

How is it, that a report gets unbalanced...

That's an easy question. They make an error in measurement. Not measuring something that is actually also present adds to the imbalance as well.

(I.e. Why would they send it to someone)?

That is a more difficult question! I'm afraid the answer is "Because they can get away with it."

Would this indicate there may have been QC issues at the lab or is it something else?

Yes, the balance is a QC check. When I first started seeing Ward Labs reports I was so impressed that they were putting QC data on them. But then I noticed that the QC data sometimes wasn't that good.

Have you seen this a lot from them ?

No, not that often and I think that's really the point here. Most of the time the balance seems to be 0.3 or less. 0.7 is pretty high both in absolute terms and in terms of what they are demonstrably capable of. That's why I flagged it.

I'll email them Monday (does this essentially mean I'll still be adjusting blindly tomorrow) ? If so, maybe I will forgo brew day all together.

Not totally. If you dilute with RO the imbalance and potential error dilute too. If you use 100% RO then it goes away.

Is this something I can read more about or is it just a phenomena that happens at the lab sometimes (.05 percent of the time)?

It does happen sometimes and the solution is to check freshness of reagents, calibration of AAS and/or ICP machines etc and rerun the tests. Yes, you can read about it in DeClerck as I recall and probably in Standard Methods though I don't specifically remember seeing it there.

 

[cpapallo]

Thanks for helping me understand how the imbalance happened. Hadn't heard much about it in the past, but will reach out and ask for a retest. It's funny...I googled unbalanced water report, and a thread with you and another person from Connecticut came up from about 2-3 years ago...

I'll post the outcome of my communication (at some point in the next week, so if others run into this problem, they can have an idea of what to expect from Ward.

 

[cpapallo]

AJ - I took your advice and emailed Ward Labs yesterday. I heard back from Nick Ward within an hour of sending the email and they told me they thought that the sample was within their parameters of balance, but if I wanted them to, they'd offer to reanalyze my sample. Always good to advocate for yourself! Just as a follow up, I'll post the new results here when I get them (to see how far things may have been off on the first test).

 

[cpapallo]

Just received the new water report from Ward Labs. Things are balanced this time around...they were actually incredibly responsive and I didn't even need to send a new sample. New water profile looks like this:

pH: 8.1
Cations/Anions me/L: 5.4/5.6
Na: 7
K: 3
Ca: 62
Mg: 23
Total Hardness, CaCO3: 251
Nitrate (NO3-N): 1.8
Sulfate (SO4-S): 6
Cl: 78
Carbonate (CO3): <1.0
Bicarbonate, (HCO3): 176
Total Alkalinity (CaCO3): 146
P: .02
Fe: .03

At least I'll have a better idea on how to adjust this time around!

 

[thereverendmaynard]

I just shipped off my water sample to them - so I should have an idea of my additions too. How long from ship to results?

 

[thereverendmaynard]

Just got my results.

pH 7.6
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 104
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.17
Cations / Anions, me/L 1.7 / 1.6

Sodium, Na 6
Potassium, K 3
Calcium, Ca 18
Magnesium, Mg 6
Total Hardness, CaCO3 70
Nitrate, NO3-N 2.5 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 4
Chloride, Cl 14
Carbonate, CO3 < 1.0
Bicarbonate, HCO3 45
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 37
Total Phosphorus, P 0.02
Total Iron, Fe 0.01


Looks like I need some Ca additions. Starting to play with Brew'n water

My ion Balance was 1.73 cations, 1.56 anions - .16 difference