Differences between panels?

[Lax coach]

I'm currently debating whether to keep my Picobrew Z2 order--they originally promised to start deliveries in July, but it's now looking like sometime next year at best--or go a more traditional route with electric.

In the 30A two element but one-at-a-time category, the options are all over the map, and I'm having a difficult time determining what you do and do not get for your money. Here's what I've looked at:

The Electric Brewery: $1,400 for the kit, plus $900 for pre-assembly
Ebrewsupply: $1,100 for the kit, plus $350 for pre-assembly
Grounded Brewtech: $1,100 fully assembled, no kit
High Gravity: $800

The High Gravity obviously has less control than the other three, but other than that I'm having a difficult time telling them apart, or why the prices vary so widely. Particularly why Kal charges 3x what Ryan does to assemble their respective panels.

I'm a definite newbie here, so looking for feedback from some of the more experienced e-brewers here. Thanks in advance!

 

[Bobby_M]

A multi vessel system is quite the departure from a pico. Why not a single vessel system with one 5500w element and use the auber cube?

 

[Lax coach]

A multi vessel system is quite the departure from a pico. Why not a single vessel system with one 5500w element and use the auber cube?

Yeah, I'm still waffling, which is only made worse because I'm an over-analyzer So I'm looking into panels and 2/3 vessel brewing (hence this thread), but am also considering single-vessel, looking primarily at the Brew Boss system. I hadn't heard of the Auber cube until now, will definitely add that to the list.

Clear advantage of going that route would be that I'd likely start with a vessel that would still be a good choice for a 2/3 vessel system, and I'd just have to swap out the controller later if/when I wanted to expand. Losing ~$200 on resale that way would definitely be preferable to starting over.

 

[Bobby_M]

Yeah, I'm still waffling, which is only made worse because I'm an over-analyzer So I'm looking into panels and 2/3 vessel brewing (hence this thread), but am also considering single-vessel, looking primarily at the Brew Boss system. I hadn't heard of the Auber cube until now, will definitely add that to the list.

Clear advantage of going that route would be that I'd likely start with a vessel that would still be a good choice for a 2/3 vessel system, and I'd just have to swap out the controller later if/when I wanted to expand. Losing ~$200 on resale that way would definitely be preferable to starting over.

You can use a single vessel controller for 3 vessel just by swapping plugs but frankly I dont understand the draw to 2/3 vessels even in the long term. Extra hour for a few extra efficiency points.

 

[augiedoggy]

Different people get different enjoyment from this hobby, For some the process of brewing and the system it self is fun.. Some like building and constantly changing the brewing system more than they do the beer. Its the same argument as brewing to save money vs just buying the beer really..

 

[Bobby_M]

Different people get different enjoyment from this hobby, For some the process of brewing and the system it self is fun.. Some like building and constantly changing the brewing system more than they do the beer. Its the same argument as brewing to save money vs just buying the beer really..

I completely agree. System building is fun for a lot of people. I, of all people, understand that part of it. However, If the system is just a means to an end, it can be acheived in easier ways. Three vessels looks impressive and professional and then sometimes it results in buyer's remorse because its more time and cleaning for no benefit. I highly recommend coming up with a clear motive first.

 

[golfindia]

If I had a come up with a clear motive for half the crap I have..... I'd be in serious trouble. LOL.

 

[kyt]

I have a Grounded custom built panel. I can say, without any doubt, that it is fantastic, and I like it far more than I could have liked any of the other panels.

 

[wyowolf]

I have a Grounded custom built panel. I can say, without any doubt, that it is fantastic, and I like it far more than I could have liked any of the other panels.

View attachment 591894

pretty slick!

 

[augiedoggy]

I have a Grounded custom built panel. I can say, without any doubt, that it is fantastic, and I like it far more than I could have liked any of the other panels.

View attachment 591894

I remember when I felt that way about my first panel..

 

[NewJersey]

A multi vessel system is quite the departure from a pico. Why not a single vessel system with one 5500w element and use the auber cube?

i just looked at that cube and it looks pretty nice. i wish it also could control the intensity of the element. (to be able to determine how hard of a boil you want and to aid in not overshooting during mash)

 

[Bobby_M]

i just looked at that cube and it looks pretty nice. i wish it also could control the intensity of the element. (to be able to determine how hard of a boil you want and to aid in not overshooting during mash)

It does do that.

 

[NewJersey]

It does do that.

am i missing it?
i thought that the ezboil let you set a temp and it would just turn the element on and off to mainatain whatever number ypu put it. when boiling i thought that it just had the element go 100% full blast

edit- nevermind, i just read the user manual and it definitley does do that.

i guess it can control 240v, but that depends on the box it's wired into???

 

[sillbeer]

You can set the percentage of power that goes to the element from the ez boil. It also has the mash function that you are talking about. I have two of them on my panel and I like them. Really easy to use.

Edit: I bought the brew buddy kit from Auberins and enjoyed building it. In hind sight, I would have rather forked out the cash to have a turn key unit.

 

[Lax coach]

Any more comparisons between panels? Or are they all basically the same, only differing in price?

 

[nebulous]

I highly recommend coming up with a clear motive first.

This.

I did BIAB for a number of years and it took me a long time to come up with what would work best for me. In the end I built a 2 vessel RIMS due to space and only really having 30a at my disposal but i have access to heated filtered water. I wanted a lot of flexibility in my system and so far it has given me that. I'm starting to get into lagers; and because of some of my choices on my build I can now start trying out some LoDO techniques without changing anything.
The right brew system for you is not the best for everyone really think about where you want to take your beer.

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

I'll chime in and say I like the 2 vessel system (or 3, but I gave up the HLT a while ago...) because it gives me more control over different process variables. I've found my fermentability can be controlled not only through mash temperature but also how thin/thick my mash is. Gives me more options to brew lots of different things and experiment.

In the end, it all comes down to what you want to do with your system. I think the panels all offer a little different brewing experience, so it does pay to really understand what you want before you drop all the cash on one. Look at the user interfaces and see which one would match your brew style the best. Or build your own to exactly match what you want!

 

[Lax coach]

Therin lies the rub. I don't yet know what my brew style will be. Thus far my experience has been 40 batches on the little PicoBrew, which is more or less "push button, receive wort". My satisfaction with it is what led me to preorder the Z earlier this year. But they keep missing date after date, and in the meantime I've taken both the basic (extract) and advanced (all-grain) brewing classes at my LHBS, which has led me to expanding my options. Those classes are done on a three-tier direct fire system, which I know I don't want. I definitely want electric, and at least some automation.

What I'm trying to get to is "If I go eBIAB, here's the way I'll go and why", and the same thing for 2- or 3-vessel, then decide what of those categories I expect will work best for me. Admittedly I won't know whether I'm right until after the fact. But like I said up top, I'm an over-analyzer, so this kind of has to be the process.

 

[sillbeer]

I started off doing extract kits in a pony keg and quickly picked up two Rubbermaid coolers as MLT and HLT and fly sparged. I picked up a Concord 18 gallon kettle and shifted into brew in a bag and went electric. I picked up a false bottom from SoCal Brewing (JayBird) and bought a controller from High Gravity. I used BIAB for awhile and wanted to expand. I used the controller for my new setup and just unplugged my HLT and plugged in the BK. Not a huge deal but I wanted a panel that I didn't have to keep unplugging things and that led me to where I am at now, 3 vessels with a panel I built from a kit offered by Auberins. I'm happy with where I'm at now and don't foresee myself changing much in the future. Maybe putting a motor on my mill but that's not really necessary now.

BIAB was something I wanted to try and it made good beer. It was simple but I wanted to be more involved.

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

Therin lies the rub. I don't yet know what my brew style will be. Thus far my experience has been 40 batches on the little PicoBrew, which is more or less "push button, receive wort". My satisfaction with it is what led me to preorder the Z earlier this year. But they keep missing date after date, and in the meantime I've taken both the basic (extract) and advanced (all-grain) brewing classes at my LHBS, which has led me to expanding my options. Those classes are done on a three-tier direct fire system, which I know I don't want. I definitely want electric, and at least some automation.

What I'm trying to get to is "If I go eBIAB, here's the way I'll go and why", and the same thing for 2- or 3-vessel, then decide what of those categories I expect will work best for me. Admittedly I won't know whether I'm right until after the fact. But like I said up top, I'm an over-analyzer, so this kind of has to be the process.

Since you are undecided, I would recommend going with a system that is flexible and will allow relatively easy changes if you change your brewing style down the road. You don't want to spend a lot of money and time on a panel that will have to be completely gutted if you change your mind later.

For me, I like the building and designing side of this hobby, so I'm constantly tweaking my setup. I currently have a BCS-460 as my main controller, but I found out very quickly that it didn't have enough I/O for my wants/needs. That's a $200 component that I now have to replace. The replacement BCS-482 has a lot more I/O but is another $279...so I'm now in the process of converting over to an Ardunio based controller using BruControl as my main interface. I recommend you take a look at this thread: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/brucontrol-brewery-control-automation-software.624198/

@BrunDog is very active on these forums, and has developed a great product. Very flexible and allows for easy changes as you add/modify your rig. Cost can be as large as you want, really. Start out with BIAB and add to it over time.

 

[augiedoggy]

I started off doing extract kits in a pony keg and quickly picked up two Rubbermaid coolers as MLT and HLT and fly sparged. I picked up a Concord 18 gallon kettle and shifted into brew in a bag and went electric. I picked up a false bottom from SoCal Brewing (JayBird) and bought a controller from High Gravity. I used BIAB for awhile and wanted to expand. I used the controller for my new setup and just unplugged my HLT and plugged in the BK. Not a huge deal but I wanted a panel that I didn't have to keep unplugging things and that led me to where I am at now, 3 vessels with a panel I built from a kit offered by Auberins. I'm happy with where I'm at now and don't foresee myself changing much in the future. Maybe putting a motor on my mill but that's not really necessary now.

BIAB was something I wanted to try and it made good beer. It was simple but I wanted to be more involved.

I agree.. its just the way I see and everyone sees it differently but to me, if you want something else to do all the brewing for you why not just take it one step further at that point and pick up a 12 pack of craft beer for the local beer store.. you certainly wont save money homebrewing in 80% of the situations I see. especially if your not even getting enjoyment out of designing and building the automated system to make said beer... Were is the hobby? coming up with recipes I guess but still, a chef doesnt just pour all the raw ingredients into a machine and walk away.. and if one does that with beer is it still classified as "craft beer" Maybe I'm just being foolish and nastalgic here.. im all for equipment that makes mundane tasks easier and more consistent (for me its a whole different hobby though building it). I just am not to the point where some are I guess.
I guess its the same argument for some artisan coffee lovers with a french press vs a mrcoffee..

 

[cegan09]

Another vote for take some time to decide what aspects are most important to you.

Right now you have a system that takes very little management and is relatively easy to clean. Are those drivers for you? Do you have a large space to dedicate to brewing, or more limited space. Will you need to setup your brew system each time, or can it have a dedicated home? Do you like cleaning, or prefer to keep that minimal? Are you interested in maximum efficiency or just enjoy brewing? Your priorities will help point in various directions.

 

[Lax coach]

Yes, flexibility is definitely one of the things I'm looking for. I lust after something like the Spike System, but can't afford nor justify dropping $5k + on brewing gear right now. That said, I'm already almost $2500 (fully refundable) into the not-yet-in-production Z2, so I've chosen to look at that amount as "sunk costs", which could be re-purposed if I decided to go another direction.

So actually the next thread I was going to start once this one ran its course was how to build towards something like that without too much re-buying. That's part of why I'm spending so much time agonizing over it. If I knew in advance that eBIAB would be my end state, I'd probably just buy the Brew Boss. There's some really cool innovation and automation in that system. But if I decided to move on to a 2 or 3 vessel system, there's not a whole lot that's "best of breed" for that configuration that I wouldn't want to swap out. In that regard, something like the Grounded kettle or a custom Spike might be more attractive, since i'd just add another kettle(s) and swap the controller if I wanted to expand. This is where I start to go down the rabbit hole.

To answer some of your questions:

I've been in IT forever, and am a bit of a geek and gadget freak. I've been roasting my own coffee for about 3-4 years, and just finished building two new desks in my office from raw materials. That said, I don't have limitless time to tinker, which is one of the reasons I don't build my own PCs anymore (no longer having time/inclination to game being the other).

Cleaning doesn't bother me (and I did make my own PBW to clean my existing gear), but I wouldn't say I enjoy it, and certainly don't want to spend multiple hours doing it every brew day.

I just had a 30A circuit extended in my garage, to a spot where I have 64" or so of contiguous wall-space that I can dedicate to brewing, with a garden hose bib right in the middle. So I could do a straight stainless table, or one with an integral sink--just have to figure out the drain part. I could get a little more wallspace by reconfiguring some other stuff, but just one or two more feet. I could also next an additional table underneath, and pull it out for brewday--making an L configuration--if need be, but that wouldn't be ideal.

The garage is insulated but not heated, in the suburbs of Chicago. It occasionally gets below freezing in there, typically when it's well below zero outside for an extended period. I do have a 4000w electric heater, but it's on the same circuit as the brewhouse would be, so I could run it before but not during brewing.

I enjoy brewing, but don't know yet how much I care about efficiency. I'd be fine with a 4-6 hour brew day, but really don't want 12.

 

[BrunDog]

How about starting with a single vessel BIAB. The bag doesn’t cost you much, the that kettle can be repurposed as your BK if you then decide to expand to a multi-vessel (2 vessels most bestest!).

The controller is definitely the bigger decision here. If you are handy and down for the challenge, building your own can give you a pathway to expansion. If not, buy a 2-vessel 30A controller. You will pay a bit more for the second element channel, but I think it will save you money and heartache should you want to add that second element later.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

You can use a single vessel controller for 3 vessel just by swapping plugs but frankly I dont understand the draw to 2/3 vessels even in the long term. Extra hour for a few extra efficiency points.

It can be more than that. If you want to brew super high gravity beers (12+% stouts, for example), single vessel can be a challenge or not even possible. I'm pretty sure you can't do the 25.5 lbs of grain that went into the last 5G stout I brewed with a Brew Boss. If you can, starting with a lower efficiency rig may lead to it's own problems.

3 Vessel is the most versatile system, but it comes with more time, effort and cost as a general rule.

 

[Wizard_of_Frobozz]

It can be more than that. If you want to brew super high gravity beers (12+% stouts, for example), single vessel can be a challenge or not even possible. I'm pretty sure you can't do the 25.5 lbs of grain that went into the last 5G stout I brewed with a Brew Boss. If you can, starting with a lower efficiency rig may lead to it's own problems.

Well, you CAN brew a high gravity beer like that IF you are willing to lower your batch size. If you can't fit the grain bill in for a 5 gallon batch, try 4 or 3 gallons.

On my rig, I can't brew a 5 gallon batch for anything over around 1.080 OG. That's totally ok with me - 99% of what I brew is 1.065 and below. On the odd chance I decide to do a Barleywine or RIS, then I'll bring the batch size down to make it work. I wouldn't design a system to handle absolutely everything for all possible batch sizes.

That being said, that's MY design method. If maximum flexibility is important to you, then that's what should determine your design. The benefit to starting with BIAB and growing from there is you can repurpose just about everything you buy into more advanced setups, and you won't be out any "investment" money.

How about starting with a single vessel BIAB. The bag doesn’t cost you much, the that kettle can be repurposed as your BK if you then decide to expand to a multi-vessel (2 vessels most bestest!).

The controller is definitely the bigger decision here. If you are handy and down for the challenge, building your own can give you a pathway to expansion. If not, buy a 2-vessel 30A controller. You will pay a bit more for the second element channel, but I think it will save you money and heartache should you want to add that second element later.

I agree with Brundog - design your controls for flexibility and you can grow everything else as time, money, and brewing experience allows. Always buy a bigger enclosure/panel than you think you need!

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

Well, you CAN brew a high gravity beer like that IF you are willing to lower your batch size. If you can't fit the grain bill in for a 5 gallon batch, try 4 or 3 gallons.

On my rig, I can't brew a 5 gallon batch for anything over around 1.080 OG. That's totally ok with me - 99% of what I brew is 1.065 and below. On the odd chance I decide to do a Barleywine or RIS, then I'll bring the batch size down to make it work. I wouldn't design a system to handle absolutely everything for all possible batch sizes.

That being said, that's MY design method. If maximum flexibility is important to you, then that's what should determine your design. The benefit to starting with BIAB and growing from there is you can repurpose just about everything you buy into more advanced setups, and you won't be out any "investment" money.



I agree with Brundog - design your controls for flexibility and you can grow everything else as time, money, and brewing experience allows. Always buy a bigger enclosure/panel than you think you need!

This is true. It's also a smaller investment for a much faster brew day. It was my plan but I like to brew everything from 1.045 to 1.128 OG's I've ruled it out. For many others, it's a perfect fit.

I'm currently debating between 2 vessel kettle RIMS, a counterflow HERMS, or a full up 3 vessel HERMS rig. I'm leaning towards trying the kettle RIMS which could expand into the 3V if necessary.

 

[Lax coach]

All good info, thanks everyone. To sort of bring it back around, a couple of you have confirmed that if expansion is a good possibility, a 2-element panel should be considered. So if you were buying, what would you choose, and why?

Just to put a little box around the question, assume that I might be willing to build from a kit for the experience and to save a little money, but I don't feel comfortable designing and building from scratch. And while Brucontrol looks totally awesome and I would totally be willing to pay for it, I definitely don't feel qualified to build one.

 

[kyt]

I chose the Grounded Brewing 50A panel because it was custom designed, and turn-key ready, for less than I could get a similar panel from other places where I'd have to put the whole thing together.

I decided that I didn't really save enough money for a DIY kit to cover the time would really take me to put it all together. And it wouldn't look NEARLY as clean an organized as what I received.

Additionally, the 50A lets me control both elements independently. And it has controls for 2 accessories (pumps) I could use these to power other things if I really wanted to. Like a Mark II keg washer, or whatever. Haven't had a need to do that yet, but I could. If I really needed to, I could put both elements in one big BIAB batch.

I'm also one of those people that buys the TV with all the features, just because I find it infinitely annoying when my remote has buttons that don't work on my model :| Except for 3D, I don't buy that model, it costs too much more and I would never use it. So that button makes me angry.

100% satisfied with this purchase, and the support they provide.

 

[sfrisby]

For what it’s worth, I’m planning on the brew boss controller only and other company’s vessels. I’m looking at rims and a mash tun that I can choose no sparge for smaller beers and then sparge for bigger ones.

When doing BIG beers, you can also do 2 mashs into 1 boil to justify the effort.

So, your idea on brew boss with the single vessel that you can expand and repurpose that vessel may be an option for your situation.