Diagnosis: In need of help

Williams 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
J

jsvarney5

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 7, 2014
Messages
64
Reaction score
8
Hi all,

I've been having a frustrating run at brewing now for a couple months and I'm not sure whats going wrong. I'd like to think my process is pretty solid. All grain brewer, RIMS system, treat water, measure pH, make starters, oxygenate wort, etc. But alot of my beers are coming out with a similar, i guess id call it a "house" taste, at this point regardless of the yeast im using. It's an off flavor that I cant quite seem to put my finger on. Maybe phenolic? I did have that identified on one scoresheet in a competition by one judge but not others.

I've had a double ipa judged and identified diacetyl but thats not really what im sensing in these brews. Maybe that one but not this consistent off flavor. In a most recent split batch where I tried Yooper's Ruination clone and split the other half into a fermenter with Conan, I got it in both. Initially, (just a couple days sitting on co2) Conan tasted great. The malt character was vibrant and full and tasted like a solid commercial double ipa. But as a week went by that went away and the two batches tasted very similar with the off flavor I mentioned. Because of this I'm starting to wonder if there's something up with my co2 transfer causing an off flavor? Kegs? I make starters so I think Im pitching enough yeast, I clean everything with PBW and sanitize with star san before racking, aerate with pure oxygen for about a minute to a minute and a half depending on the brew, control fermentation temps, etc. I also cleaned my co2 lines with pbw probably about a month ago.

One culprit I also think may be to blame if not infection somewhere in my kegging system is the oxygenation wand. I've never though much about it but after each brew i basically rinse it off with hot water and put it away. Then just sanitize it before each brew. I havent really cleaned that. So a couple days ago I soaked it in a pbw solution in prep for brewing this weekend.

Does anyone have any thoughts for me? It's really frustrating. I know it's probably difficult because Im not describing the off flavor in detail and I can try to get more specific with it but i just cant seem to put my finger on what it tastes like. Any help is much appreciated. Thanks!
 
use tap water? maybe try bottled

if you think it's your kegging, try bottling a few from a batch

change 1 thing each time, or separate some of the batch to change, the rest keep as control.
 
Sweetwort-Hopkins said:
Oxidation somehow? Are you getting a paper-bag/cardboard flavor?
Click to expand...

Thanks for your input. I was thinking that and maybe I'll have to try it again tonight to see if i can pull that flavor out at all. Although I would be pretty surprised if so. The only time I introduce any oxygen is opening primary for dry hops. I only leave it in primary and rack to a keg under co2 and purge the headspace.
 
jsvarney5 said:
Thanks for your input. I was thinking that and maybe I'll have to try it again tonight to see if i can pull that flavor out at all. Although I would be pretty surprised if so. The only time I introduce any oxygen is opening primary for dry hops. I only leave it in primary and rack to a keg under co2 and purge the headspace.
Click to expand...

Sounds like fine practice! Man, good luck narrowing it down
 
The Belgian wit that I bottled was one of the best wits I've ever had. I had a keezer by the time I did a second batch of it so I legged the second batch and it was terrible. In wondering if possibly something went wrong during kegging. If you end up figuring this out let me know.
 
I'm going to go with oxidation. I've had the same issue and I'm confident that was the problem. I know most folks feel oxidation during Cool down is a myth, it could be a place to investigate.
 
minusthebear02 said:
Do you control fermentation temps? Temps that are too high can cause the off/phenolic esters right?
Click to expand...

Yes i control temps. held at about 62 for a couple weeks on the most recent brew but ive done beer at 65 ramping up to 85 (saison) etc and regardless i seem to get it.

kcinpdx said:
I'm going to go with oxidation. I've had the same issue and I'm confident that was the problem. I know most folks feel oxidation during Cool down is a myth, it could be a place to investigate.
Click to expand...

Yea I'm not ruling it out. I am just not sure what else i could be doing better if thats the case. I dont know if i've heard about oxidation during cool down. Could you elaborate?

TheMadKing said:
How much do you purge the headspace of your kegs? I would suspect oxygen as well.
Click to expand...

I purge a good bit. Probably over purge if anything. 10+ times?
 
kombat said:
That seems awfully unnecessary - do you have a cite for that? That's a lot of wasted CO2. I purge 5 times at 10 - 12 psi and have never had an issue with oxidation.
Click to expand...

Yes, @doug293cz has a table that he has posted in multiple forums showing the PSI vs # of purges vs the ppm O2. I'll see if I can dig it up when I get to my computer.
 
TheMadKing said:
Yes, @doug293cz has a table that he has posted in multiple forums showing the PSI vs # of purges vs the ppm O2. I'll see if I can dig it up when I get to my computer.
Click to expand...

That'd be interesting to see, for sure, but I'm also interested in whether or not getting oxygen down to 1ppm is necessary or overkill for preventing oxidation. Is it possible that oxidation becomes a non-issue below a higher, more easily attained saturation? Maybe 20 ppm is good enough? Where did the 1ppm threshold come from?
 
kombat said:
That'd be interesting to see, for sure, but I'm also interested in whether or not getting oxygen down to 1ppm is necessary or overkill for preventing oxidation. Is it possible that oxidation becomes a non-issue below a higher, more easily attained saturation? Maybe 20 ppm is good enough? Where did the 1ppm threshold come from?
Click to expand...

doug293cz said:
Several posters here have given different recommendations for the number of CO2 purge cycles (pressurize then vent cycles) in order to "eliminate" O2 from the headspace. The concentration of O2 remaining in the headspace depends on the purge pressure and the number of cycles. The O2 concentrations are easily calculated, and the results are presented below.

View attachment 333181

View attachment 333182

You have to decide for yourself how much O2 in the headspace is acceptable to you. Some commercial brewers target TPO (total packaged oxygen) at less than 0.2 ppm (200 ppb, ref: page 21 of http://www.craftbrewersconference.com/wp-content/uploads/2015_presentations/F1540_Darron_Welch.pdf.)

Brew on :mug:
Click to expand...

This is what doug posted, and apologies, its 11 purges at 30 PSI to get below 1 ppm, 15 purges to get below 0.1ppm.

Whether it's overkill depends on a lot of factors. What style of beer is it? How long will it be stored? What is your taste threshold for oxygenation? Do you really care that much?

I personally do, so I do 15 purges at 30 PSI and I've noticed a quality difference specifically in my hoppy beers. They stay at peak flavor longer and maintain the hop aromas much longer.

I don't mind using the extra CO2 either. At $25/fill and I only need to fill every 3-4 months, thats my cheapest bill by far.
 
Interesting. Apparently, I've been kegging my beers with almost 10,000 ppm of oxygen. :) Hasn't seemed to have made much of a difference, but maybe for my next batch or two, I'll try 11 purges at 30 psi and see if I notice any difference.

Of course, the other way you could do it (not sure if it uses less CO2 or not) would be to fill the keg to the brim with Starsan, seal it, then push it all out with CO2 (exactly as though you were serving beer) until it "kicks," then rack the beer into the keg (via the liquid out post), with an airlock on the gas post (to allow CO2 in the keg to escape and make room for the incoming beer, without allowing oxygen back in).

Is anyone here familiar enough with gas law to figure out if that would use less CO2? It would at least certainly result in a keg containing no oxygen whatsoever, no?
 
kombat said:
Interesting. Apparently, I've been kegging my beers with almost 10,000 ppm of oxygen. :) Hasn't seemed to have made much of a difference, but maybe for my next batch or two, I'll try 11 purges at 30 psi and see if I notice any difference.

Of course, the other way you could do it (not sure if it uses less CO2 or not) would be to fill the keg to the brim with Starsan, seal it, then push it all out with CO2 (exactly as though you were serving beer) until it "kicks," then rack the beer into the keg (via the liquid out post), with an airlock on the gas post (to allow CO2 in the keg to escape and make room for the incoming beer, without allowing oxygen back in).

Is anyone here familiar enough with gas law to figure out if that would use less CO2? It would at least certainly result in a keg containing no oxygen whatsoever, no?
Click to expand...

Yes it reduces your O2 level, I've seen that mentioned as an alternative before but I don't remember any numbers on it.

I don't know if it uses less co2 though, I'm sure it's an easy calculation since you know the volume of your keg and the pressure of your gas
 
So a couple things happened this weekend when I had a few friends over for a brew session. One of my friends tasted a keg in question with this off flavor and thought she got a plastic like flavor. Then at the end of the night, another friend said, "man, smell that chlorine" as i was filling up my kettle with cleaning/rinse water from the hose post brew.

This got me thinking, can the water i clean, sanitize and rinse with be the culprit? Too much chlorine or chloramine? I use distilled water for brewing but if i clean and rinse with chlorinated water, or even more impactful, rack into a keg that has residual sanitizer (made with water too high in chlorine), could this be giving an off flavor that i haven't been able to pinpoint in every batch?
 
This Morebeer article has some info about low pH removing chlorine: http://www.morebeer.com/articles/removing_chloramines_from_water
It was originally published by AJ deLange in Brewing Techniques. It states "It is also possible to remove chloramines by lowering the pH of the water. At low pH monochloramine converts to dichloramine, which, as we saw above, clears quickly (that is, overnight) from even standing water. Reducing the pH of the water to near pH 4 with hydrochloric acid will allow the dichloramine to escape; you could then restore the pH to a higher value suitable for dough-in with some kind of base." I took that to mean Star San or anything sanitized with it shouldn't have chlorine/chloramine in it. I hope I understood it correctly.
 
are you new to kegging or just get a new CO2 tank. I've read a few horror stories like yours where folks have traced it back to some industrial junk in their CO2 tanks. They changed out to a new Co2 tank and problem went away. Perhaps you can keg a beer from a friends CO2 or prime in the keg with sugar to test?

Also due to this issue when I exchange tanks I carb a few gallons of filtered water and make sure it still tastes water to me, it's the only way I could come up with to really 'test' for junk in my CO2 tank.

Best of luck nailing this down.
 
I would agree with HAusBrauerei... Your process seems to be pretty solid to have massive oxygenation issues. Many of us don't do multiple CO2 purges to clear our kegs. I usually do a couple, but 11?

From a problem analysis perspective I would focus on the most likely culprit. Things you have not tried to change before or for which you have no current process for. Changing out your CO2 would be something you likely have not done in a while and there are some "horror" stories here about off flavors from C02. Also, given it occurs after the beer has been in the keg could point to a keg system issue.

Another thought, do you tear down your system or clean in place? PBW is awesome but maybe it is worth checking all the nooks and crannies to see if there is some kind of burned on funk somewhere. However, I think it would need to be something that would be noticeably off to be adding the odd flavor to so many batches.

The point is, don't start with the small stuff first. Check the big stuff first. But break it down, one element at a time to ensure you can isolate the issue.

Good luck!
 
HausBrauerei_Harvey said:
are you new to kegging or just get a new CO2 tank. I've read a few horror stories like yours where folks have traced it back to some industrial junk in their CO2 tanks. They changed out to a new Co2 tank and problem went away. Perhaps you can keg a beer from a friends CO2 or prime in the keg with sugar to test?

Also due to this issue when I exchange tanks I carb a few gallons of filtered water and make sure it still tastes water to me, it's the only way I could come up with to really 'test' for junk in my CO2 tank.

Best of luck nailing this down.
Click to expand...

No I've been kegging for a couple years. I did get a 20 lb tank a few months ago but i also have a 5 lb backup and recently did a split batch and got it in both. Priming in the keg is a good idea. I just brewed on saturday and was thinking about bottling some and kegging some to see if something arises in one and not the other.

Carbonating water's a good test also. Probably unlikely the issue, but that way i can at least rule out bad co2 for sure. Thanks for the ideas.
 
I think you need to narrow down that flavor a little more specifically and go from there. What did the judge say on that competition sheet?
 
jsvarney5 said:
I just brewed on saturday and was thinking about bottling some and kegging some to see if something arises in one and not the other.

Carbonating water's a good test also. Probably unlikely the issue, but that way i can at least rule out bad co2 for sure. Thanks for the ideas.
Click to expand...

splitting some bottles and some kegged is a great idea as well, that will tell you if your problem is in packaging (kegging) or brewing to help you narrow it down. I'm happy to help I troubleshoot at ton at work the last few years and have found that thought process is really useful at home as well. :)
 
Brettomomyces said:
I think you need to narrow down that flavor a little more specifically and go from there. What did the judge say on that competition sheet?
Click to expand...

I agree. This is my biggest problem and I'll admit it. I'm not the most experienced taster so I am anxiously awaiting the competition results. Problem is, it's a large competition that basically spans weekends of 3 weeks this month so it may be a bit before i get some good feedback. But i submitted both split batches into the IPA and double IPA category so i should get about 8 scoresheets worth of feedback. I'm hoping that really gets me headed in the right direction.
 
HausBrauerei_Harvey said:
splitting some bottles and some kegged is a great idea as well, that will tell you if your problem is in packaging (kegging) or brewing to help you narrow it down. I'm happy to help I troubleshoot at ton at work the last few years and have found that thought process is really useful at home as well. :)
Click to expand...

Thanks. Always appreciate any additional feedback!
 
jsvarney5 said:
So a couple things happened this weekend when I had a few friends over for a brew session. One of my friends tasted a keg in question with this off flavor and thought she got a plastic like flavor. Then at the end of the night, another friend said, "man, smell that chlorine" as i was filling up my kettle with cleaning/rinse water from the hose post brew.

This got me thinking, can the water i clean, sanitize and rinse with be the culprit? Too much chlorine or chloramine? I use distilled water for brewing but if i clean and rinse with chlorinated water, or even more impactful, rack into a keg that has residual sanitizer (made with water too high in chlorine), could this be giving an off flavor that i haven't been able to pinpoint in every batch?
Click to expand...


Are you making star san with your tap water then letting it sit in your kegs till you rack to them? If so, that would be the #1 thing I would stop doing. Make your star san with chlorine / chloramine free water if you are keeping it in a keg. Star san can make a super bleach-like aroma when it sits for even a short time using my tap water. It will create a slimy film on whatever surface that it sits on that has a phenolic taste. If you are racking into kegs that tap water star san has been sitting in I would be surprised if that wasn't your problem.
 
jekeane said:
Are you making star san with your tap water then letting it sit in your kegs till you rack to them? If so, that would be the #1 thing I would stop doing. Make your star san with chlorine / chloramine free water if you are keeping it in a keg. Star san can make a super bleach-like aroma when it sits for even a short time using my tap water. It will create a slimy film on whatever surface that it sits on that has a phenolic taste. If you are racking into kegs that tap water star san has been sitting in I would be surprised if that wasn't your problem.
Click to expand...

Yes, that's exactly what I'm doing. In fact, I do the same with the fermenter before running into from the kettle. Sanitize the heat exchanger with the same water as well. So that's a really good point. I'll just make a distilled water/star san mixture before i keg this next one and see if i notice any differences. If I do, I will be a very happy man.
 
@jsvarney5, in post #20 you said one of your friends "thought she got a plastic like flavor", and "another friend said, "man, smell that chlorine" as I was filling up my kettle with cleaning/rinse water from the 'hose' post brew".

If you are using a regular garden hose for any use in the brewery that can be a cause for all kinds of off flavors including a plastic one. Get yourself a camper/boat/RV hose and dedicate it to brewery use only as they are drinking water safe w/no off tastes.

"Smell that chlorine", can be coming from your tap water, as others have said, you might need to try to remove it to see if that might be the cause. I use my tap water that has chloramines in it, but I treat mine the night before w/ potassium metabisulfite, the next morning on brew day I will stir the water in brew & mash keggles vigorously then on w/the brewing. Not had any problems w/chlorine smells/flavors since.

Hope this helps. David.
 
FoxPaw said:
@jsvarney5, in post #20 you said one of your friends "thought she got a plastic like flavor", and "another friend said, "man, smell that chlorine" as I was filling up my kettle with cleaning/rinse water from the 'hose' post brew".

If you are using a regular garden hose for any use in the brewery that can be a cause for all kinds of off flavors including a plastic one. Get yourself a camper/boat/RV hose and dedicate it to brewery use only as they are drinking water safe w/no off tastes.

"Smell that chlorine", can be coming from your tap water, as others have said, you might need to try to remove it to see if that might be the cause. I use my tap water that has chloramines in it, but I treat mine the night before w/ potassium metabisulfite, the next morning on brew day I will stir the water in brew & mash keggles vigorously then on w/the brewing. Not had any problems w/chlorine smells/flavors since.

Hope this helps. David.
Click to expand...

David, thanks for the tips. I brew with distilled but for everything else (cleaning, sanitizing and rinsing) im either using my hose or tapwater. Im thinking i can still use the hose to fill up for the cleaning cycle with PBW and maybe even rinse with hose water, but then when i run the final sanitizer loop through the system ill make a star san/ distilled water mix instead of using any other water. And any sanitizing on fermenters, kegs, heat exchanger, etc. moving forward will be with distilled as well. Thoughts?
 
HausBrauerei_Harvey said:
Foosier's response also just triggered a memory of mine.

Have you seen this horror story post on the Bluloshopher page

After reading it I went home and took apart my ball valves and was pretty grossed out by the gunk in there! maybe thats what your culprit is.
Click to expand...

I think this idea deserves some consideration. At least give that article a read. You mentioned in your first post that one judge called it diacetyl which is exactly what they perceived it as in that article. If you consistently brewed good beer previously but you are consistently not brewing good beer now, something has changed and it isn't your process, water, ingredients, etc, correct? What could have changed is something nasty could be built up somewhere that you are not considering like your ball valves. If there is some funk inside there, it doesn't matter what type of cleaner/sanitizer you are running through them. The funk will remain and harbor the nasties thus causing contact after the wort has been chilled.
 
So I'm quite certain your process is better than mine so I offer this with humility...
You originally mentioned that you were suspicious of your oxygen wand and had soaked it in pbw. Those holes are so small I have never been overly confident about a soak. I usually bring a portion of sparge water to full boil and use that to sterilize my wand during every session. I also make sure to blow air as I place and remove from starsan as well as have air blowing as I enter and remove it from wort. Then rinse and soak before putting it away. It's probably just my ocd but it just seems to me that the oxygen wand is a huge opp to really duck up a batch of beer

Good luck!
 
I'll go out on a limb and say you are introducing an unwanted "house yeast" somewhere in the process, most likely when you are making your starter. One thing to try would be get a couple of fresh vials and just dump them in to your fermenter and add the wort and see if you notice a difference. Seems like you got everything else pretty much squared away. Good Luck
 
Haven't seen anyone suggest that your beers might be over-carbonated. What temperature and PSI are you keeping the kegs at in the keezer?
 
TimmyWit said:
I think this idea deserves some consideration. At least give that article a read. You mentioned in your first post that one judge called it diacetyl which is exactly what they perceived it as in that article. If you consistently brewed good beer previously but you are consistently not brewing good beer now, something has changed and it isn't your process, water, ingredients, etc, correct? What could have changed is something nasty could be built up somewhere that you are not considering like your ball valves. If there is some funk inside there, it doesn't matter what type of cleaner/sanitizer you are running through them. The funk will remain and harbor the nasties thus causing contact after the wort has been chilled.
Click to expand...

Wow, that's a very interesting read. I'd be surprised if that were the case since I just got a new system in October and I take the valves off after every brew and soak in a PBW solution, but maybe it's worth at least checking out for peace of mind.

(I know a question will now come about the new system in October having an impact but I've had this off flavor on batches before that system too - which now that i think of it, may in and of itself rule out this potential diacetyl idea). But regardless, I'll look into it. Thanks for the info!
 
Moose_MI said:
So I'm quite certain your process is better than mine so I offer this with humility...
You originally mentioned that you were suspicious of your oxygen wand and had soaked it in pbw. Those holes are so small I have never been overly confident about a soak. I usually bring a portion of sparge water to full boil and use that to sterilize my wand during every session. I also make sure to blow air as I place and remove from starsan as well as have air blowing as I enter and remove it from wort. Then rinse and soak before putting it away. It's probably just my ocd but it just seems to me that the oxygen wand is a huge opp to really duck up a batch of beer

Good luck!
Click to expand...

No that's great feedback. I think I'll try that out next brew. Thanks.
 

Similar threads

odie
off flavor from transfer to mini keg???
Replies
9
Views
555
odie
odie
slurms
Beer oxidized when bottled from keg
Replies
16
Views
929
RyPA
RyPA
D
Possible mold introduction
Replies
3
Views
296
jschein
jschein
refect
How far will the flavor from lactic acid carry over?
Replies
9
Views
642
mabrungard
mabrungard
F
blasphemus beer blending?
Replies
31
Views
2K
madscientist451
madscientist451
BrewSwag 300

Latest posts

Back
Top