Demystifying custom water chemistry

[TheMerkle]

I just wanted to post a quick bit about my experience venturing into custom water profiles. When I first started getting curious about it, many users made it seem like it would be very complicated, or expensive, or not worthwhile. I Just wanted to share with everyone that I believe it to be one of the biggest improvements I have made to my beer, and it couldn't be easier.

First off, the money. Admittedly you will need a few items but all are readily found and expensive, and maybe even already in your kitchen:
1.) Calcium Chloride - Avoid buying the ice melt from the hardware store. Even if they claim it to be "pure", it may not be food safe. Buy a pound (about half a lifetime supply) from the brew supply for about $5.
2.) Epsom Salt - Careful to avoid scented stuff, but otherwise free game at any grocery store or Walmart. Pennies a pound.
3.) Gypsum Salt - A bit less available then Epsom but it's common and it's cheap.
$.) A gram scale - $10 bucks will get you a nice one shipped from Amazon.

So, for under 20 bucks we've got all the supplies we will need. The last thing we need is pure Reverse Osmosis Deionized water, or RODI for short. Sounds fancy but grocery stores across the nation (Publix where I'm located) have machines (Glacier is the manufacturer in my case) out front that will load you up on this stuff for a few quarters per brewday.

Here is where it gets fun. The ions we are concerned with are Calcium, Magnesium, Sulfate, and Chloride primarily. In every case, a lack of the ion will detriment your beer, and a gross excess will harm it much more. Calcium and Magnesium aid in the health of the fermentation itself while Sulfate and Chlorides are flavor ions.

At the start of your brew day, if you'll just measure yourself out 2 grams of epsom, 3 grams of gypsum, and 4 grams of CaCl, (per 5 gallons of final batch size not per 5 gallons of RO water going in.) you will find yourself in a very healthy range of all four ions regardless of your initial premash volume. Also, you'll find yourself with a close balance between sulfates, which accentuate the hop flavor of a beer, and chlorides which help with bringing out malty flavors.

If you're brewing a style with a slight favor towards hops, add 2 more grams of gypsum. Much hoppier? 4 extra grams for a total of 6. Don't go over 6 per 5 gallons of batch size. Want a slight favor towards the malt character? 2 extra CaCl. Very malty? 4 extra CaCl for a total of 8 per 5 gallons of batch size.

It's that easy.

Now, I must admit that mash pH can complicate things a bit, but to be honest, if you're using RODI water and following these brewing salt baselines in an all grain batch, then without any extra effort at all, your mash pH will fall into an acceptable range for all but the very lightest and the very darkest of beers.

 

[55x11]

I just wanted to post a quick bit about my experience venturing into custom water profiles. When I first started getting curious about it, many users made it seem like it would be very complicated, or expensive, or not worthwhile. I Just wanted to share with everyone that I believe it to be one of the biggest improvements I have made to my beer, and it couldn't be easier.

First off, the money. Admittedly you will need a few items but all are readily found and expensive, and maybe even already in your kitchen:
1.) Calcium Chloride - Avoid buying the ice melt from the hardware store. Even if they claim it to be "pure", it may not be food safe. Buy a pound (about half a lifetime supply) from the brew supply for about $5.
2.) Epsom Salt - Careful to avoid scented stuff, but otherwise free game at any grocery store or Walmart. Pennies a pound.
3.) Gypsum Salt - A bit less available then Epsom but it's common and it's cheap.
$.) A gram scale - $10 bucks will get you a nice one shipped from Amazon.

So, for under 20 bucks we've got all the supplies we will need. The last thing we need is pure Reverse Osmosis Deionized water, or RODI for short. Sounds fancy but grocery stores across the nation (Publix where I'm located) have machines (Glacier is the manufacturer in my case) out front that will load you up on this stuff for a few quarters per brewday.

Here is where it gets fun. The ions we are concerned with are Calcium, Magnesium, Sulfate, and Chloride primarily. In every case, a lack of the ion will detriment your beer, and a gross excess will harm it much more. Calcium and Magnesium aid in the health of the fermentation itself while Sulfate and Chlorides are flavor ions.

At the start of your brew day, if you'll just measure yourself out 3 grams of epsom, 3 grams of gypsum, and 6 grams of CaCl, (per 5 gallons of batch size) you will find yourself in a very healthy range of all four ions regardless of your initial premash volume. Also, you'll find yourself with a perfect balance between sulfates, which accentuate the hop flavor of a beer, and chlorides which help with bringing out malty flavors.

If you're brewing a style with a slight favor towards hops, add 3 more grams of gypsum. Much hoppier? 6 extra grams for a total of 9. Don't go over 9 per 5 gallons of batch size. Want a slight favor towards the malt character? 3 extra CaCl. Very malty? 6 extra CaCl for a total of 12 per 5 gallons of batch size.

It's that easy.

Now, I must admit that mash pH can complicate things a bit, but to be honest, if you're using RODI water and following these brewing salt baselines in an all grain batch, then without any extra effort at all, your mash pH will fall into an acceptable range for all but the very lightest and the very darkest of beers.

I like your simplified approach to water chemistry!

I think magnesium is a bit overrated. There is plenty of magnesium needed for yeast health that comes from the grain. I wouldn't worry about it.

But to nitpick a bit, your suggested 3g/3g/6g per 5G of RO water will produce about 150 ppm of Ca, Cl and S each. That's quite a bit more than most standard profiles call for, most will involve Ca in 50-100 and Cl/S in 50-100/150 levels. Adding additional 3g+3g of Gypsum for hoppy beers, or +3g of CaCl for malty beers will push some of those numbers outside of optimal.

I would modify it a bit, by targeting about 2g of Gypsum and maybe scaling down on CaCl for hoppy light beers (IPAs) to 2g or so, rather than adding more Gypsum. That should give you about 120:55 Sulfate/Chloride ratio.

Obviously for lighter not very hoppy beers (Helles, pilsners etc.) you may want softer water than your suggestions - much less CaCl and Gypsum.

Also, for darker strong beers you may want higher alkalinity, in 80+ levels, so either carbonate additions or pH adjustments will be needed.

I think it's a good first step for people with bad water, but after the initial dive into water chemistry it may be useful to look into styles a bit more carefully and develop a few more fine-tuned water profiles.

 

[wishingiwasfishing]

I like your simplified approach to water chemistry!

I think magnesium is a bit overrated. There is plenty of magnesium needed for yeast health that comes from the grain. I wouldn't worry about it.

But to nitpick a bit, your suggested 3g/3g/6g per 5G of RO water will produce about 150 ppm of Ca, Cl and S each. That's quite a bit more than most standard profiles call for, most will involve Ca in 50-100 and Cl/S in 50-100/150 levels. Adding additional 3g+3g of Gypsum for hoppy beers, or +3g of CaCl for malty beers will push some of those numbers outside of optimal.

I would modify it a bit, by targeting about 2g of Gypsum and maybe scaling down on CaCl for hoppy light beers (IPAs) to 2g or so, rather than adding more Gypsum. That should give you about 120:55 Sulfate/Chloride ratio.

I don't intend to know exactly what the other poster meant. But I read his post as if it were intended for a final 5 gallon batch of beer, which would be different than weights per 5 gallon of water.

 

[55x11]

I don't intend to know exactly what the other poster meant. But I read his post as if it were intended for a final 5 gallon batch of beer, which would be different than weights per 5 gallon of water.

Perhaps. Needs clarifying. It's not a huge correction though. for 5G batch you may need 7-7.5G of water, usually about 4G for first infusion and 3G or so for sparging.

I like the general approach of simplifying water chemistry, but I think it is good to have maybe 3 (or 3-5) profiles - light and very hoppy (think IPA), malty medium-color beers (red ales, brown ales, etc.), dark beers (stouts/porters) and light and not very hoppy - lagers, saisons etc.

 

[TheMerkle]

The goal is not to add 2/3/4 per to of RO. It's to add 2/3/4 per 5g (or 5.5g as it were) of batch size into fermenter.

 

[TheMerkle]

I like your simplified approach to water chemistry!

I think magnesium is a bit overrated. There is plenty of magnesium needed for yeast health that comes from the grain. I wouldn't worry about it.

Even if you're of the camp that magnesium is overrated and unnecessary, it is harmless in this amount AND the Epsom is a reliable and dirt cheap source of calcium without driving up your flavor ions.

 

[TheMerkle]

Perhaps. Needs clarifying. It's not a huge correction though. for 5G batch you may need 7-7.5G of water, usually about 4G for first infusion and 3G or so for sparging.

That's right, this approach is per 5 gallons of intended final batch size, regardless of total water used. I updated my post to reflect this more clearly.

 

[TheMerkle]

I like your simplified approach to water chemistry!

But to nitpick a bit, your suggested 3g/3g/6g per 5G of RO water will produce about 150 ppm of Ca, Cl and S each. That's quite a bit more than most standard profiles call for, most will involve Ca in 50-100 and Cl/S in 50-100/150 levels. Adding additional 3g+3g of Gypsum for hoppy beers, or +3g of CaCl for malty beers will push some of those numbers outside of optimal.

I think with the numbers I used before all results would have still fallen within a safe and usable range, but I will admit that they weren't always within Palmer's ranges listed in his HowToBrew writing. I have modified my numbers slightly so that all values will coincide with Palmer's numbers and still produce the Sulfite to Chloride ratios intended without running overly high numbers on a TDS meter.

Thank you all very much for your inputs!

 

[nobadays]

I am in the "research" phase on water chemistry - making very good beer now but wanting to go to the next level. I have been using RO water (Galcier machine but will have to look to see if it is RODI) then adding my lhbs's pre-made packet of brewing salts the owner developed specifically for RO water. It has worked great but is meant to be a "middle of the road" addition so it works on all styles. Possible just what you are suggesting....

This is the simplest explanation I have seen. Obviously water chemistry is, or can be horrbly complicated as can be many other steps in the brewing process - great job simplifying it!

.....oh wait...what is that? The chemists are coming, the chemists are coming.... look out!!

Don

 

[TheMerkle]

.....oh wait...what is that? The chemists are coming, the chemists are coming.... look out!!

Don

All for the better, they have done wonders in helping me improve my beer, and I'm sure they will be able to help me improve this post. Already I have made a few modifications based on their good points.

The stuff your lhbs sells, I'd be willing to bet, is very similar to the 2/3/4 gram base I am suggesting here. It's just hard to say what the exact total dissolved solids ratings are in the event that you should want to add a little extra this or that for a hoppy style or for a malty style. This way, you will know EXACTLY what you've put in your beer.

 

[RedlegEd]

All for the better, they have done wonders in helping me improve my beer, and I'm sure they will be able to help me improve this post. Already I have made a few modifications based on their good points.

The stuff your lhbs sells, I'd be willing to bet, is very similar to the 2/3/4 gram base I am suggesting here. It's just hard to say what the exact total dissolved solids ratings are in the event that you should want to add a little extra this or that for a hoppy style or for a malty style. This way, you will know EXACTLY what you've put in your beer.

I like your approach/desire to simplify water chemistry, but the one very important thing I believe you left out is modifying mash/sparge pH. The salts you propose adding do not necessarily adjust pH to the proper range, especially if you are brewing with very lightly kilned malts that don't add much/sufficient acidity. If your mash pH is too high, you run the risk of extracting tannins and getting a harsh, astringent, bitter taste that the salt additions will not eliminate, likewise if it's too low, your beer might get sour off flavors. I recommend using a tool to help adjust your pH, such as Bru'n Water, Brewer's Friend, or Beersmith. Ed

 

[Magnus314]

Great write up. For people just starting down this part of brewing, you just saved them about 80% of the learning curve...

 

[Black Island Brewer]

I like your approach/desire to simplify water chemistry, but the one very important thing I believe you left out is modifying mash/sparge pH. The salts you propose adding do not necessarily adjust pH to the proper range, especially if you are brewing with very lightly kilned malts that don't add much/sufficient acidity. If your mash pH is too high, you run the risk of extracting tannins and getting a harsh, astringent, bitter taste that the salt additions will not eliminate, likewise if it's too low, your beer might get sour off flavors.

I think that's what the OP alluded to in his first post when he said

Now, I must admit that mash pH can complicate things a bit, but to be honest, if you're using RODI water and following these brewing salt baselines in an all grain batch, then without any extra effort at all, your mash pH will fall into an acceptable range for all but the very lightest and the very darkest of beers.

You were more eloquent, though. Do you think the 3% acidulated malt addition in AJ's pinned Water Primer post would be enough?

I recommend using a tool to help adjust your pH, such as Bru'n Water, Brewer's Friend, or Beersmith. Ed

Which is exactly what the OP is trying to avoid by making his recommendations.
I'm tempted to put the OP's numbers into a calculator and see how it pans out.

 

[RedlegEd]

You were more eloquent, though. Do you think the 3% acidulated malt addition in AJ's pinned Water Primer post would be enough?

Thanks for that. I wasn't trying to be negative, just wanted to point out that it's not always easy to simplify things. Yes, I think 3% acidulated malt (Sauermaltz) is a great way to push down the pH in really light beers. Ed

 

[TheMerkle]

Great write up. For people just starting down this part of brewing, you just saved them about 80% of the learning curve...

This is EXACTLY my goal here. I am not saying that with this information a brewer should abandon all attempt to study and further learn about water chemistry. I'm just saying that any novice can use this information to instantly be to a point of tweaking his chemistry rather than learning from scratch.

 

[Black Island Brewer]

Thanks for that. I wasn't trying to be negative, just wanted to point out that it's not always easy to simplify things. Yes, I think 3% acidulated malt (Sauermaltz) is a great way to push down the pH in really light beers. Ed

Totally agree about it not being easy so simplify it all. I love the Water Primer for that reason, but would be interested to see if this method might work too. The numbers I get with the water calculators never make much sense to me, as they all make assumptions, and can yield different suggestions - kinda like the old saw "a man with a clock knows what time it is, a man with two is never sure"

 

[RedlegEd]

Totally agree about it not being easy so simplify it all. I love the Water Primer for that reason, but would be interested to see if this method might work too. The numbers I get with the water calculators never make much sense to me, as they all make assumptions, and can yield different suggestions - kinda like the old saw "a man with a clock knows what time it is, a man with two is never sure"

I think when specifying the use of RO/RODI water, it's much easier to simplify and be predictive in generalized salt additions. In my case, I don't use RO/RODI water, rather my municipal water (for which I obtained a Ward Water report.) I use Bru'n water because it helps me make the correct additions based on my existing water profile, the grain bill, and the desired ending profile. Maybe that's where it gets complicated for some folks. @TheMerkle did a great job in laying out a good starting point, as long as beginners understand they must use RO/RODI water to get the intended results. If they use well water, city water, or even spring water, without knowing its chemistry, they're flying blind and may not get the results they want. Ed

 

[Black Island Brewer]

I think when specifying the use of RO/RODI water, it's much easier to simplify and be predictive in generalized salt additions. In my case, I don't use RO/RODI water, rather my municipal water (for which I obtained a Ward Water report.) I use Bru'n water because it helps me make the correct additions based on my existing water profile, the grain bill, and the desired ending profile. Maybe that's where it gets complicated for some folks. @TheMerkle did a great job in laying out a good starting point, as long as beginners understand they must use RO/RODI water to get the intended results. If they use well water, city water, or even spring water, without knowing its chemistry, they're flying blind and may not get the results they want. Ed

This is also why I like the Water Primer, because AJ spells out just how low the mineral content needs to be if it's NOT RO water. My municipal water is so soft, I can use the Primer, and just let the chlorine off-gas.

 

[55x11]

Even if you're of the camp that magnesium is overrated and unnecessary, it is still a reliable and dirt cheap source of calcium without driving up your flavor ions.

Ca is Ca - it does a lot more things than Mg does. Epsom Salt is MgSO4. Did you mean sulfates? I am not sure I follow how adding magnesium makes it a "cheap source of calcium".

I am of the opinion that to keep things simple you may want to focus on gypsum and CaCl. Plus acid malt for pH adjustments.

I think baking soda/chalk/salt should only be used when absolutely necessary.

Alternative - and fairly simple approach - is something along Randy Mosher approach from Mastering Homebrew. Ca should always be >50.
Bicarbonates - for hoppy beers and light beers, keep below 70, for highly dark roast, low-IBU beer go as high as 220. Everything else is in between.

Using a beersmith one can easily play with additions to your water or to RO water. Better yet, create a few profiles and tweak additions to get close to those numbers. Now it gets more complicated, but not by a lot. I think it's also good to understand some basics of WHY rather than just follow a simple recipe. That gives you more confidence in knowing what will happen if you do not hitting specific target precisely, since it's a multi-dimensional optimization problem.

So while even a simple approach goes a long way as a gateway for brewers who are new to this, I think late on going a step or two further (without going too far into the weeds) is a good idea when it comes to understanding the water chemistry.

 

[TheMerkle]

I know no one is trying to be negative, and I don't mean to sound defensive, but you should really plug these numbers into brewers friends water calc and see how well they work.

What's more is that a few grams of baking soda in the darkest beers, and a few percent acid malt in the lightest styles will fix the pH problem.

 

[New2Brew81]

Love this thread! I am thinking of doing an Octoberfest for my first AG brewing. I was gonna do 2g epsom, 2 gypsum, and 2 g calcium chloride. Does this sound right. It's for a 5.5 gallon batch. I cut back on the Calcium chloride after reading the second post.

 

[Yooper]

Love this thread! I am thinking of doing an Octoberfest for my first AG brewing. I was gonna do 2g epsom, 2 gypsum, and 2 g calcium chloride. Does this sound right. It's for a 5.5 gallon batch. I cut back on the Calcium chloride after reading the second post.

Not to me. I'd not use epsom salts OR gypsum in an Oktoberfest. Generally, you don't want the sulfates in German lagers as they sort of 'clash' with noble hops. There is no reason to use Epsom especially, as there is no reason to add either the magnesium OR the sulfate.

Calcium chloride is fine. Target a mash pH of 5.4, and use a little calcium chloride to bring some "roundness" to the flavor/mouthfeel and you should be all set.

 

[New2Brew81]

Thanks for the help. So if u just add 2 g of calcium chloride to around 9ish gallons of Water for my mash and Sparge would that be all the additive I need for R0 water? I don't have a good method for checking my pH.

 

[TheMerkle]

There are many people who believe the use of magnesium is entirely unnecessary. This isn't strictly true as it is an important mineral involved in some enzymatic processes in the beer production. That said, most grain't bills will carry all of the needed magnesium right in the grain rendering the addition of more magnesium unneeded. Furthermore, many people fear the use of magnesium as it is a powerful diuretic, and if you're not careful, very heavy use could make for some... uncomfortable situations.

Still, many brewers that I respect very much advocate the use of a small amount of magnesium ~10 mg/l, stating it can improve fermentation health and vigor. Kai Troester and John Palmer are of this camp. Since an above poster mentioned Brun Water above, it seems a good time to mention that Martin Brunswick also advocates the use of magnesium for its ability to improve yeast flocculation at concentrations around 5 mg/l though these levels LIKELY come from the grain.

TL;DR: Magnesium isn't necessary at all, and won't make the difference between good beer and great beer... but it can help so why not use it in small concentration?

 

[TheMerkle]

As for Sulfates, most brewers that have published information about the use of sulfates in building brewing water state that the MINIMUM sulfate level should be above 50 mg/l. This ion is valuable in many ways. It can sharpen the flavor of some hops, when they are used late in the boil and, in my experience, sort of blend the note that early addition bittering charges contribute into the beer.

It is also valuable in that it will combine with some of the magnesium, and more readily, the calcium to provide a slight water hardness and lowering the pH slightly. Which we want. When we are building water from scratch, the extreme softness of the water prevent acids in the grain from lowering pH as quickly as they would otherwise. Only in the very darkest of beers will our pH fall naturally into the appropriate range. With the use of Sulfates we can make it a bit easier to get our pH down in lighter beer.

Finally, when we concern ourselves with the idea of Sulfates highlighting hop flavors and chloride highlighting malt flavors, it's important to understand that these things dont happen on independently. You will get these effects depending on the ratio of sulfate to chloride. More sulfate than chloride = more hop character. More chloride than sulfate = improved malty character.

 

[TheMerkle]

As I've said above, this technique isn't going to be the IDEAL water chemistry for every beer and I encourage everyone to continue to read into water chemistry to improve it for themselves. What this baseline is meant to be is a simple technique to introduce new custom water builders to the skill without being intimidated by the difficulty of it.

It's not hard. Use my 2/3/4 baseline plus 2 gypsum for hoppy beers and plus 2 Cacl for malty beers and you will not be disappointed.

 

[The_Bishop]

That didn't really require 3 separate posts.

Also: Your 'one mineral profile fits all' approach... Doesn't. With some rare exceptions, malt forward/noble hop styles really do not benefit from sulfates. Noble hops become harsh in water containing too much sulfate.

The 'ratio' nonsense is just that... nonsense. Think about it this way: if you have 1 ppm chloride and 10 ppm sulfate in your water, that's a 10:1 ratio in favor of sulfate... Must be a huge hop bomb, right? Well, no. The amounts are so small that there'd be nearly no flavor change from water that was the opposite ratio. You're advocating a bit of 'old brewer lore' that has been debunked.

Sulfate enhances the 'dryness' or the 'sharpness' character of the beer. Chloride enhances the 'fullness' of it, gives it a rounder flavor. One doesn't cancel the other out.

Some of the info you're regurgitating is old and has been superseded or debunked, and in some cases you are giving newer brewers bad information.

 

[TheMerkle]

Like I said. This is not a "one profile fits all". This is a "This is a good starting point if you're not yet comfortable with water chemistry and looking to get your feet wet even though most of the forums will make water chemistry sound like a minefield of mistakes that will wreck your next brew beyond repair"...and I it's a good one at that.

WhIle these levels may not be perfect for every style, they are easy to remember and will get you close without hurting your beer.

 

[ajdelange]

As for Sulfates, most brewers that have published information about the use of sulfates in building brewing water state that the MINIMUM sulfate level should be above 50 mg/l.

Not so. Kunze, (author of a widely known brewing text) for example, says that the less sulfate the better in lagers. This relates to the fact that they tend to ruin the qualities of noble hops. A small amount of sulfate (20 mg/L or less perhaps) is OK but one must be very judicious.

It is also valuable in that it will combine with some of the magnesium, and more readily, the calcium to provide a slight water hardness and lowering the pH slightly. Which we want.

It does not combine with anything. Quite the opposite, when a sulfate salt is added to water it dissociates into the cation and the sulfate ion. It is the sulfate ion that does the damage (or lends the benefit depending on your point of view and personal taastes). OTOH calcium (and to a lesser extent magnesium) react with malt phosphate to release hydrogen ions. It is this which causes calcium salts, be they choride, sulfate or lactate etc., to lower mash pH.

When we are building water from scratch, the extreme softness of the water prevent acids in the grain from lowering pH as quickly as they would otherwise.

The only water related parameter that has an appreciable effect on the actions of the acids in the grains is the alkalinity of the water and how much water is used per unit of grist. it does not matter what the source of alkalinity is nor what the accompanying cation(s) is. Calcium will, as noted above, react with the malt phosphate to produce hydrogen ions which can neutralize some of the alkalinity of the water (and the malt). This is behind the concept of residual alkalinity - the part of the water's alkalinity that is not neutralized by calcium related protons.

Only in the very darkest of beers will our pH fall naturally into the appropriate range.

pH falls in the appropriate range when the protons contributed by acids in darker malts plus those from any acids we add plus those released by the calcium reaction exactly balance those absorbed by the lighter malts, the alkalinity of the water and any bases we add at the desired pH.

With the use of Sulfates we can make it a bit easier to get our pH down in lighter beer.

Calcium sulfate does have a slight pH lowering effect. But an equal amount of calcium from calcium chloride will have the same effect. In neither case is it enough to be relied on for mash pH control. Magnesium sulfate has even less of an effect and sodium sulfate would have no effect at all.

Finally, when we concern ourselves with the idea of Sulfates highlighting hop flavors and chloride highlighting malt flavors, it's important to understand that these things dont happen on independently.

It is important to understand that these things do happen independently. Sulfate and chloride represent two degrees of freedom.

This misconception is a common one and its fallacy is explained in https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=526109 which is in the Brew Science forum. Several of the other misconceptions in this post are also discussed in that forum at length. That forum could easily be renamed the Brewing Water forum with out offending many readers and probably 80 - 90% of the posts there are concerned with the things being discussed in this thread. If you really want to understand how brewing water works that forum would be a good place to start.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Think about it this way: if you have 1 ppm chloride and 10 ppm sulfate in your water, that's a 10:1 ratio in favor of sulfate... Must be a huge hop bomb, right? Well, no. The amounts are so small that there'd be nearly no flavor change from water that was the opposite ratio. You're advocating a bit of 'old brewer lore' that has been debunked.

Sulfate enhances the 'dryness' or the 'sharpness' character of the beer. Chloride enhances the 'fullness' of it, gives it a rounder flavor. One doesn't cancel the other out.

The concentration of chloride and sulfate is a very important consideration. The same 10:1 ratio can be had with 10 ppm of chloride and 100 ppm of sulfate. Targeting very high chloride and sulfate levels simultaneously is not recommended, something to keep in mind when trying to avoid harsh flavors. It has been documented that chloride levels below 50 ppm have little impact on flavor and targeting sulfate levels above 250 ppm are suitable for an IPA.

 

[The_Bishop]

I'm not saying that the concentrations of the individual minerals are not of import, I'm stating that the 'ratio' is malarkey.

 

[motosapiens]

I'm not saying that the concentrations of the individual minerals are not of import, I'm stating that the 'ratio' is malarkey.

i think the ratio makes some sense as long as you keep in mind that you need significant amounts to make a difference. I'm not sure if there is any benefit to making a beer that is high (over 100-150ppm) in BOTH salts, but there does appear to be a significant difference in 150/50 of sulfate/chloride vs 50/150. I have that exact experiment going on right now, and even in the initial stages i *believe* there is a significant taste difference. I'm going to do a blind tasting with mrs moto in a couple weeks, when both beers are bottle-conditioned and see what we think.

but yeah, if you have less than 50 or so ppm of both, I doubt the ratio is of any importance whatsoever.

 

[The_Bishop]

AJDelange addressed this far more eloquently than I ever could. The 'ratio' is irrelevant, use the mineral concentrations that help achieve the flavor/mouthfeel profile you're looking for. Trying to stick to a 'ratio' limits the degree of freedom you have in adjustment.

 

[Calaeb]

Lots to read thru, I'm excited to work through the thread. This has been one area thats been pretty intimidating as ive moved over to all grain for the past year or so. Thanks everyone for the info!

 

[ajdelange]

...but there does appear to be a significant difference in 150/50 of sulfate/chloride vs 50/150.

Of course there is but there is also a significant difference between beers made with 40/120 and 60/180. Please read the sticky.

 

[motosapiens]

Of course there is but there is also a significant difference between beers made with 40/120 and 60/180. Please read the sticky.

It's just a way to describe things, not a rigid rule. in beer terms, those are all pretty much the same ratio imho. low-ish to high-ish. Maybe I'll just use that terminology to avoid making anyone sad.

 

[ajdelange]

They are, in fact, exactly the same ratio. I fear you might be entirely missing the point.

 

[Dewfang]

Thanks this is helpful!