Delving into Water

[Jif]

Hello all,

After brewing for awhile, I've finally decided to pay attention to water. I had my water tested by Ward Labs, and here were the results:

pH 9.6
TDS 196

Sodium 23
Potassium 5
Calcium 24
Magnesium 8
Total Hardness as CaCO3 93
Nitrate 1.2
Sulfate 25
Chloride 16
Carbonate 8.5
Bicarbonate 40
Total Alkalinity 47
Phosphorus .16
Iron .01

At first blush, my problems seem to be high Sodium and high Bicarbonate.

I'm fiddling with Bru'n water, and looking to brew a rather light colored IPA, Northeast US style.

Based on the rather high pH of my water, I was intending on treating my mash/sparge water.

Are these high sodium/bicarbonate issues serious enough that I need to address them by diluting with RO/distilled water? I'm still learning and researching here, water is a tough subject to wrap your head around.

 

[FirstAidBrewing]

High Bicarboate at 40? Ha! Mine clocks in at 193 with a total hardness of 206. Your actually have pretty decent water, compared to mine anyway. I doubt you can brew a pilsner or similar light beer without RO but you can probably brew a porter with just your water (depending on recipe) and maybe even a red ale. I can only really do stouts at my levels using just my water. Although at a pH of 9.6, I imagine lactic acid will be your friend to get mash pH respectable.

I personally sparge only with distilled water out of concern for mash pH, so I'll wait for someone else to comment on sparging with your tap water.

Check out E Z Water and Brun' Water to get more exact on your treatments, but I wish I had your water, my friend. Brew on!

 

[Jif]

High Bicarboate at 40? Ha! Mine clocks in at 193 with a total hardness of 206. Your actually have pretty decent water, compared to mine anyway. I doubt you can brew a pilsner or similar light beer without RO but you can probably brew a porter with just your water (depending on recipe) and maybe even a red ale. I can only really do stouts at my levels using just my water. Although at a pH of 9.6, I imagine lactic acid will be your friend to get mash pH respectable.

I personally sparge only with distilled water out of concern for mash pH, so I'll wait for someone else to comment on sparging with your tap water.

Check out E Z Water and Brun' Water to get more exact on your treatments, but I wish I had your water, my friend. Brew on!

Thanks for the quick response! I had a feeling I'm going to playing a lot with acid soon. Especially because my goals going forward are Czech Pils and NE IPA...

Is adding acid directly the preferred method of adjusting mash pH over just using acidulated malt?

 

[mattdee1]

Thanks for the quick response! I had a feeling I'm going to playing a lot with acid soon. Especially because my goals going forward are Czech Pils and NE IPA...

Is adding acid directly the preferred method of adjusting mash pH over just using acidulated malt?

I'm in the exact same boat as you, looking to start working on water to improve my results. What I'm gathering from the experts is that, while acid malt is a nice tool, it doesn't help with sparge acidification so it's an incomplete solution for brewers stuck with higher-than-ideal alkalinity.

 

[FirstAidBrewing]

Thanks for the quick response! I had a feeling I'm going to playing a lot with acid soon. Especially because my goals going forward are Czech Pils and NE IPA...

Is adding acid directly the preferred method of adjusting mash pH over just using acidulated malt?

For my water situation, acidulated malt won't ever do enough to help without seriously altering a recipe. With acids, I can make a recipe to my taste and worry about water chemistry later.

My only suggestion to you is try both, as your water is more forgiving than mine.

 

[mabrungard]

Yes, none of the levels reported for that tap water are 'high'. That is a decent starting point for most brewing. You will still need to neutralize the alkalinity based on the beer being brewed, but that is easy with an acid addition.

If that 25 ppm sulfate value has already been multiplied by 3 to correct for the way that Ward reports that content, then your sulfate level is low. If you still need to multiply that value into its true concentration, then the water has somewhat high sulfate for some styles. But not crazy high.

 

[Jif]

Yes, none of the levels reported for that tap water are 'high'. That is a decent starting point for most brewing. You will still need to neutralize the alkalinity based on the beer being brewed, but that is easy with an acid addition.

If that 25 ppm sulfate value has already been multiplied by 3 to correct for the way that Ward reports that content, then your sulfate level is low. If you still need to multiply that value into its true concentration, then the water has somewhat high sulfate for some styles. But not crazy high.

The numbers I posted are straight off the Ward report. At 75 ppm sulfate, do I need to add additional salts to balance out the sulfate/chloride ratio? Taking my first steps here.

 

[mabrungard]

The numbers I posted are straight off the Ward report. At 75 ppm sulfate, do I need to add additional salts to balance out the sulfate/chloride ratio? Taking my first steps here.

Absolutely not!!!! Adding more chloride to improve the ratio is just adding too much mineralization. You can't correct over-mineralized water by adding more minerals. If that level is too high for the brew at hand, then its time to dilute with RO or distilled water.

 

[Jif]

Absolutely not!!!! Adding more chloride to improve the ratio is just adding too much mineralization. You can't correct over-mineralized water by adding more minerals. If that level is too high for the brew at hand, then its time to dilute with RO or distilled water.

Phew! Still learning!

Are my sulfates high enough that I need to plan on diluting down mineralization contents for doing lighter beers?

And should I plan on adding acid to lower pH just for mash water, or sparge water as well? My understanding was that the real pH concern was for mash water, but is there something to be concerned about with sparge water?

 

[FirstAidBrewing]

You want to get mash in an optimal range (5.3-5.6 from my experience) but if your sparge water is high in pH, which your tap water is, it will bring up the total pH which can lead to tannin extraction from what I have read. You really want to keep your sparge below 6, and I believe RO will not ever rise above that number. (ie no matter how much water @ 6 pH you sparge with, the total pH will never get above 6).

Additionally, you need to keep your alkalinity low during the sparge. RO water fits the bill in both cases. I will credit this knowledge to @mabrungard who has already commented on this thread.

For reference:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=267502

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=291802

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=235227

 

[The_Bishop]

Sparge water PH doesn't mean diddly.

Sparge water alkalinity, however, means much more. It can be dealt with via an acid addition.

 

[mabrungard]

Sparge water PH doesn't mean diddly.

I wouldn't go that far. As we acidify an alkaline water, its pH does drop. Its just that pH is a poor indicator of proper sparging water acidification and alkalinity reduction. I prefer to tell brewers to focus more on the resulting alkalinity of the acidified water and less on its actual pH.

 

[ajdelange]

The numbers I posted are straight off the Ward report.

They are? If I put those numbers into a spreadsheet they balance pretty well with 25 mg/L as SO4. Balance numbers are 1.9 and 2.0. What's on your report? If I enter 25 mg/L SO4 -S (i.e. 'as sulfur') which is found on most Ward Labs reports I get a pretty bad balance: 1.9/3.0.

Also, is the report fairly recent? I'm asking because they still don't get the carbonate quite right. This is not a matter of concern.

At 75 ppm sulfate, do I need to add additional salts to balance out the sulfate/chloride ratio? Taking my first steps here.

No. See https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=526109.

 

[ajdelange]

Sparge water PH doesn't mean diddly.

Sparge water alkalinity, however, means much more. It can be dealt with via an acid addition.

The acid required to reach a given pH is a weak function of its pH but a strong function of its alkalinity. The following chart illustrates this:

So pH of the source water doesn't matter much, at least between pH 7.5 and 9, but it does matter. Note that many of the popular calculators do not recognize this fact and will therefore induce errors when source pH is out of this range. The magnitude of the errors is usually not enough to be significant.

 

[Jif]

They are? If I put those numbers into a spreadsheet they balance pretty well with 25 mg/L as SO4. Balance numbers are 1.9 and 2.0. What's on your report? If I enter 25 mg/L SO4 -S (i.e. 'as sulfur') which is found on most Ward Labs reports I get a pretty bad balance: 1.9/3.0.

Also, is the report fairly recent? I'm asking because they still don't get the carbonate quite right. This is not a matter of concern.


No. See https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=526109.

My report is attached.

It was done last summer. I meant to start getting my head wrapped around water chemistry last summer, but time makes fools of us all. Finally getting around to digging my teeth into it now. Would you suggest getting my water tested again?

 

[ajdelange]

Would you suggest getting my water tested again?

No, I'd suggest that I be more careful. Left out the sodium!

 

[mabrungard]

Note that many of the popular calculators do not recognize this fact and will therefore induce errors when source pH is out of this range.

Of course, Bru'n Water does include that factor and should be reasonably accurate.

 

[Jif]

No, I'd suggest that I be more careful. Left out the sodium!

Arg! Foiled again!

I knew I remembered from looking at my report that the cation/anion ratio was close. Is this what you mean when you say it's a balanced water profile?

 

[The_Bishop]

I wouldn't go that far. As we acidify an alkaline water, its pH does drop. Its just that pH is a poor indicator of proper sparging water acidification and alkalinity reduction. I prefer to tell brewers to focus more on the resulting alkalinity of the acidified water and less on its actual pH.

Noted, thanks for the correction. My understanding is that a very low alkalinity water very easily has it's pH changed, therefore using very low/no alkalinity water as sparging water would not change the grain bed pH in any appreciable way within the parameters of a normal sparge runoff.

The acid required to reach a given pH is a weak function of its pH but a strong function of its alkalinity. The following chart illustrates this:

So pH of the source water doesn't matter much, at least between pH 7.5 and 9, but it does matter. Note that many of the popular calculators do not recognize this fact and will therefore induce errors when source pH is out of this range. The magnitude of the errors is usually not enough to be significant.

Thanks for the pointers. Looks like it's time to delve into the books again!

 

[ajdelange]

Noted, thanks for the correction.

It's not actually a correction. He's really agreeing with you. The chart tells the story. In going to pH 6 you are going to need acid of about 0.72 times the alkalinity of the water coming from any pH between 7.5 and 9. In going to pH 5.4 (mash pH) you are going to need 0.91 starting anywhere in the 7.5 to 9 range i.e. about 26% more.

My understanding is that a very low alkalinity water very easily has it's pH changed,

That's true. Again, look at the chart. Starting with water at pH between 7.5 and 9 add 0.72 times the alkalinity and you are at pH 6. Add another 0.19 times the alkalinity and you have shifted pH to 5.4. The chart is titled mEq/mEq but as ppm as CaCO3 are just 50 times mEq the ratios in ppm are the same. Thus if the alkalinity is 5 ppm it only takes 5*.72 = 3.6 ppm as CaCO3 acid to shift its pH to 6 and another 5*.19 = 0.95 to get it to 5.4. If the alkalinity is 100, however, it takes, respectively, 72 and 19 units of acid. The requirement is directly proportional to the alkalinity.

... therefore using very low/no alkalinity water as sparging water would not change the grain bed pH in any appreciable way within the parameters of a normal sparge runoff.

Also true.

 

[Jif]

I appreciate everyone chiming in here. I ordered a fun pile of things on the internet to get cracking after this. My intent at this point is to stick basically to "do what Bru'n Water tells you to do," and deal with the high pH of my mash water and the high alkalinity of my mash water through acid additions.

I also pulled a local report and they're using chloramines in my source, so I got ahold of some campden tablets as well to address that issue.

I'm hoping that without addressing the sulfate issue on a lighter, hoppy beer, that the effects aren't too large. I'm a little out of range on Bru'n Water, but nothing too bad. Next batch I'll likely start getting into RO dilution.

Lastly, I'd like the ability to keep an eye on these numbers as I go along. I've seen lots of really cheap pH meters floating around, and some that are far more expensive. What should a beginning water adjuster look for in a pH meter?

 

[ajdelange]

What should a beginning water adjuster look for in a pH meter?

In a nutshell, the approval of other home brewers. There are basically three that seem to pass muster. The Hach pH Pro+, the Milwaukee and the Omega pocket equivalent to the Hach and whose model number I can never remember.

 

[mabrungard]

AJ, it doesn't seem that any Milwaukee pH meter is reliable. The ones that do seem to be fairly reliable are the Milwaukee MW-101 and MW-102. I've seen many reports of dissatisfied users of other Milwaukee pH meters.

 

[ajdelange]

I'd seen lots of reports of problems with the 101 but several folks checked out the 102 and found it OK. I should have specifically mentioned the 102. Do they still even make the 101?

I do seem to recall noticing that they have moved their manufacturing from Romania to Italy. Perhaps that has made a difference. I never thought of them as first echelon instrument suppliers whereas Hach and Omega are (although I could suggest improvements to equipment I've bought from both).