Developing an ideal "basic juice" cider

[theinterneti]

Thanks for visiting my thread,

Really enjoying the "Everyday simple cider" and "Graham's English" ciders that I've made up to this point. Working on dialing a blend of these for my taste, process and gear. I've read through the threads mentioned and a lot of the encyclopedia of yeast experiments.

THANK YOU all so much for those iconic threads. I've learned a ton!

• I have a 2 keg setup, I want to have the option of bottling in bulk (to clear a keg in a pinch) and so I need to stabilize/pasteurize in the keg. Do I need to age my cider before stabilizing/pasteurizing?

• I'm interested in dialing in "Graham's English". Is black tea really an ideal tannic agent? Would it be better to shell out for toasted oak, or tannin powder? Seems to me that toasted oak must be the most delicious, considering that apple tannins are unavailable. What about limes vs malic vs tartaric acid?

• Stopping fermentation vs fermenting until done and backsweeting with FCAJ. Is one of these methods distinctly better than the other? I understand that stopping fermentation leads to a slightly lower ABV brew than fermenting out and backsweetening. Some of the purists are suggesting that stopping fermentation with RS tastes better?

• I haven't yet had the ability to let my ciders 'age' as prescribed. Cider vanishing somewhere. Maybe I have a hole in my keg (LOL)? Hopefully, bulk bottling to finish off the keg will help me keep a few brews around to choose from.

So far, my process is as follows...

1. Aggressively pour 5 gallons bottled juice into brew bucket
2. Boil small amount of water and add (wyeast) yeast nutrient (1/4 tsp per gallon) per package instructions
3. Take OG reading
4. Add nutrient, then pitch US-05. (I've tested 1118, s-04, and Notti. US-05 seems cleanest to me. I ferment @ ~68 degrees F) -- Must I add acid/tannin now, or would kegging time work? If not using limes/tea what is the suggested dose of tannin/acid for 5 gallons?
5. Ferment until totally fermented out ~2 weeks to a month
6. FG reading
7. Cold crash 48+ hours
8. Rack into keg -- Here I should add the k-meta (1 campden/gal), wait a day and add k-sorbate (3/4 tsp per gal, not to exceed 1.5 tsp for 5 gal) to stabilize in the keg? Maybe bottle pasturizing the bottles I want to preserve would be an alternative to that? Does aging still provide a benefit after stabilization/pasteurization?
9. backsweeten and into the kegerator
   
10. Force carb
11. Drink

TL;DR -- a collection of specific questions based on reading a few cider threads

 

[theinterneti]

Edit -- Add thanks to forum, measurements for k-meta and k-sorb, clarity.

 

[theinterneti]

Looking at the forum guidelines (oops!) I see this is in the wrong forum. That might explain the lack of replies?

Any mods, please feel free to move my post to the correct forum.
Thank you.

 

[theinterneti]

Of course, people are welcome to reply before the thread gets moved. I see that I'm getting some views and I'm surprised that someone hasn't schooled me yet.

I'm hungry for knowledge here!

 

[RPh_Guy]

Do I need to age my cider before stabilizing/pasteurizing?

Make sure there are no off-flavors before stabilizing.

Is black tea really an ideal tannic agent? Would it be better to shell out for toasted oak, or tannin powder?

I don't like tea, so it's not what I would use.

The toasted French oak cubes I've used are nice.
Wine tannins are also great. Specifically I've used this and I'd highly recommend it: https://www.morebeer.com/products/tannin-ft-blanc-soft.html
These sources of tannin definitely add a nice dimension to cider.

What about limes vs malic vs tartaric acid?

I use malic acid because it is the natural acid in apples.

Acids are cheap, so it's easy to experiment if you want.

Measuring TA is the best method of measuring acidity, and having the measurement helps you properly adjust it, although going by taste is OK.

Stopping fermentation vs fermenting until done and backsweeting with FCAJ. Is one of these methods distinctly better than the other? I understand that stopping fermentation leads to a slightly lower ABV brew than fermenting out and backsweetening. Some of the purists are suggesting that stopping fermentation with RS tastes better?

I don't know. I like dry cider.

Must I add acid/tannin now, or would kegging time work? If not using limes/tea what is the suggested dose of tannin/acid for 5 gallons?

Tannins can be added at the beginning or later, but they need a few weeks to settle. The beginning is probably best.
For tannins, use the amount recommended by the manufacturer.

Acid should definitely be added after fermentation and sweetening (if you insist on sweetening).
The amount needed can vary drastically because the amount of acid in juice can vary drastically. Hence the need for measuring TA or adjusting by taste of the finished cider. Give it at least a couple weeks to finish before adjusting by taste because there may be acetaldehyde that will clear, which is a little sharp.

Rack into keg -- Here I should add the k-meta (1 campden/gal), wait a day and add k-sorbate (3/4 tsp per gal, not to exceed 1.5 tsp for 5 gal) to stabilize in the keg? Maybe bottle pasturizing the bottles I want to preserve would be an alternative to that? Does aging still provide a benefit after stabilization/pasteurization?

To properly dose sulfite you need to know the pH.

A high resolution scale is best for precise measurements of additives like sorbate, sulfite, tannins, and acid.

There's a thread here on Pasteurizing bottles if that interests you.

I can't say one way or the other about aging. My ciders are generally good young, so I drink them young and don't feel bad about it.
I do what I can to avoid off-flavors (fusels, sulfide, acetaldehyde, diacetyl, etc) so nothing needs to be aged away.

Other thoughts:
- The juice matters a lot. Compared to unfiltered juice I haven't had good results with filtered juice. YMMV.
- Fermentation temperature matters. Keep the yeast happy and ferment as cool as possible. Apple esters are volatile and decreasing the fermentation temperature helps preserve them.
- Everyone seems to prefer different yeast. Experiment and find what you like.

Hope this helps.
Cheers

 

[theinterneti]

@RPh_Guy -- Thanks for the reply, I really appreciate the feedback! You seem to really know your stuff based on the other threads I've seen your work in.

I guess I will pick up some toasted oak and tannin powder next time I'm @ LHBS.

I already have some citric acid around from candy-making, maybe I will try splashing a few grains into a mug of cider and feel it out a little before buying some malic powder @ LHBS.

I like dry cider too, but the fanciful part of me dreams of having a dry, off-dry, and sweet cider all available on tap. I have moods.

On the aging front, I see tons of posts about how apple flavor comes "right back" after a few months aging. These posts are suggesting that even a perfectly fine cider will improve with age. I wonder how might that might impact the cider I'm making? That combined with the "stable bottles" goal has lead me to wonder if I can stabilize the keg, then bottle, then finally age those bottles for a few months to enjoy this improved 'aged' cider.

I've been doing pretty well fermenting without off flavors. I've only gotten off flavors twice in cider, once in ice cider, which I probably just sugared up too much because now it tastes like jet fuel. The second off flavor batch is in my kegerator, I cold crashed it on the back porch when it was at the sugar level I wanted, but I think my Oregon weather wasn't steady/cold enough. I had rhino farts when racking it into the keg. It's been in the keg about a week and the rhino farts are definitely clearing.

I've noticed that the unfiltered cider-blend juice I got from Rev Nat's cidery IS better than tree top. I haven't noticed that it's SO MUCH better than tree top that it fully justifies the additional expense @ about twice as much per gallon. I can only get Nat's juice once a year too, so there's that. This is why I'm pursuing a more ideal "basic juice" cider recipe. I just want to turn tree top into the most amazing cider I can.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Thanks for the reply, I really appreciate the feedback! You seem to really know your stuff based on the other threads I've seen your work in.

Thanks. It's definitely been a learning process with failures and mistakes along the way.

The New Cider Maker's Handbook by Claude Jolicoeur is a good book about the traditional process and the book is full of useful info.

On the aging front, I see tons of posts about how apple flavor comes "right back" after a few months aging. These posts are suggesting that even a perfectly fine cider will improve with age.

It's certainly seems plausible. Maybe fermentation byproducts clean up; maybe tannins and/or yeast settle; maybe there's some benefit from micro-oxidation; maybe there's some other kind of chemical reaction occurring among the apple and fermentation compounds ("marrying" of flavors as they say in the wine world). I'm not sure and don't really have an opinion on cider aging at this point.

I think the type of cider matters. For example, low tannin white wines are not the same as high tannin red wines and don't require or benefit from aging the way the tannic dry reds do.
Similarly, I think new world (low tannin dessert apple) ciders are fundamentally different than cider from traditional bittersweet and bittersharp cider apple varieties, and they should not be treated the same.

Like I said, I have limited experience aging. The only cider batches I've had for a year weren't that great to start and didn't seem to change much. I don't notice a change in good batches over the course of a few months.
FWIW Jolicoeur recommends bottle aging for a year but doesn't explain why or for what type of cider (probably traditional high tannin).

The opinions I see on this forum all seem to vary greatly. Some people just crash it during fermentation and start drinking it within days. The sugar in sweet cider tends to cover up flaws.
Just save some bottles and take good tasting notes to see for yourself I guess.
I recommend sulfite when bottling and fresh rehydrated yeast if carbonating.

the "stable bottles" goal has lead me to wonder if I can stabilize the keg, then bottle, then finally age those bottles for a few months to enjoy this improved 'aged' cider.

FYI bottling from a keg may be tricky because sorbic acid is not very soluble at cold temperature. It needs to be mixed in at room temperature after being removed from the yeast.
Bottle conditioning (with active yeast) also helps remove oxygen from the bottles. Force carbonation loses this benefit.

once in ice cider, which I probably just sugared up too much because now it tastes like jet fuel.

You put sugar in ice cider??

 

[theinterneti]

You put sugar in ice cider??

LOL, no. What I meant to say was that I used too high a ratio of FCAJ -- 72 OZ of FCAJ and 56 oz juice for 1 gallon. I was aiming for a SG close to Pappy's recipe.

[Tannins]
What you are saying about complex interactions between tannins, aging, juice characteristics, and process is really interesting. I was reading another thread about tannins in cider a few days ago that touched on that subject a little bit, I don't think juice characteristics where mentioned. Tannins apparently take part in some delayed and complex chemical changes while fermentation is happening.

I love the basic cider I get from just US-05, nutrient and tree top. My buds and I polished off 5 gallons in ~ 10 days. It's not like we were crying out for Rev Nat's cider-blend cider which was on hand at the same time. So, maybe (for me) adding tannins would be making work (aging, buying and adding the tannins at the correct/desirable rate) for little return? Tasting guidelines suggest that tannins are added to cider not for bitterness but for astringency. Astringency doesn't seem so important to me or even the "new-world" cider style in general. However, I'm a whiskey hound and so I must try oaking some cider, at least!


[stabilization/sorbate]

FYI bottling from a keg may be tricky because sorbic acid is not very soluble at cold temperature. It needs to be mixed in at room temperature after being removed from the yeast.
Bottle conditioning (with active yeast) also helps remove oxygen from the bottles. Force carbonation loses this benefit.

Sorbic acid = potassium sorbate? I noticed that it didn't dissolve worth a damn in the cold cider. Some of the sorbate was still just sitting at the bottom and got dispensed a couple days later when I poured my first mug off the keg. 2nd time I stabilized, I did it in the primary. I guess that was wrong too? Maybe THAT'S why the batch caught rhino farts? I had been blaming my cold crash 'process' of putting the bucket on the back porch where it experienced temp swings from ~30 to ~50 degrees F.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Sorbic acid is the active part of potassium sorbate. Always fully dissolve additives in warm dechlorinated water first, and sorbate should be added to room temp cider/wine.

Maybe THAT'S why the batch caught rhino farts?

Could be.

The FT Blanc Soft from Scott Labs is definitely worth trying IMHO, at least in a dry cider.

In case you're interested... The pilot batch faux ice cider I made is phenomenal. I'm currently accumulating materials for a 6 gallon batch.
Recipe: Old Orchard FAJC diluted to ~1.140 fermented at 50-52°F with a huge pitch of R-HST (I used 8g in 1 gal).
I wasn't even expecting it to be good but boy was I wrong about that. Aged 5 months in glass primary. Bottled with sulfite.

 

[theinterneti]

Sorbic acid is the active part of potassium sorbate. Always fully dissolve additives in warm dechlorinated water first, and sorbate should be added to room temp cider/wine.

I had a buddy mix the sorbate into boiling water and he said it was dissolved. I should have warned him to mix it in very thoroughly, like jello.

The FT Blanc Soft from Scott Labs is definitely worth trying IMHO, at least in a dry cider.

Not cheap stuff. How much do you use on a 5 gal batch?

In case you're interested... The pilot batch faux ice cider I made is phenomenal. I'm currently accumulating materials for a 6 gallon batch.
Recipe: Old Orchard FAJC diluted to ~1.140 fermented at 50-52°F with a huge pitch of R-HST (I used 8g in 1 gal).
I wasn't even expecting it to be good but boy was I wrong about that. Aged 5 months in glass primary. Bottled with sulfite.

I don't have a ferm chamber and thusly ferment at 68 in the coolest part of my dining room. Not SO foreign to aging after all, are you! I started my ice cider on Oct-28 using 1118 and a double dose of nutrient. I almost certainly refrigerated it too early, about a month later. I haven't tried it in quite a while though. I might take another tipple off of it tonight.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Not cheap stuff. How much do you use on a 5 gal batch?

It's 2 bucks for 3g from MoreBeer, and greatly discounted in higher quantity.
Recommended dosage rate is 0.2-0.6 g/gal, so 3g can cover 5-15 gallons depending on the dosage.
I haven't used it very much yet but now that I have I'm sure I'll be using it a lot more.

No, I'm not entirely foreign to aging. I just don't notice a difference in any of the very few ciders I've aged. The ice cider was amazing at 2 months and equally amazing at 5 months. I still have some bottles here at 9 months that I'm saving to compare to the next batch. I don't expect it to improve over time because there's nowhere to go but down.

 

[S-Met]

Astringency doesn't seem so important to me or even the "new-world" cider style in general.

Astringency is more important than you think. It affects mouth feel and gentle astringency lends to that soft, silky/velvety sensation.

 

[theinterneti]

@S-Met I'm starting to think you may be right,

After backsweetening the last several batches with FCAJ, I left the last batch dry. Appreciably tart but I must admit, "tepid" or even "watery" are terms that come to mind. I have been splashing some pineapple or apple juice into the glass to make it more interesting. With pineapple juice it tastes passably close to two towns pacific pineapple, very good IMO.

I will start adding some form of tannin. Following RPH's advice to add it early.

 

[S-Met]

@S-Met I'm starting to think you may be right,

After backsweetening the last several batches with FCAJ, I left the last batch dry. Appreciably tart but I must admit, "tepid" or even "watery" are terms that come to mind. I have been splashing some pineapple or apple juice into the glass to make it more interesting. With pineapple juice it tastes passably close to two towns pacific pineapple, very good IMO.

I will start adding some form of tannin. Following RPH's advice to add it early.

Two towns pineapple is one of my wife's favorites. I think they are in central Oregon, worth the stop if you are passing by.

I've drank a lot of wine and talked with a lot of wine makers. One thing that they all have in common is leaving the juice on the skins to help extract tannins. While I am not motivated enough to grind my own fruit and let it sit on the skins I can appreciate adding some tannins back in to make up for what is missing. It is not perfect by any means, but just a little tweak can turn a flat cider into something much more enjoyable.

 

[theinterneti]

I think they are in central Oregon, worth the stop if you are passing by.

Yeah, somewhere near Corvallis. Fortunately for me, very close as I live in Portland. Have you been?

Your wife has excellent taste! Pacific pineapple is the first thing I order when I go to the pub now that I'm a cider convert. Also their Maid Marion is fantastic. Oregon is putting out some seriously good cider from Two towns, Rev Nat, Portland cider co. and Avid (amongst others). I haven't bought beer since sometime late last year.

Tannic powder and toasted oak added to the brew store list. This weekend I will add one of those to the batch (treetop, US-05) that's in primary right now.

Any thoughts on bringing a slight body to cider? I used to drink dark, rich, malty beers and I'd like to bring a hint of richness or thickness to my ciders. I saw that the graff megathread had both crystal malt and flaked wheat in it, is there something I could add that wouldn't require a boil?

 

[S-Met]

I like to use a little lactic acid bacteria like O. oeni and encourage malolactic conversion. However more recently, I've tried using 71b as it has some degree of malic conversion. You lose some of the tart but gives a more round feel. I also like to add the juice of 1-2 limes. Lime juice tends to bitter, especially if you squeeze it dry. Let it sit for a couple hours then add to your must.
I don't keep notes, but use about 1.5-2cups per 5gal batch. Sometimes I zest the limes and let it sit in the juice, but I always fear I'm asking for an infection.

I'll also add honey @1lb/gal. I don't think it makes it a cyser at that ratio, but not sure. You could do more honey, but that raises the abv. I don't like going over 6.5-7.5% since I usually want to enjoy more without getting too hammered.

 

[theinterneti]

Green tea update...

I'm coming out in approval of green tea as a tannin agent. 4 teabags in 5 gallons (brewed separately and dumped in before racking) had a noticeable impact for the better and no discernible bitterness. I went ahead and bumped it up to 5 bags in 5 gallons for the most recent batch.

I've yet to try any of the other listed tanninizers.

Adding the tea seemed to distinctly reduce the taste of acid/sour while lending a bit of slightly rough or velvety mouthfeel. At this point that I'm starting to see the wisdom of Grahams English recipe.

 

[theinterneti]

Touching again on the ice cider mentioned before...

The rocket fuel has totally cleared, the 1 cinnamon stick (left in, 1-gallon) added a tasty and balanced flavor. Perhaps slightly over-cinnamon, but not by much. 5 months on, it tastes akin to brandy mixed with cinnamon-apple tea. Those who initially tasted it were all shocked at how the flavor has developed, including myself.