Differences between English invert sugar and Belgian candi sugar

[SconnieBrewer]

I've seen the recipe for making invert sugars numbers 1, 2, and 3 on the unholymess.com blog. The process here involves inverting raw or partially-refined cane sugar with heat and acid and then developing color using relatively low heat (240 F) for prolonged times (hours). Given the low temperature, color formation is presumably from caramelization of fructose.

I've also seen various recipes for making Belgian candi sugar which involve inverting refined sugar (beet or cane) with heat and acid, neutralizing the acid and making the solution alkaline, and then heating at various temperatures for a shorter time in the presence of an amino source. Color development here is presumably due primarily to maillard reactions and to a lesser degree caramelization.

Questions:
1) Is this an accurate description of how these darker invert sugars were/are made? I.e., English invert = caramelization, and Belgian candi = maillard?
2) How does the taste compare between these sugars for a given SRM?
3) Can Belgian candi sugar/syrup be substituted for the invert sugar called for in the old English recipes?
4) What about the 1400 Lovibond "caramel" in these old English mild recipes that I've seen? Is this the same as the caramel coloring used in the cola industry? How is this different from a really dark Belgian candy syrup?

 

[SuperCoolGuy-Brewing]

While this is an old thread, I would be curious if anyone has any answers for these questions now. OP asked all the same questions I have had about British invert vs Belgian Candi.

 

[GlobalNomad80]

While this is an old thread, I would be curious if anyone has any answers for these questions now. OP asked all the same questions I have had about British invert vs Belgian Candi.

Candi sugar = Sugar Beet
Invert sugar = Cane sugar

 

[brewSJ]

White sugar is white sugar, doesn't matter if it came from sugar cane or beets. Without a mass spectrometer there's no good way to tell them apart.

I have yet to see a reliable description of candi sugar or how its made, but it's a flavorful syrup of some kind from Belgium. Beyond that, I can't say and I've never seen a reliable source.

Traditional invert syrups, on the other hand, are very well documented for example Huron, 1896 or Baker, 1902. You use heat and a bit of acid to catalyze the separation of table sugar [sucrose] into simple sugars [fructose and glucose]. The source sugar was historically raw sugar of some kind, not white sugar, so the color was there from the beginning. Manufacturers actively took steps to prevent caramel from forming because it lowered the fermentability.

 

[VikeMan]

I have yet to see a reliable description of candi sugar or how its made, but it's a flavorful syrup of some kind from Belgium.

I think most homebrew stores (in the USA, anyway) would sell you something like this if you asked for Belgian Candy Sugar. It's not inverted.

There's also Candi Syrup, which may or may not be made the same way as the stuff purportedly used by some Belgain Brewers. I'm pretty sure it is inverted.

IIRC, Stan Hieronymus goes into some detail on various belgian sugars in his book "Brew Like a Monk." But I don't have it handy right now.

 

[mac_1103]

FAQ

Belgian Rock Candi is a solid adjunct with a commonly stated fermentable contribution of about 1.046 PPG. In its current commercial offering it is primarily sucrose and generally regarded as flavorless in all styles. Candi syrup is an all natural crafted adjunct with specific percentiles of fructose and glucose with varying small degrees of sucrose depending on style. Candi syrup is directly fermentable at 1.032 PPG with rich and complex flavor contributions.

 

[huckdavidson]

The invert syrups gain color/flavor from an acidic environment (inversion) and heat related maillard reactions over a period of time.
The candi syrups gain color/flavor from an alkaline environment with amino acid and heat related maillard reactions over a period of time but may or may not start with an invert syrup.

Industrial (candy making) equipment and processes to make candi syrups have the capabilities to constantly stir (and scrape) the confection (deals with stray crystals and less pure sugars like date sugar), measure the pH and temperature in real time, vacuum and strain the syrup at just the right state (temperature/time).

These series of posts attempt to explain the differences and make belgian candi sugar and syrup:

https://suigenerisbrewing.blogspot.com/2013/09/making-belgian-candi-sugar.html
https://suigenerisbrewing.blogspot.com/2013/10/belgian-candi-sugar-ii.html
https://suigenerisbrewing.com/index.php/2016/03/15/belgian-candi-sugar-part-iii/
https://joshthebrewmaster.wordpress.com/2010/11/27/how-to-make-belgian-candi-sugar/
https://joshthebrewmaster.wordpress.com/2010/12/01/how-to-make-belgian-candi-syrup/
https://lifefermented.wordpress.com/2013/06/11/diy-belgian-candy-syrup-1-sugar-science/
https://lifefermented.wordpress.com/2013/06/16/diy-belgian-candy-syrup-2-experiments/

 

[brewSJ]

The invert syrups gain color/flavor from an acidic environment (inversion) and heat related maillard reactions over a period of time.

While that's the internet wisdom, it's not historically correct. Invert syrups manufacturers actively avoided any kind of browning, and then took steps to reduce the color still further. The Baker article I linked to above is very clear: the taste of invert syrup is molasses. It's not caramel (heated sugar) or toasted bread (Maillard reactions). Those tastes may be in the Belgian Syrups --- I don't question the FAQ's "rich and complex flavor contributions", I just don't know what that actually means --- but what the SuiGeneris blob and its desendents are making is definitely not traditional English brewer's invert.

 

[VikeMan]

The Baker article I linked to above is very clear: the taste of invert syrup is molasses. It's not caramel (heated sugar) or toasted bread (Maillard reactions). Those tastes may be in the Belgian Syrups --- I don't question the FAQ's "rich and complex flavor contributions", I just don't know what that actually means --- but what the SuiGeneris blob and its desendents are making is definitely not traditional English brewer's invert.

If you are referring to Candi Syrup's (i.e. candisyrup.com's) FAQ, I can testify that D-45 definitely has a caramel flavor, however it's made. I've used it to successfully add recognizable caramel notes to a "turtle candy" pastry stout.

 

[huckdavidson]

While that's the internet wisdom, it's not historically correct. Invert syrups manufacturers actively avoided any kind of browning, and then took steps to reduce the color still further.

My statement that you've quoted is both historically and scientifically correct and is neutral on both accounts.

Invert syrup starts out clear. If addition color is desired then heat is applied for desired periods of time.

The Baker article I linked to above is very clear: the taste of invert syrup is molasses. It's not caramel (heated sugar) or toasted bread (Maillard reactions). Those tastes may be in the Belgian Syrups --- I don't question the FAQ's "rich and complex flavor contributions", I just don't know what that actually means ---

Who or what are you refuting that claims invert syrup tastes like caramel?

but what the SuiGeneris blob and its desendents are making is definitely not traditional English brewer's invert.

They're making Belgian Candi Sugars, that's why they have titles that include "Belgian Candi Sugar".

 

[DuncB]

I think this thread covers the home making of belgian candy sugar/ syrup well.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/20-lb-sugar-jar-yeast-nutrient-114837/
On a separate note I'm considering inverting the excessive amount of lactose sugar I have in the cupboard into something fermentable.
Any experience with this? Taste wise?
Commercial distiller near me uses Lactose sugar inverted for their wash.

 

[huckdavidson]

On a separate note I'm considering inverting the excessive amount of lactose sugar I have in the cupboard into something fermentable.
Any experience with this? Taste wise?
Commercial distiller near me uses Lactose sugar inverted for their wash.

Lactose requires the lactase enzyme to break down (invert) into glucose and galactose. Not sure what yeasts will break down galactose and there may be remnant flavor ions after hydrolysis.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/lactose-lactase.399950/

 

[DuncB]

Lactose requires the lactase enzyme to break down (invert) into glucose and galactose. Not sure what yeasts will break down galactose and there may be remnant flavor ions after hydrolysis.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/lactose-lactase.399950/

I'm sure that a weak or strong acid and heat will catalyse the reaction to break the bonds, the distillery only uses citric acid and heat.

You don't need to use Sucrase to break down white sugar, but you could.

 

[huckdavidson]

I'm sure that a weak or strong acid and heat will catalyse the reaction to break the bonds, the distillery only uses citric acid and heat.

You don't need to use Sucrase to break down white sugar, but you could.

Yes acid hydrolysis will work also (vs enzymatic hydrolysis).

It would be interesting to know if the distilling process leaves remnant lactate ions behind (heads, tails) vs. how those affect the brewing process (i.e. can the syrup only be used in a milk stout type beer or is it more neutral). And how does such a syrup behave (color) when heated?

 

[DuncB]

Yes acid hydrolysis will work also (vs enzymatic hydrolysis).

It would be interesting to know if the distilling process leaves remnant lactate ions behind (heads, tails) vs. how those affect the brewing process (i.e. can the syrup only be used in a milk stout type beer or is it more neutral). And how does such a syrup behave (color) when heated?

I'm not sure how any lactate ions would move across in the distilling process. Wouldn't be much good if sodium ions moved across when salt water was distilled.
They ferment the sugars made to an alcohol wash and then distill that leaving the rest of the ferment behind.

But I'm interested to see how the inverting works on the lactose and what tastes develop. I was thinking along the lines of an Inverted! milk stout, or use in an English beer.

 

[huckdavidson]

I'm not sure how any lactate ions would move across in the distilling process. Wouldn't be much good if sodium ions moved across when salt water was distilled.
They ferment the sugars made to an alcohol wash and then distill that leaving the rest of the ferment behind.

But I'm interested to see how the inverting works on the lactose and what tastes develop. I was thinking along the lines of an Inverted! milk stout, or use in an English beer.

Milk stout maybe but an English beer...

It's interesting that there don't appear to be any commercial lactose based invert syrups available, maybe for good reason. (Not to be confused with lactulose.)

 

[DuncB]

My old boss used to say that Lactulose was satans drug. We could red herring him for ages by just dropping that into the conversation.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

FAQ

Belgian Rock Candi is a solid adjunct with a commonly stated fermentable contribution of about 1.046 PPG. In its current commercial offering it is primarily sucrose and generally regarded as flavorless in all styles. Candi syrup is an all natural crafted adjunct with specific percentiles of fructose and glucose with varying small degrees of sucrose depending on style. Candi syrup is directly fermentable at 1.032 PPG with rich and complex flavor contributions.

Was just thinking of this as I'm about to dive into some Belgian brewing (never done it), and I have gallons of invert between 1-4, as I do so much British brewing. So, wondering if the invert was essentially the same thing. I see it's not. In a Westvleteren 8 clone, what I have is calling for Belgian Clear and Belgian amber. Anecdotally I'm seeing comments that indicate Stan Hieronymous states the Belgians use the syrup, not the rock candi. Didn't know the syrup yielded more unfermentables, which yeah, seems to me suggests a heck of a lot more complex and flavorful. Thanks.