Dead WLP007?

[boondocksaint]

I brewed an American Brown Ale (modified Surly Bender recipe) yesterday & pitched a vial of WLP007. It's been about 30 hrs now and there is zero sign of fermentation. I mean, no krausen whatsoever, no bubbles, nothing...not even any bubbles in the Star-San jug for the blow-off hose.

I bought the grains & yeast on Mon (4/21) and kept the yeast in my fridge. I pulled the vial out about 11:30-12:00 to let it come up to temp. I pitched at about 74 degrees and the closet the carboy is in is a steady 70. After checking this morning and seeing no activity I started thinking about it and recalled when I opened the vial there was no 'pffft' like when you open a soda.

Called the LHBS where I bought the grains & yeast and they said they'd replace the vial but only after a few days. So, I guess I'll give it until Mon and then have to swing by the LHBS during lunch if nothing has kicked off.

Never had this happen before and I'm just a bit worried about picking up some kind of an infection in the mean time.

Hoping for the best!

 

[mmlipps]

I'm still a pretty new brewer, on my 4th batch. I've always had violent fermentation by 24 hr point. I'm interested to hear what happens, keep is posted. Goodluck!


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[Jay_ID]

From what i have read fermentation sometimes only shows signs of actual fermentation after 48 hours, wait another 24 hours and if nothing comes of it i would probably pitch some new yeast.

But then again i am a newby so you might want someone more experienced to confirm this

 

[Bearclaw215]

If you're doing a 5 gal batch you underpitched and that could be why your getting some lag time. The best way to tell if its going is to check gravity. You're at the high end of that yeasts temp so it should get going soon if its going to, i usually get worried after 72+ hours. That warm you might want to watch your temps to avoid diacetyl unless you're shooting for some.

 

[boondocksaint]

I've always had violent fermentation by 24 hr point.

Yeah, me too. I'm used to seeing a full on rager by the 24hr mark!


"If you're doing a 5 gal batch you underpitched..."

I was really on the fence about doing a starter for this beer, as It's supposed to be right at 6.1% ABV. I didn't want to over pitch and WL claims there vials are perfect for a 5Gal batch. I seem to recall reading something about ~6+% being the demarcation line for whether or not a starter is necessary. Is there a generally accepted rule of thumb on this?

 

[Bearclaw215]

A vial thats fresh and hasn't been mishandled( I don't trust shipping to be perfect) is good for an ale at 1.048. An older vial or approaching 1.060 gravity and above a starter is recommended by both WLP and Wyeast. So the 6% rule is good for when you should be using a starter. You'll get better beer if you're pitching enough yeast tho and thats always good to have yummier beer. Give this a quick read, there's some good info http://www.mrmalty.com/starter_faq.php

Hope your having some luck by now with 007, waiting when you're used to something quick is killer.

 

[mmlipps]

A vial thats fresh and hasn't been mishandled( I don't trust shipping to be perfect) is good for an ale at 1.048. An older vial or approaching 1.060 gravity and above a starter is recommended by both WLP and Wyeast. So the 6% rule is good for when you should be using a starter. You'll get better beer if you're pitching enough yeast tho and thats always good to have yummier beer. Give this a quick read, there's some good info http://www.mrmalty.com/starter_faq.php

Hope your having some luck by now with 007, waiting when you're used to something quick is killer.

When the MrMalty calc asks for viability%, what does that mean? How donyou know what value it is?


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[Bearclaw215]

Viability is the % of living yeast cells. On average a vial or smack pack has 100 billion yeast cells. The viability goes down every day. You can get a estimate by checking the production date and see how old it is. These numbers aren't definite and are subject to all sorts of variables, but can be considered a pretty good reference point.
Production Date----Viability
Today---------------96%
1 month ago---------75%
2 months ago--------53%
3 months ago--------32%
4 months ago--------10%

 

[boondocksaint]

Okay, for an update, fermentation did finally start sometime Sun (4/27) afternoon although it's not exactly steaming. I checked the carboy again this morning and there is a krausen layer maybe 1/2" thick. I'm used to seeing a good thick layer like 2-3" inches of foamy krausen. The 'blub blub blub' of the blow off tube is fairly slow much like about day 3 of what I normally have for fermentation.

Viability is the % of living yeast cells. On average a vial or smack pack has 100 billion yeast cells. The viability goes down every day. You can get a estimate by checking the production date and see how old it is. These numbers aren't definite and are subject to all sorts of variables, but can be considered a pretty good reference point.
Production Date----Viability
Today---------------96%
1 month ago---------75%
2 months ago--------53%
3 months ago--------32%
4 months ago--------10%

Thanks, BearClaw. After looking at the above, I believe the vial I had was at about the 53% mark...I'm wondering if I'd be better off just pitching another vial? Or, maybe getting another vial and making a starter tonight & pitching it tomorrow?

I'm going to take a gravity reading tonight & see where it's at. If it's closer to OG than FG, then I'll look at pitching more yeast.

 

[Smellyglove]

Okay, for an update, fermentation did finally start sometime Sun (4/27) afternoon although it's not exactly steaming. I checked the carboy again this morning and there is a krausen layer maybe 1/2" thick. I'm used to seeing a good thick layer like 2-3" inches of foamy krausen. The 'blub blub blub' of the blow off tube is fairly slow much like about day 3 of what I normally have for fermentation.



Thanks, BearClaw. After looking at the above, I believe the vial I had was at about the 53% mark...I'm wondering if I'd be better off just pitching another vial? Or, maybe getting another vial and making a starter tonight & pitching it tomorrow?

Waht was your batch size? and OG?
If it was a 5g batch you definitely underpitched.

You should not follow the info on the WL vials, its just plain wrong in almost every situation. Always make a starter to get enough healthy yeast. As if underpitching is not enough, the yeast (unless its extremely fresh) need revitalization, to make them healty, cell-count isn't enough, you also want those cells healthy.

Even if you have enough of troops to send into combat, you probably go for the battalions with the healthy ones, not the one with grandmas

 

[philosofool]

Since you are a new brewer I will pass on the advice that proper fermentation control is the most important step to good beer besides sanitation. Look into information on yeast starters and fermentation temperature control.

That said, I would not be too worried about your beer. It will probably be good. Krausen depth isn't a major thing to look at, since it is a variable that depends on type of yeast and wort composition--until you know your recipe and yeast, visual inspection isn't a great way to judge what's happening. Lack of bubbles/slow bubbles can also come from a slight leak in the fermenter lid, if you're using a bucket.

If the fermentation activity ceases (no krausen, clarifying wort, no change in specific gravity for a few days) and the beer has not fermented completely (i.e., gravity is still high, beer is sweet), you will want to add a small starter of inexpensive dry yeast to the beer to finish it out before bottling. In my experience, adding dry yeast without a starter doesn't always do the trick, but if you put the yeast into a small starter (4 oz. DME, 1 pint water) and let it go for eight hours before pitching into your beer, it will finish the fementation within a week or so.

 

[Bearclaw215]

With fermentation started already don't bother with another vial. By now the yeast have reproduced to a point where another vial isn't adding enough to do much. In the future make yourself a starter. You can even make a stir plate for cheap in some downtime for fun. Me and my little brother made mine. It was only going to be a double but he convinced me 3 was cooler, it was even if i only use one at at time.
Read that mr. malty link for good starter and pitching tips and if you haven't checked out john palmers online book give that a look, its free btw. It may be going over some stuff you already know but you can always pick up some useful info from there.

Also id watch you fermentation temps if you can, you mentioned 70 at the beginning and thats the high end of that yeast. Id hate to see you get some off flavors if it can be avoided. The first two days of fermentation is the most important for flavor development so thats why i'm talking about it.

Hope your beer turns out good now that you're on your way!

 

[zwiller]

RDWHAH I would leave it be and not fool with it anymore. IF the yeast was stressed and threw off flavors it has already occurred and throwing more yeast at it won't help. In my experience, yeast is pretty resilient and odds are you're beer is fine.

 

[boondocksaint]

In the future make yourself a starter. You can even make a stir plate for cheap in some downtime for fun. Me and my little brother made mine. It was only going to be a double but he convinced me 3 was cooler, it was even if i only use one at at time.
Read that mr. malty link for good starter and pitching tips and if you haven't checked out john palmers online book give that a look, its free btw. It may be going over some stuff you already know but you can always pick up some useful info from there.

Also id watch you fermentation temps if you can, you mentioned 70 at the beginning and thats the high end of that yeast. Id hate to see you get some off flavors if it can be avoided. The first two days of fermentation is the most important for flavor development so thats why i'm talking about it.

I am embarrassed to admit I have a flask & stir plate, etc. Guess I was just being lazy. As a former Marine, sometimes I need to learn things the hard way!

I do appreciate the Mr Malty link and will def be spending some time there as well.

Right now, I ferment in a closet but absolutely plan to find a fridge on CL to add a Johnson controller and use as a ferm chamber. That controllability is something I am after.

Thanks all for the guidance and encouragement. Much appreciated!

 

[Bearclaw215]

In the short term if you have a spare cooler you could always throw a swamp cooler together. I've read of people having good results with them but can comment on it myself.

 

[boondocksaint]

Update. Brew day was 25Apr. Now, its 06May and I just took a gravity reading and it's at 1.020 (SG was 1.062). FG is supposed to be 1.012. Everything I read abut this yeast is how fast it ferments. So, I guess I'll check it again in a day or so and see where it's at but how long do you wait before you re-pitch?

 

[Bearclaw215]

Is that the same gravity reading you got 2-3 days in a row? If so it's most likely done and probably fermented all but unfermentable sugars and repitching probably isn't going to help. You could always try something like philosofool had mentioned and you could get lucky and get a few more gravity pts down, id be happy with .015 if your yeast is running out of steam. I've read a little bit about amylase enzyme so that may be an option, i can't comment on it since i've never used it myself but it may be worth reading up on.
If you're getting different readings let it ride for a bit longer.

Do you remember what temps you mashed and fermented at? Mash temps have a big impact on the fermentability of your brew.

 

[zwiller]

Just did a porter with 007 and FG is hovering around 1.024. My fault, I was a bit heavy handed with some crystal and mash temps... I guess I got spoiled with chico being more forgiving. In any event, the hydro sample tastes good (better than chico!) and it's not sweet or worty so I will keg and adjust my recipe for the future. In the end, FG is just a number... If it tastes good, drink it. RDWHAH

 

[boondocksaint]

Is that the same gravity reading you got 2-3 days in a row? If so it's most likely done and probably fermented all but unfermentable sugars and repitching probably isn't going to help. You could always try something like philosofool had mentioned and you could get lucky and get a few more gravity pts down, id be happy with .015 if your yeast is running out of steam. I've read a little bit about amylase enzyme so that may be an option, i can't comment on it since i've never used it myself but it may be worth reading up on.
If you're getting different readings let it ride for a bit longer.

Do you remember what temps you mashed and fermented at? Mash temps have a big impact on the fermentability of your brew.

That gravity reading was the first one I've taken since before pitching the yeast on brew day (25Apr) and I will take another reading or two tonight & tomorrow to see if there is any changes and go from there...

I'm not at all familiar with amylase enzyme but I will check it out!

As for philosofool's suggestion on the mini-starter; is there a recommended type of dry yeast? I would imagine my LHBS would have some type of English Ale yeast, assuming that's what I'm looking for. Also, if I end up going this route, should I hit it with the O2 stone again for 30 sec. or so?

My mash temps were in the 152-153 range. There is always a small bit of variation as I wrap the kettle with blankets and check every 15 min. Usually, and in this case, I find the temp drops a couple degrees and I have to re-fire the burner for a minute or so to bring it back up, re-wrap with blankets and check back in 15min... (I'm still brewing on my single vessel BIAB set up while [slowly] putting together my eHERMS Kal type set up.) Man, as I'm typing this I am remembering the frustration and am really looking forward to getting the new set up complete. I know it won't prevent me from making mistakes but the idea of consistency/repeatability is very appealing.

 

[Bearclaw215]

From what i understand its the same amylase used to naturally break down the bigger unfermentable sugars into fermentable ones, just in a convenient powdered form. I'm still doing some reading on it and getting comfortable with it. Id get cheap strong yeast since it isn't making much in the way of flavor contributions notty, maybe 1118 if you're feeling lucky. Dont hit it with o2 you'll just oxidize your brew at this point just a good starter if decide to go that way. You could always lower your mash temps a bit to get something a bit more fermentable, ~150 range.