I figure I am down to about $38.96 per 12 ounce glass now. I enjoy it with my $64.67/lb deer sausage. But boy is it worth it. We make great beer.
Did you break even yet?
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I don't get the "you drink more beer, so you don't break even" argument. If I were made out of money, I'd be drinking the same amount of commercial beer. I had an interest in the commercial stuff before. Still have, but it's hard to justify spending 8$ regularly for a pint at a bar when I can brew a similar pint for pennies at home. It's because it's too expensive that I don't drink as much commercial beer.
For myself, I think I'm vastly ahead. I don't have a kegging setup, no temperature control (except from a big washing bucket) and apart from tubbing and one auto-siphon, everything old has been repurposed and is still in use. Old buckets ? Tomato plants growing in them right now. I jumped into the simplest (and cheapest) possible AG setup from the get go. I have a 20$ cooler, a 60$ turkey fryer setup and maybe 40$ invested in buckets and other equipment. I sold of few carboys for the same price I bought them. And that's it. I remember spending 120$ at a bar on a single weekend when I was young and foolish.
As far as ingredients go. I buy all my malt and hops in bulk. Yeast I wash and reuse, or I use dry yeast. Most of my batches come under 15$ TOTAL for 15L. I still have hops I bought from last year, so I probably won't have to buy hops before March at the earliest. Not brewing supper-duper triple extreme IPAs (aged on bourbon infused virgin tears, thank you), also helps
It's once you start "investing" into grain mills, keggerators, 15gal brew kettles, fridges and conicals that breaking even becomes impossible. That, and brewing 150gal a year while you're the only one in the household drinking beer. This means that you are giving away (and not throwing away I hope!) a good amount of your savings.
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
For myself, I think I'm vastly ahead. I don't have a kegging setup, no temperature control (except from a big washing bucket) and apart from tubbing and one auto-siphon, everything old has been repurposed and is still in use. Old buckets ? Tomato plants growing in them right now. I jumped into the simplest (and cheapest) possible AG setup from the get go. I have a 20$ cooler, a 60$ turkey fryer setup and maybe 40$ invested in buckets and other equipment. I sold of few carboys for the same price I bought them. And that's it. I remember spending 120$ at a bar on a single weekend when I was young and foolish.
As far as ingredients go. I buy all my malt and hops in bulk. Yeast I wash and reuse, or I use dry yeast. Most of my batches come under 15$ TOTAL for 15L. I still have hops I bought from last year, so I probably won't have to buy hops before March at the earliest. Not brewing supper-duper triple extreme IPAs (aged on bourbon infused virgin tears, thank you), also helps
It's once you start "investing" into grain mills, keggerators, 15gal brew kettles, fridges and conicals that breaking even becomes impossible. That, and brewing 150gal a year while you're the only one in the household drinking beer. This means that you are giving away (and not throwing away I hope!) a good amount of your savings.
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
hecliff
Well-Known Member
I broke even when I tasted that first homebrew and I liked it. I also broke even when I retasted Coor's and I didn't like it.
chalmer9
Well-Known Member
I never got into this hobby with the intention of saving money. But if I think about it, there's definitely no way. One of the primary reasons is I would never buy this much craft beer from stores anyway.
I'm broke, even though I brew my own!
I haven't kept track of costs or any of that but the feeling I get when someone tries my brew and likes it is priceless.
I'm somewhat of a square when it comes to partying, big gatherings and what not but I thrive when I gotta get up a 5a to fire up the smoker.
Once the meat and the beer (all the random other crap) is served and everyone is quiet from stuffing their faces and washing it down, I break even...
I haven't kept track of costs or any of that but the feeling I get when someone tries my brew and likes it is priceless.
I'm somewhat of a square when it comes to partying, big gatherings and what not but I thrive when I gotta get up a 5a to fire up the smoker.
Once the meat and the beer (all the random other crap) is served and everyone is quiet from stuffing their faces and washing it down, I break even...
broadbill
Well-Known Member
Time is money when you are counting...The problem I had was that previous posters were only counting equipment and material costs. If you are going to count, you have to count everything, including the biggest cost: labor.
Or, you do what most of us do: call it hobby and don't worry about it, admit you are losing money and not worry about it. Saying it is/isn't cheaper than another hobby isn't valid because its all a wash anyway because its a hobby.
For those who are counting: There is NO WAY you can EVER come out ahead when you factor in labor.
e.g. take someone who has a annual salary of 50K....that is $24/hour. If it takes 6 hours for an average AG batch that is a labor cost of $144/5 gallons. Each beer costs you $3 in labor. That is BEFORE adding in material costs. Think what you can buy a sixer of the best craft beer for.
Heck, say you do 10 gallon batches: that is still $1.50/beer. You'd still be hard-pressed to produce beer for what you can buy it.
You may value your time more/or less, but the point is the same...there is a big cost in your time, and where you decide to apply it. There are plenty of people who give this hobby up because its too much work for output. There is a reason behind that.
sorry if this is off-topicJiBiru8 said:
JiBiru8,were are you located in Japan? Wonder where you get your supplies. There's no lhbs's anywhere around where I live so I order everything online at 2shops i found.
To answer the other poster about brewing over 1% abv being illegal in Japan, yes it is, but mainly on paper. As long as you don't try to sell it you're pretty much ok.
fbaillargeon
Well-Known Member
What area of japan are you in?
Unless you miss work or decide not to take up a second job because of your hobbies, you are not losing any revenue by partaking in an activity because in absolute terms, your time is worth nothing in dollars and there's thus no need to factor it in the calculations. Do you also count your "losses" from sleeping, eating and interacting with family ? Sure you could do other things (golfing, reading, etc.), but these other activities do not actually give you a salary either. Sure you have to choose how to best allocate your time, but when you choose to spend your free time doing A instead of B, there's still no monetary value to your time expenditure.
"Sorry honey, I have talked to you for all of 2 hours today, and since my hourly is 30$, it's starting to get expensive. See ya tomorrow at breakfast, or else I'll blow my budget!"
Time is a finite quantity. It's because people have better things to do or just don't have time for the hobby that they quit, not because they reason that at the hourly they earn, homebrewing is just too costly. Hobbies are hobbies, your time doesn't cost you antyhing per se, but it's true that you have less time for other (non money earning) activities.
I have recently planted a garden in my backyard. I have tallied all my costs, but I don't tally my labour. Why ? Because I wouldn't be working if I weren't growing delicious vegetables, I'd be watching TV, reading a book or doing other non value productive activities (ie. I get stuff to eat for cheap when I garden).
I have a spread sheet of my costs and the amount I have bottled and the total is now at $1.92 per bottle.
I would say that I am a LONG way from breaking even because before homebrewing I might have spent about $10 a month on average for beer.
I would say that I am a LONG way from breaking even because before homebrewing I might have spent about $10 a month on average for beer.
tchamber
Well-Known Member
I'm not counting. This is a hobby to me, not an economy drive.
fbaillargeon
Well-Known Member
Na, I'm from Quebec but visited Japan twice already. I loved the Akita region for it's strong sake's and heartwarming fellows I have met.
fbaillargeon said:
Lucky you... I don't mean for not living in Japan, but for having visited Akita and tasted its excellent sake.. Haven't been so far up north yet myself but would love to. Got one of your fellow countrymen in my village though!
broadbill
Well-Known Member
You have totally missed the point.
You want to value labor @ your 'career' rate.
He's saying he values his time as $0/hr since if he wasn't brewing, he'd be sitting on ass.
I have to agree with him. I bill anywhere from $50-$100/hr for work. I work 8 hours on a good day and have no interest in working any longer than that so after 5pm, my rate is really $0 since I like to sit on ass too.
I have to look that word up.... I mean I knew it was some kind of administrative district...
I now can go home, drink beer, and "veg" in front of the YV since I have learned ONE thing today....
Kolsch,,,, I think I will have a Kolsch...
Curtis2010
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I assume I am way in the hole, but not counting.
If I just wanted cheap beer then I can buy a case of mass produced brew here for about $13US. Ultimately, way cheaper than brewing it myself.
If I just wanted cheap beer then I can buy a case of mass produced brew here for about $13US. Ultimately, way cheaper than brewing it myself.
broadbill
Well-Known Member
You choose to value your time not spent working at $0. That doesn't means it still doesn't have value. Time has inherent value because its finite (as pointed out previously). You ignore time's inherent value under certain circumstances....and that's OK, I do the same thing.
My original point was to those who said they were actually coming out ahead by brewing their own, but were not taking into account their labor. My point was if you are going to count, than count right. Otherwise, do what the rest of us do and blindly ignore the fact there no way you are saving yourself money doing this, other than severely undervaluing your time in which to do it.
That's all I'm saying.
If you have people buy you your equipment as gifts then it goes a long way towards helping you break even. My wife bought me my keggle and immersion chiller and these are two of my more expensive items.
Gameface
Well-Known Member
There is no possible way I've broken even. I would consider that a form of failure. Collecting more and bigger and better equipment is the goal as much as making good beer is.
Weeezle007
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Dang..I do by Hamms on sale!! (Hamms Light even). By the way..first batch of Hefe extract costs me $10.40 per bottle..55 bottles. YAY!! By around the 7th batch it gets cost effective..which means I need to drink more HB!! Double YAY!
I just averaged $20 a batch for my last 3 batches. I made an ipa. Peanut butter porter, and cream ale.
Just my ingredients puts me at $.40 per good craft beer.
I'm saving money. No doubt. As for the time I put in....I would be just sitting around drinking beer anyways. and if I get a friend to help...they work for beer. Most they will drink is a 6 pack. That averages at $2.40 for someone to help me. I brew good beer with cheap equipment. I'm probably gonna keep it that way too.
Just my ingredients puts me at $.40 per good craft beer.
I'm saving money. No doubt. As for the time I put in....I would be just sitting around drinking beer anyways.
and if I get a friend to help...they work for beer. Most they will drink is a 6 pack. That averages at $2.40 for someone to help me. I brew good beer with cheap equipment. I'm probably gonna keep it that way too.
bioguy
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I take issue with the "count right". If I weren't brewing, I might be playing golf for entertainment. In that case, you would count brewing as a savings since it is much cheaper than golf on a per session cost unless you own your own golf course. Instead of paying $40 greens fees, I'm saving that $40 and entertaining myself.
amandabab
Well-Known Member
my time? I enjoy it, its fun.
My equipment? They are my toys and I like playing with them.
Its a hobby and a CHEAP hobby compared to most.
2 cases of drinkable beer is over $60.00
ingredients for 2 cases is about $30.00
My equipment? They are my toys and I like playing with them.
Its a hobby and a CHEAP hobby compared to most.
2 cases of drinkable beer is over $60.00
ingredients for 2 cases is about $30.00
Don't give a damn,don't count my time because I DO NOT care. I make money when i am at work, when I am on my time that is for me to do as I want and I enjoy brewing.
By the same token, everytime I cook, instead of going to the restaurant or buying ready made at the grocery store, it's costing me more money because of the "value" I give to my time. As a (in the very near future) civil law notary, the hourly is around 40$ an hour.
A tub of spaghetti sauce for 4 at the grocery store is around 10$. My recipe, when done in huge batches that take 8 hours to prepapre, makes around 10 meals for 4 and costs around 50$ to make in ingredients. If I use your "count right" method, the grocery store stuff is 100$ and mine is almost 400$ for the same volume.
See why it doesn't make any sense ? I get the feeling you want to rationalize your spending by labelling it as a hobby (ie. a money pit). It's fine, nothing wrong with that. But some of us (me included) are in this to save money, or at least break even. And at 1$/beer for swill, it's not as impossible as you want to make it.
Zymurgist05
Member
I didn't get into homebrewing to save money on the beer I bought. In fact, I didn't drink too much commercial beer back then... well before craft beer became so popular. I started brewing for the past time. At that time, I had no idea that I would invest so much time and money into it. Looking back, I wouldn't change a thing.
Regardless of the cost, brewing has been such a mental relief to me. Those six hours I devote to brew day keeps me from thinking about work and the daily crud that occupies my mind. I focus on the brew process, enjoy some music or sports talk show and have a few beers. Life doesn't get much better for those six hours.
Regardless of the cost, brewing has been such a mental relief to me. Those six hours I devote to brew day keeps me from thinking about work and the daily crud that occupies my mind. I focus on the brew process, enjoy some music or sports talk show and have a few beers. Life doesn't get much better for those six hours.
If I estimate the value of my homebrew at a meager retail value of $50 per 24x12oz bottles (it's worth every penny), it will take me about 20 months to pay off my entire investment (all equipment and ingredients) as I'm only 16 months in and I'm 87.5% of the way paid off. Of course this doesn't include any cost estimate for labor...I donate my time and energy to this hobby out of love and passion.
And where I live:
Sam Adams goes for $10 per 6 pack
Sierra Nevada Pale goes for $10 per 6 pack
Brooklyn Lager goes for $10 per 6 pack
Boulder Hazed and Infused goes for $11 per 6 pack
Southampton Double White goes for $11 per 6 pack
Troegs Hopback Amber goes for $11 per 6 pack
Heavy Seas Loose Cannon IPA goes for $11 per 6 pack
Inbev's version of Hoegaarden goes for $12 per 6 pack
Dogfish Head 60 minute goes for $12 per 6 pack
Troegs JavaHead Stout goes for $13 per 6 pack
Founders Pale Ale goes for $13 per 6 pack
Victory Hop Devil goes for $14 per 6 pack
Samuel Smiths goes for $12 per 4 pack
And case discounts are miniscule at best.
I'll take my homebrews over any of these any day.
Don't even get me started on how much property taxes cost on a small lot in the mediocre suburb I live in
But if you want me to drop my value estimate to $40 per case then I'll break even in about 30 months total.
Atvar
Well-Known Member
In 3 years and 30 batches, I've pretty much broken even on the brewing side of things. It gets tricky to evaluate how much a bottle is worth. A lot of my first batches were <$1 per bottle (buying by the case). Now it's probably $1.25-$2.00 per bottle depending on style. Going by some other poster's guidelines, I'd have broken even in the first year.
chumpsteak
Well-Known Member
I just chuckle everytime I got to the store and see a bomber of mediocre beer for $6.99 when I know I can make it for a fraction of that. Everytime I feel like I've broken even though I just go buy more stuff. This hobby is pretty much the same as the rest of 'em. If you're satisfied with what you have you need to find a new hobby!
trumpetbeard
Well-Known Member
I don't know if I'll ever be satisfied with what I brew, and to me that's the beauty of this hobby.
I'm a semi-professional musician, and that's the beauty of that endeavor as well. You can practice (in brewing terms you can try different styles and techniques), but no matter what you do there's always room for improvement; as you grow as a brewer you will always learn new things about beer and the craft.
I love and enjoy the beer I make, but to adopt a cliché, there's no carrot to chase. I can always find some element of a brew that I'd like to improve or expound upon. As I get better at brewing my tastes evolve, and the process of testing and cultivating that appreciation of what real beer is and can be is well worth the cost of equipment and the continual investment in quality ingredients. I may have broken even on the cost ledger, but I hope that I'm getting more in personal points than dollars can account for.
broadbill
Well-Known Member
This is like saying that you went to the casino with $100, lost it all at the table and concluded that you broke even just because you only lost what you were planning to gamble.
The reality is that there is $100 in your bank account.
broadbill
Well-Known Member
I had a point-for-point answer to your reply but decided to take a different tack, so I hope you entertain me:
If you are truly breaking even with homebrewing, is it true that you would also breaking even at the commercial level? Why or why not?
Assume you already have a brewery up and operating and would not have to pay any start-up costs.
I have NO IDEA how you guys come to the conclusion that you're "breaking even" with this hobby. Yes, it's a hobby and I don't track the costs to be anal, I'm just curious. But I'm a Cost Analyst, so such is life.
I have a spreadsheet that I track every equipment purchase, sorted by type (Brewing/Kegging/Bottling/Fermenting), the ingredient cost and my bulk purchases.
So far, I'm 55 batches in, I haven't bought craft beer in quite a long time, and I'm down to $10.14 per sixer. Am I saving money? Absolutely not. Am I having a blast? You betcha.
I have a spreadsheet that I track every equipment purchase, sorted by type (Brewing/Kegging/Bottling/Fermenting), the ingredient cost and my bulk purchases.
So far, I'm 55 batches in, I haven't bought craft beer in quite a long time, and I'm down to $10.14 per sixer. Am I saving money? Absolutely not. Am I having a blast? You betcha.
