Dead GFCI breaker?

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mongoose33

mongoose33

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Background: a few weeks back, had the 5500-watt element in my BK firing to heat cleaning water; started pumping it out, was distracted by guests, and let the element become exposed. Burned it out.

30-amp GFCI breaker popped when I tried to turn it on again; clearly shorted out the element. Ordered new one from BobbyM, I install it, submerge in water, turn on, it works! I add PBW, give it a good soak, everything is hunky-dory.

Fast forward to today: I am brewing. Fill kettle with water, plug in cord to heating element, and turn on my panel. NOTHING! I work back to the Circuit Breaker panel and voila! Tripped breaker.

trippedbreaker.jpg


So I start isolating to see what's up. I unplug my panel to isolate it; breaker won't reset, pops. I turn off all other breakers in the box, go and turn off the breaker in the main box that feeds this subpanel, then back on. I try to reset the GFCI breaker and again, won't reset, pops.

So, whatever is popping it isn't in the control panel, that's unplugged.

Is there anything here I'm missing, or is the 30-amp GFCI breaker toast?

And if it is toast, why would it have worked when I tested the new element, but now it's popping?
 
InspectorJon said:
Disconnect the wires from the breaker and try resetting it. If it resets the issue will be in the wiring or the receptacle if there is nothing plugged into the receptacle.
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Wouldn't that be the same as cutting the power to the breaker subpanel (the one in the picture) and then resetting it? When I did that, the breaker DID reset until I turned the power back on, then it popped.

FWIW, I also did this disconnecting the control panel from the circuit--the power from the breaker subpanel feeds a 4-prong receptacle into which the control panel is plugged.
 
So if the control panel is unplugged and the breaker still trips the next thing to do is disconnect the wiring to the receptacle. This is probably most easily accomplished by disconnecting the wires to the GFCI circuit breaker in the panel. You could also take the receptacle out of the box in the wall and disconnect it from the wires serving it and cap the wires. This assumes that the receptacle the control panel is connected to is the only one on the circuit.
 
Does your control panel also plug into your chiller and RIMS circuits? Could any wires have fused together inside your control panel?
 
Have you pulled your receptacle out to see what that look like? I am no electrician, please keep that in mind. Here is my thinking. You turned off power to sub panel. Reset breaker, everything is good, turned power on, breaker trips. Unplug everything from circuit, try to reset breaker, if it does not reset. Then that tells me either the wire from CB to receptacle is faulty, or the receptacle got fried.
Next thing I would try is remove the receptacle from the.box, disconnect, wire nut all the wires, then try resetting the breaker. If it does not reset then to me it would seem that the wires got fried.

The last step I would try, is to swap your heater and brew panel breakers. This will also test you wires out. If the heater breaker does not pop when attached to your brew pnl wires, then you know your breaker is bad. If the breaker pops the. You know your wire is bad.
 
InspectorJon said:
So if the control panel is unplugged and the breaker still trips the next thing to do is disconnect the wiring to the receptacle. This is probably most easily accomplished by disconnecting the wires to the GFCI circuit breaker in the panel. You could also take the receptacle out of the box in the wall and disconnect it from the wires serving it and cap the wires. This assumes that the receptacle the control panel is connected to is the only one on the circuit.
Click to expand...

Damn....this is something I should have thought of. Great idea. Easy-peasy to do. I'll do that tonite. I ordered a new circuit breaker and it's en-route already, but I'd much prefer not to have to replace it.

What I can't figure out is how, when I replaced the element and tried it out, everything worked as per normal. I turned off the controller panel, doing nothing on that circuit until yesterday when it was dead. It's as if the instant I turned off the controller panel, something went kerflooie.
 
Redpappy said:
Have you pulled your receptacle out to see what that look like? I am no electrician, please keep that in mind. Here is my thinking. You turned off power to sub panel. Reset breaker, everything is good, turned power on, breaker trips. Unplug everything from circuit, try to reset breaker, if it does not reset. Then that tells me either the wire from CB to receptacle is faulty, or the receptacle got fried.
Next thing I would try is remove the receptacle from the.box, disconnect, wire nut all the wires, then try resetting the breaker. If it does not reset then to me it would seem that the wires got fried.

The last step I would try, is to swap your heater and brew panel breakers. This will also test you wires out. If the heater breaker does not pop when attached to your brew pnl wires, then you know your breaker is bad. If the breaker pops the. You know your wire is bad.
Click to expand...

Great ideas. I looked past the idea of swapping the breakers....probably because I had GFCI on the brain. The heater breaker isn't GFCI but then, the heater hangs from the ceiling and water isn't an issue with that.
 
OK, an update--didn't get to doing these tests until tonite. First thing: open up the receptacle into which the controller panel is plugged, and see if there are loose wires, something amiss. Nothing unusual.

Second test: disconnect the load from the breaker, then turn the power back on and see if the breaker will reset. Answer? It will not. The breaker is toast.

I have another en route, supposed to show up tomorrow.

Thanks for all the help and suggestions!
 
Bohern said:
For my own info, how long has that breaker been in use?

Also do you know if you are pushing 25 to 28 amps on a regular basis?
Click to expand...

Since about September 2018. If I divide 5500 watts by 240 volts, I get just shy of 23 amps.

I just checked--I have 30 batches on that breaker. Each time I'm probably running the system for....a bit more than 2 hours, between heating strike water, heating the wort to boil (then 60 minutes), and 10 minutes or so of heating cleaning water in the BK. So call it something around....70 hours?
 
mongoose33 said:
Since about September 2018. If I divide 5500 watts by 240 volts, I get just shy of 23 amps.

I just checked--I have 30 batches on that breaker. Each time I'm probably running the system for....a bit more than 2 hours, between heating strike water, heating the wort to boil (then 60 minutes), and 10 minutes or so of heating cleaning water in the BK. So call it something around....70 hours?
Click to expand...

I asked cause I bought a 50A breaker and sometimes run two elements. I was told to be ready to replace the breaker in about 2 to 3 years. I don't run two at once often, but it is coming. Just was wondering how much wear and tear the breaker had been through.

Thanks for the response.
 
Bohern said:
I asked cause I bought a 50A breaker and sometimes run two elements. I was told to be ready to replace the breaker in about 2 to 3 years. I don't run two at once often, but it is coming. Just was wondering how much wear and tear the breaker had been through.

Thanks for the response.
Click to expand...

I suspect the breaker blew because the guy operating the system blew it. :) I was concerned at some point whether my 60-amp breaker in the main box would be able to support everything I am doing in the garage. At times, i run my ceiling-mounted garage heater--5000 watts, pulls just over 20 amps--and the boil kettle at the same time (23 amps), so it's feed about 43 amps of power at the same time. But that's about as much as I ever draw.
 
mongoose33 said:
I suspect the breaker blew because the guy operating the system blew it. :) I was concerned at some point whether my 60-amp breaker in the main box would be able to support everything I am doing in the garage. At times, i run my ceiling-mounted garage heater--5000 watts, pulls just over 20 amps--and the boil kettle at the same time (23 amps), so it's feed about 43 amps of power at the same time. But that's about as much as I ever draw.
Click to expand...
Aside from running them near maximum capacity for long lengths at time, the GFCI component may compound that issue. Regular (non-GFCI) QO breakers have been in use for at least 60-some years, used in industrial installations too. I've had one (non-GFCI) 20A or 30A double pole that started tripping erratically, even under low loads. And a 15A single pole under strong in-rush currents powering electronic flash equipment (large capacitors). I replaced that one with a 20A (12 gauge wiring was in place already) and never had an issue since.

The 80% load rule applies to breakers too, I guess?
 
Well, I'm back. The new 30-amp GFCI breaker that I installed back in April (just about 4 months ago) now won't work. Keeps popping.

What I don't understand is this: The system worked fine the last time I brewed, about 4 weeks ago. Everything fine. Had the panel on 3-4 times, never an issue.

Fast forward to today: the breaker is popped and won't reset. Same issue as what started this thread. Four months, maybe 4 brews on that breaker, and it's toast again. I did nothing with the system in between. The only "event" was a power-outage we had about 3 weeks ago for 9 hours. Can't imagine how that would have destroyed a breaker whose circuit at the time wasn't in use.

Anybody know whether this is endemic in Square-D 30-amp GFCI breakers? I'm kind of at wits end here--the first breaker I received back when I installed the system had a broken handle, the replacement went "boom" in April, and now it's gone flooey again.

I'm almost at the point where I am considering replacing the entire sub-panel with another brand as I can't keep doing this--to say nothing of being ready to brew and now I'm not.
 
mongoose33 said:
Well, I'm back. The new 30-amp GFCI breaker that I installed back in April (just about 4 months ago) now won't work. Keeps popping.
Click to expand...
Dang, so sorry to hear that!

Did you go through the same testing/isolating routines as you did before (above)?
Once you disconnected the sub panel from the main panel does it hold the reset?

Maybe those breakers aren't made that well anymore. No QC on QO. ;)

I guess you don't have warranty on it? But you could try the old swapperole trick...
 
IslandLizard said:
Dang, so sorry to hear that!

Did you go through the same testing/isolating routines as you did before (above)?
Once you disconnected the sub panel from the main panel does it hold the reset?
Click to expand...

No, that was the first thing I tried. :)

Maybe those breakers aren't made that well anymore. No QC on QO. ;)

I guess you don't have warranty on it? But you could try the old swapperole trick...
Click to expand...

They're supposed to have a limited lifetime warranty, and this time I'll follow that up--which is a good thing given their expense. What I don't understand about them is that when I remove the load (unplug the panel) you'd think it would reset, but it doesn't. It's exactly the same symptoms as last time.

Breakers, when they pop, are supposed to be able to be reset, even GFCI.

I'm going to do a little more testing but I'd bet you $100 it's the same as last time--the breaker is toast.

EDITED TO ADD: I disconnected the two load lines from the breaker and reset it. When I turned on the breaker that feeds the panel, the GFCI breaker popped again. It's toast.
 
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mongoose33 said:
Breakers, when they pop, are supposed to be able to be reset, even GFCI.

I'm going to do a little more testing but I'd bet you $100 it's the same as last time--the breaker is toast.
Click to expand...
Sounds like it. Problem with so many warranties is the claim process itself and the time lapse for getting your replacement. It can be very discouraging, on purpose of course.

I've never opened up a breaker... I really should have. But we have the internet now. There may be a little notch or pawl, preventing a spring from keeping the circuit open. And that broke off.
 
Is there any way you can see the wire from that breaker to outlet? With it being a second breaker, it makes me wonder if the wire got damaged, which is causing the the breaker to fault out.

wire has a bad spot which can ground it out, causing an extra surge to breaker and causing it to not hold amperage any more.

I am assuming you have had this set up running for awhile before the first breaker died. With the second one kicking the bucket so soon, I would be curious about the wires. Weather is the wire to the plug, or the wire from the plug to a controller panel.
 
Redpappy said:
Is there any way you can see the wire from that breaker to outlet? With it being a second breaker, it makes me wonder if the wire got damaged, which is causing the the breaker to fault out.

wire has a bad spot which can ground it out, causing an extra surge to breaker and causing it to not hold amperage any more.

I am assuming you have had this set up running for awhile before the first breaker died. With the second one kicking the bucket so soon, I would be curious about the wires. Weather is the wire to the plug, or the wire from the plug to a controller panel.
Click to expand...

Can't imagine how that could have happened, but weirder things have happened. The wire from the panel in the garage to the outlet into which I plug the panel is in a surface mount conduit/channel. I can pull the cover of that channel off and see what's inside, but I can't imagine what could have damaged the wire. It's Orange Romex wire, pretty tough stuff. But I'll check as that's about the only thing left.

Still, the breaker shouldn't go bad. Not two in a row like that.

Here are a few pics showing how it is set up:

The first pic shows the panel, and the surface conduit/channel going up from that to the ceiling, around the corner, then past an inside corner to where it starts dropping down just in the very left of the pic:

conduit1.jpg


This next one shows the conduit/channel coming down to where it terminates in a junction box into which the panel power plug is inserted. The conduit/outlet you see on the left side is a separate 20-amp circuit I use for the RIMS controller.

conduit2.jpg
 
Do you have a way to check continuity?

it is weird that two breakers fail with in such a short time, hence why I would look at the wires. However, it is possible to get a faulty breaker as well.

a few more ideas to throw your way. You seem to have a very nice simple set up.

how does the breaker look? In burn marks on the leads on the breaker? ( don’t know technical names, but the part of the breaker that connects to the hot bar on the box), how do the wires look? A few years ago I had a new ac/furnace put in, furnace was gas, I switched to electric. A few months later I ended up changing out The breaker because it was tripping. Discovered it was the wrong break that they installed. I was surprised it did not burn the house down. Wish I kept the pic I had of the breaker.
 
If you are continuing to have problems with GFCI breakers, It may be that there is current leakage in your system somewhere, and the GFCI breakers are doing their job. They are very sensitive. Continued tripping the breaker can negatively affect them as compared to a regular breaker.
IMG_1721.jpg
 
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One other thing - looking at your control panels they are right where you could be getting steam and condensation from the kettle, causing current leakage to ground. If you move the kettle farther away from the electronics, this may help.
 
mongoose33 said:
EDITED TO ADD: I disconnected the two load lines from the breaker and reset it. When I turned on the breaker that feeds the panel, the GFCI breaker popped again. It's toast.
Click to expand...

This debug link might help isolate: https://www.hunker.com/13414447/troubleshooting-ground-fault-circuit-breaker-testing ... Scroll to the What to do if the breaker won't reset and keeps tripping when turned on section.

It only takes a 5 mA leak to trip this breaker. Square-D is a reputable brand.
 
Redpappy said:
@mongoose33 if you don't mind, let us know what you figured out. It gots me curious on whats going on.
Click to expand...

I was going to but this is as good a time as any.

I had a friend who's an electrician come by yesterday to help figure this out. We isolated the bad breaker, then we hooked up the panel that runs the system to the other 30-amp breaker I have in the box (it's not GFCI, runs a ceiling heater). The system worked just as it should. We isolated the GFCI breaker and it simply doesn't reset when power is applied to it, even if the load wires are disconnected.

His conclusion is the breaker is bad, partly because, well, they shouldn't go bad like that. On the off chance it's something in my system, we'll know if the new breaker also fails. He also said it's possible that whomever is making those breakers simply could have had a bad run and that's what is happening, but no way to be sure.

I contacted Schneider Electric (who sells that breaker on Amazon). The breaker has a limited lifetime warranty and I should be able to get it replaced. Schneider, after a couple of times passing me along to someone else, said that I needed to contact the distributor (Amazon) and they would have to deal with it--but the Schneider person said they'd opened a file and gave me a case number on it.

So I contacted Amazon by email last night explaining this; it's been over 24 hours and I do not have a reply to this point.
 
mongoose33 said:
Schneider Electric
Click to expand...
Square-D seems to be a Schneider Electric product line as in they own it and are the manufacturer. They (Schneider) should be interested in what went wrong with their product. Yes, you have to go through Amazon as the distributor for the return/replacement- always a hassle when something goes wrong. I've been able contact Amazon by phone a time or two and gotten quick response.

You went to a lot of trouble diagnosing a bad product. I'd approach it as a bit irate and demanding to know what went wrong with the circuit breaker, as in Schneider Electric should want to perform failure analysis and let you know the result. Their (Schneider's) website says Square-D is the gold standard. Maybe what you got was a good counterfeit; it could have an intrinsic design flaw; there could be a manufacturing process issue; contamination; corrosion; materials issues; or who knows what. You've had two of these fail. You're very likely not the only one, and an exact replacement may have the same problem.
 
thefigure5 said:
Square-D seems to be a Schneider Electric product line as in they own it and are the manufacturer. They (Schneider) should be interested in what went wrong with their product. Yes, you have to go through Amazon as the distributor for the return/replacement- always a hassle when something goes wrong. I've been able contact Amazon by phone a time or two and gotten quick response.

You went to a lot of trouble diagnosing a bad product. I'd approach it as a bit irate and demanding to know what went wrong with the circuit breaker, as in Schneider Electric should want to perform failure analysis and let you know the result. Their (Schneider's) website says Square-D is the gold standard. Maybe what you got was a good counterfeit; it could have an intrinsic design flaw; there could be a manufacturing process issue; contamination; corrosion; materials issues; or who knows what. You've had two of these fail. You're very likely not the only one, and an exact replacement may have the same problem.
Click to expand...

Decided yesterday to follow up with Amazon, since I was on Day 3 of requesting a warranty replacement and no response.

After maneuvering through several self-referential loops that kept taking me back to my starting point, I finally got to a point where I could talk to Amazon via phone, and just getting to that point is a huge exercise in patience and exploration.

I spoke with someone who was in a bullpen of similar customer service reps. Bad background noise, and while I don't usually have difficulty with people with accents, between that and the noise....but I digress.

He said he'd contact Schneider Electric and work out a solution. Within about 2 hours I had an email from Schneider Electric saying they'd refund my money. So, pretty quick resolution once I spoke with them on the phone.

************​

So I ordered another breaker and Amazon says it'll be delivered Saturday--which works out perfectly as I could do a brew day Sunday. Except....that wasn't true. After I ordered it, I checked on the timeline and it's expected to be delivered sometime on Sunday.

I don't know if Amazon is just having difficulty with the increase in business due to Covid19 or what, but I've reached a point where I'm wishing they had some good competition. Can't get a warranty claim response from them, almost impossible to find a way to talk to a CS rep, the delivery times aren't reliable....I have Prime membership but no longer seems to be very Prime.

Thank you to all who offered up ideas and suggestions in this thread. Another reason why HBT is such a tremendous resource!
 

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