Difficulty getting invert hot enough stovetop or oven - at 350F?

[Gadjobrinus]

Hmm. Perplexed, because I don't recall this issue with the oven previously. I don't have a pressure cooker (huge mistake among my total brewing-gear sell off years ago - getting rid of the 21 qt All-American), and have an issue getting the invert hot enough stovetop. I seem to make out in the low 220's. In the oven, weirdly, it's very difficult to achieve it either. I recall it being sluggish before but not this - it seems that no matter how hot I'm making the oven, it's not getting much past 222F. Am I missing something? Lid's on, fwiw.

 

[ba-brewer]

Where you able to get it up to 240F on the stove stop?

Maybe your thermometer is off and it is really 212F because there is still water left in the sugar.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Where you able to get it up to 240F on the stove stop?

Maybe your thermometer is off and it is really 212F because there is still water left in the sugar.

The thermo is pretty good, as I've double calibrated it. Maybe I'm just forgetting - so long as there's water, it can't climb past 212, right? The water sort of acts like a "pressure relief" valve and will evaporate first at 212, before any temp can climb?

 

[Gadjobrinus]

While here, presuming I get a pressure canner and get it to 15 psi/250F, I imagine the cooking period is much shorter than the prescribed time in Jeff Alworth's instructions (here, I want to make No. 4 for an RIS I'm putting together - i.e., 4-5 hours after reaching 240, according to his method).

 

[ba-brewer]

You are correct on the water holding the temp down until it evaporates, once it is gone the temp should rise.

I believe the times stay the same because they are both done at the same temp. 15psi just shifts the boiling point of the water.

You need to check every so often to make sure you still have water in the pressure cooker or come up with a way to fill it with more water to start. Having some preboiled water handy speed up the process.

I do 1/2pint jars of invert on the top of quarts or pints of wort being canned for starters. If I want to go past invert#1 I leave it in for more cycles while I am canning wort.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

You are correct on the water holding the temp down until it evaporates, once it is gone the temp should rise.

I believe the times stay the same because they are both done at the same temp. 15psi just shifts the boiling point of the water.

You need to check every so often to make sure you still have water in the pressure cooker or come up with a way to fill it with more water to start. Having some preboiled water handy speed up the process.

I do 1/2pint jars of invert on the top of quarts or pints of wort being canned for starters. If I want to go past invert#1 I leave it in for more cycles while I am canning wort.

Awesome, thanks. Sort of a d'uh on my end. Climbed quite rapidly to 240F once the water boiled off, and fingers crossed, in the 240-250F oven. On the pressure canner water, yeah, I'd just thought to fill it up much higher then wait for pure steam as always. I like your idea of canning wort at the same time and just going through cycles.

Thanks much!

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I guess while here I'll raise another question, on the use of simple raw cane sugar v. turbinado, demerara, even Muscovado.

I followed the Aylworth instructions literally, and simply used raw cane sugar. I've seen so many people use others, esp. demerara it seems. I understand from another member (@huckdavidson , I think?) that we're not dealing with caramelization? So how is such a dark invert achieved over time with such a light starting product? Or perhaps I've missed further amendments, to start with darker raw sugar to begin with?

 

[huckdavidson]

I guess while here I'll raise another question, on the use of simple raw cane sugar v. turbinado, demerara, even Muscovado.

I followed the Aylworth instructions literally, and simply used raw cane sugar. I've seen so many people use others, esp. demerara it seems. I understand from another member (@huckdavidson , I think?) that we're not dealing with caramelization? So how is such a dark invert achieved over time with such a light starting product? Or perhaps I've missed further amendments, to start with darker raw sugar to begin with?

Maillard Reactions

The Maillard reaction between reducing sugars and compounds containing amino groups leads to the fast development of a yellow color, which turns dark brown during prolonged heating.

The caramelization stage occurs at a higher temperature 320F - 360F than when simmering an invert sugar for a long period ~@240F.

Try this, make a light colored invert syrup and add a small portion of date sugar after inversion... good stuff.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Maillard Reactions

The Maillard reaction between reducing sugars and compounds containing amino groups leads to the fast development of a yellow color, which turns dark brown during prolonged heating.

The caramelization stage occurs at a higher temperature 320F - 360F than when simmering an invert sugar for a long period ~@240F.

Try this, make a light colored invert syrup and add a small portion of date sugar after inversion... good stuff.

OK great, thanks. Wasn't even aware of the apparent plethora of amino acids in cane sugar, until your piquing my interest just now.

Your date sugar sounds really nice. Do you proceed as per normal, then - i.e., after conversion, continue to cook for 2-4 hours per the Aylworth method?

 

[huckdavidson]

OK great, thanks. Wasn't even aware of the apparent plethora of amino acids in cane sugar, until your piquing my interest just now.

Your date sugar sounds really nice. Do you proceed as per normal, then - i.e., after conversion, continue to cook for 2-4 hours per the Aylworth method?

I've never continued to cook more than 5 - 10 minutes after adding a darker sugar but it may be worth a try. I'll generally start with a more flavorful sugar (sucanat, etc...) to acheive a darker end product.

@cire has some good instructions here.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I've never continued to cook more than 5 - 10 minutes after adding a darker sugar but it may be worth a try. I'll generally start with a more flavorful sugar (sucanat, etc...) to acheive a darker end product.

Ah, OK, gotcha. So do I understand you correctly, you'll play with a simple inverted sugar (how do we know when we've gotten complete inversion, btw?), then use some of these darker sugars as a layering component. But if wanting to do a darker invert - say, 3-4 - you won't start with plain raw cane sugar, but something like demerara, muscovado or your sucanat?

Edit: Is sucanat generally the stuff I can find as panela in hispanic grocery stores?

 

[huckdavidson]

Ah, OK, gotcha. So do I understand you correctly, you'll play with a simple inverted sugar (how do we know when we've gotten complete inversion, btw?), then use some of these darker sugars as a layering component. But if wanting to do a darker invert - say, 3-4 - you won't start with plain raw cane sugar, but something like demerara, muscovado or your sucanat?

Edit: Is sucanat generally the stuff I can find as panela in hispanic grocery stores?

Nothing wrong with starting with raw cane sugar and waiting for #3 but yes, I'll start with the darker sugars because of the higher molasses contents.

Sucanat is a registered trademark of Ragus (Sugar) Holdings, Inc. Sucanat stands for SUgar CAne NATural (SU CA NAT) and is made by crushing the sugar cane, extracting the juice then heating it.

Sucanat

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Nothing wrong with starting with raw cane sugar and waiting for #3 but yes, I'll start with the darker sugars because of the higher molasses contents.

Sucanat is a registered trademark of Ragus (Sugar) Holdings, Inc. Sucanat stands for SUgar CAne NATural (SU CA NAT) and is made by crushing the sugar cane, extracting the juice then heating it.

Sucanat

Great, thanks. In reading a bit it appears Piloncillo (Mexico), Panela (Columbia), Muscovado (Mauritius) and Jaggery (India) are equivalents?

 

[huckdavidson]

how do we know when we've gotten complete inversion, btw?

I'm not sure how you would do this at home.

The polarization of light passing through the solution is inverted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_sugar_syrup
https://www.ragus.co.uk/product/invert-sugar-syrup/

It is at this point that more sucrose is added when producing partial inverts. After this has dissolved, the brix (the density of sucrose in a solution) will be a maximum of 77% and the polarisation +17 to +23. For full inverts, the brix is 76% with a polarisation of -18 to -22

Great, thanks. In reading a bit it appears Piloncillo (Mexico), Panela (Columbia), Muscovado (Mauritius) and Jaggery (India) are equivalents?

It's definitely in the less or unrefined category along with those you've listed.

Sugar is big business which brings political influence, wealth, etc.... Read the story of the Fanjul Brothers.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I'm not sure how you would do this at home.

The polarization of light passing through the solution is inverted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_sugar_syrup
https://www.ragus.co.uk/product/invert-sugar-syrup/




It's definitely in the less or unrefined category along with those you've listed.

Sugar is big business which brings political influence, wealth, etc.... Read the story of the Fanjul Brothers.

Awesome. Thanks. And I will read the Fanjul story.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Just pulled it at 4.5 hours. Couldn't be happier. Looks great and tastes fantastic - intense, deep, rich dark fruit, raisins and plums on first pass. Really looking forward to using this.