De Ranke XX Bitter question

[hodge]

Does anyone have ideas on how to nail this one down?

Scouring the internet hasn't brought me any closer to finding a clone for this beer. It's one of my favorites and I plan on using harvested yeast from the bottle although I'm not sure if it is the primary yeast or not. What I have gathered:

Hops: Brewer's Gold, Hallertauer

Malt: Belgian Pilsner

Yeast:???


Anyone have any ideas on a recipe?

 

[ocluke]

*Bump*

I would like this recipe as well. I hear there are some details in Michael Jackson's book, "Great Beers of Belgium," but no recipe.

 

[D0ug]

I got to try this one last night, what a great and unique beer. I am VERY interested in trying to clone this one as well.

Any leads?

 

[Belpaire]

I just kegged my first clone attempt at this beer a few days ago. I haven't done a side by side bit it seems relatively close. It is missing the graininess of the original.

Here's my first go at a clone recipe. This if for 6 gallons at the end of the boil, and a target OG of 1.062. IBU's are calculated at 62.

12.49 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 94.98 %
2.00 oz Brewer's Gold [6.20 %] (90 min) Hops 36.7 IBU
0.50 oz Hallertauer [3.00 %] (60 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops 4.6 IBU
1.00 oz Brewer's Gold [6.20 %] (30 min) Hops 13.2 IBU
1.00 oz Hallertauer [3.00 %] (20 min) Hops 5.0 IBU
0.25 oz Brewer's Gold [6.20 %] (2 min) Hops 0.4 IBU
2.00 oz Hallertauer [3.00 %] (2 min) Hops 1.4 IBU
0.66 lb Sugar, Table (Sucrose) (1.0 SRM) Sugar 5.02 %

Mashed at 147°. 3522 for yeast.

 

[D0ug]

Looks like it has potential.

How was the hop character compared to the original? I've been seeing some articles about late hop additions/ whirlpool hop additions and was wondering if that might be a technique they use to get that really bright, floral character to their hops.

Any thoughts?

 

[Belpaire]

There was no thought that this would be an exact clone but I wanted something to get close enough to start tweaking.

From my recollection, the hops are pretty close in flavor. It has been a while since I had the original. I'm planning to do a side by side in a week or two so I can formulate what changes I'm going to make. I also plan on trying to reculture the yeast from the bottle, although the 3522 did exactly what I wanted it to. It finished at 1.006, so the OG should brought down a little.

The fairly large, for a Belgium, 2 minute hop addition is my attempt to get that real hop flavor, with the middle addition to give it some depth.

 

[hodge]

There was no thought that this would be an exact clone but I wanted something to get close enough to start tweaking.

From my recollection, the hops are pretty close in flavor. It has been a while since I had the original. I'm planning to do a side by side in a week or two so I can formulate what changes I'm going to make. I also plan on trying to reculture the yeast from the bottle, although the 3522 did exactly what I wanted it to. It finished at 1.006, so the OG should brought down a little.

The fairly large, for a Belgium, 2 minute hop addition is my attempt to get that real hop flavor, with the middle addition to give it some depth.

Belpaire, I've been following your thread on BBB as well. I'm so glad you decided to give this a try and post, thank you.

I'm curious as to your choice of yeast. I know that someone has posted that it is the T-58 yeast and that you had toyed with the idea of using 05. If you would, could you explain your thoughts that got you to 3522?

Also, I know that Brett doesn't seem to be in the beer anymore, but, what are your thoughts about eliminating the sugar addition and pitching brett into the secondary to drop it down to a lower FG?

I think that you're correct in putting a lot of hops in the late additions, although I've been wondering what a large dose of Brewer's Gold hops
at flameout would be like. I've never used those hops before.

I've got a culture from a 2009 bottle that has been in a mason jar in my fridge for a few months. I have no idea what kind of yeast are left in there, although someone on another message board did say that using the bottle culture did give him what he expected (not sure what he meant) in a pale ale.

I'd love to keep this thread going so we can get a half-way decent clone. Thanks again for posting.

 

[Belpaire]

Hodge,
I've been pulling together bits of information on this beer where ever I can find it.

There are several references to De Ranke using dry yeast, likely T-58, since they stopped using the Rodenbach yeast. I've never used T-58 but all of the descriptions I've read of it don't describe what I am tasting in the XX Bitter. It is also not known as a very attenuative yeast and XX Bitter is very dry and I don't believe uses a high percentage of sugar. Also, as you saw on the BBB and is also mentioned on their brewing blog, Upright Brewing has had Wyeast culture De Ranke yeast from a bottle. I don't think Wyeast and Upright would go through the trouble of culturing yeast that they believe is T-58.

I contacted Wyeast but never got a reply regarding this yeast so I decided to find a substitute. The 3522 fit the bill with subdued esters and fairly high attenuation without leaving a thin body. I did ferment it in the low 60's for the first few days and slowly raised it up to 78° to finish. The reference to 05 was more of a joke as to the yeast flavor contribution being pretty subtle.

I read the same post about the cultured De Ranke yeast working in a BPA so I figure I will give it a try. If it doesn't work as planned I will stick with the Ardennes.

I used a fair amount of Brewers Gold in a recipe last year. In late additions it gives an almost mango like flavor which I don't pick up on in the XX Bitter, which is why I decided to keep it mostly Hallertauer towards the end of the boil.

After the side by side comparison, I'll let you know what I would change. It will be 2 month old beer vs. 13 month old but should still help point the way.

 

[ocluke]

I'm interested in hearing how your side by side tasting goes. Obviously, a 13 month old beer known for its aroma hop characteristics is going to fall short of what it was, but you might be able to get a hint of what was there a year before.

 

[hodge]

Thinking about yeast... what about this?

Wyeast 3725 PC

Beer Styles: Saison, Biere de Garde, Belgian Blonde Ale, Belgian Pale Ale, Belgian Golden Strong Ale
Profile: Low to moderate ester production with subtle spiciness. Malty and full on the palate with initial sweetness. Finishes dry and slightly tart. Ferments well with no sluggishness.
Alc. Tolerance 12% ABV
Flocculation low
Attenuation 74-79%
Temp. Range 70-84°F (21-29°C)

I may give this a try.

 

[Belpaire]

The 3725 is Fantome yeast and since Fantome is known for thier saisons, it may not be the best choice for XX Bitter. It was also the private collection yeast for Q1 2011, so you will likely not find any fresh packs around.

 

[Lennie]

Maybe try the Bastogne yeast? It gives a milder spicy Belgian character than some of the Trappist yeasts.

 

[hodge]

The 3725 is Fantome yeast and since Fantome is known for thier saisons, it may not be the best choice for XX Bitter. It was also the private collection yeast for Q1 2011, so you will likely not find any fresh packs around.

It just was re-released in this quarter's private collection. I don't know, while I haven't had Fantome myself, it sounds like whatever wyeast isolated isn't all that over the top. I did a little poking around on this site and people are claiming that it is a surprisingly neutral yeast. My concern is that it might be little too sweet for XX based on the wyeast description (although it says it finishes dry).

Don't know, the yeast is the bugger on this one. Maybe bottle harvest is the only way to go.

 

[Belpaire]

It just was re-released in this quarter's private collection. I don't know, while I haven't had Fantome myself, it sounds like whatever wyeast isolated isn't all that over the top. I did a little poking around on this site and people are claiming that it is a surprisingly neutral yeast. My concern is that it might be little too sweet for XX based on the wyeast description (although it says it finishes dry).

Don't know, the yeast is the bugger on this one. Maybe bottle harvest is the only way to go.

I hadn't read up on the 3725, obviously. Didn't mean to spread bad info. Makes sense with what Wyeast's says about it. The sweet but dry description is confusing.

I still haven't done the side by side, mostly because I want to tryu culturing the yeast, but the 3522 did work quite well for what I wanted.

 

[Belpaire]

I finally sat down and did a side by side. Here's a quick comparison

The real thing is lighter in color and not overly carbonated. I had the mind set of most belgian beers and had the co2 too high.

Their aroma is significantly more hoppy and has virtually no Belgian qualities to it. Mine you get a slight sense of the yeast.

The XX Bitter starts off with a quick flash of sweet that gives way to high levels of hoppiness then to the significant bitterness. There is a slight belgian yeast quality but its barely there.

Mine starts off sweeter with more malt character. While drank on its own I would consider mine hoppy but it pales in comparison to the De Ranke product. Mine has is slightly less bitter in the aftertaste. The belgian yeast flavor also shines through more. Mine also has more mouth feel. I had also overshot my OG and underestimated my FG so I am 1% higher in alcohol, which gives a quick flash of alcohol presence.

While I was at it, it took a refractometer reading. Assuming their stated 6.2% abv is correct, their SG is 1.056 and FG is 1.008 for a AA of 86%.

With this in mind, I am going to lower my OG, up the percentage of sugar to 10%, double the amount of 2 minute hops and up the IBU's to 70. Hopefully my yeast culturing is successful, but if not, I would still stick with the 3522. Fermented at the cold end of its range keeps the esters in check, and more hops will certainly help mask its flavor contribution.

As for the graininess, I have read that De Ranke uses Castle for their malt. Looking it the Castle website shows that they produce both 2 row and 6 row pilsner malt. I am wondering if De Ranke uses 6 row to get the graininess. The only problem is that I can't find a distributor in the states that lists the 6 row pils.

 

[ocluke]

I finally sat down and did a side by side. Here's a quick comparison

The real thing is lighter in color and not overly carbonated. I had the mind set of most belgian beers and had the co2 too high.

Their aroma is significantly more hoppy and has virtually no Belgian qualities to it. Mine you get a slight sense of the yeast.

The XX Bitter starts off with a quick flash of sweet that gives way to high levels of hoppiness then to the significant bitterness. There is a slight belgian yeast quality but its barely there.

Mine starts off sweeter with more malt character. While drank on its own I would consider mine hoppy but it pales in comparison to the De Ranke product. Mine has is slightly less bitter in the aftertaste. The belgian yeast flavor also shines through more. Mine also has more mouth feel. I had also overshot my OG and underestimated my FG so I am 1% higher in alcohol, which gives a quick flash of alcohol presence.

While I was at it, it took a refractometer reading. Assuming their stated 6.2% abv is correct, their SG is 1.056 and FG is 1.008 for a AA of 86%.

With this in mind, I am going to lower my OG, up the percentage of sugar to 10%, double the amount of 2 minute hops and up the IBU's to 70. Hopefully my yeast culturing is successful, but if not, I would still stick with the 3522. Fermented at the cold end of its range keeps the esters in check, and more hops will certainly help mask its flavor contribution.

As for the graininess, I have read that De Ranke uses Castle for their malt. Looking it the Castle website shows that they produce both 2 row and 6 row pilsner malt. I am wondering if De Ranke uses 6 row to get the graininess. The only problem is that I can't find a distributor in the states that lists the 6 row pils.

This was a very helpful review and update. Thank you. I plan to attempt this beer later in the summer, so if you do another round, it would be great to hear back on the findings. Most of the De Ranke we get here in the states is quite old by the time it reaches us. I'm assuming the hop profile is even more pronounced before it gets on a boat and ships thousands of miles.

 

[hodge]

I finally sat down and did a side by side. Here's a quick comparison

The real thing is lighter in color and not overly carbonated. I had the mind set of most belgian beers and had the co2 too high.

Their aroma is significantly more hoppy and has virtually no Belgian qualities to it. Mine you get a slight sense of the yeast.

The XX Bitter starts off with a quick flash of sweet that gives way to high levels of hoppiness then to the significant bitterness. There is a slight belgian yeast quality but its barely there.

Mine starts off sweeter with more malt character. While drank on its own I would consider mine hoppy but it pales in comparison to the De Ranke product. Mine has is slightly less bitter in the aftertaste. The belgian yeast flavor also shines through more. Mine also has more mouth feel. I had also overshot my OG and underestimated my FG so I am 1% higher in alcohol, which gives a quick flash of alcohol presence.

While I was at it, it took a refractometer reading. Assuming their stated 6.2% abv is correct, their SG is 1.056 and FG is 1.008 for a AA of 86%.

With this in mind, I am going to lower my OG, up the percentage of sugar to 10%, double the amount of 2 minute hops and up the IBU's to 70. Hopefully my yeast culturing is successful, but if not, I would still stick with the 3522. Fermented at the cold end of its range keeps the esters in check, and more hops will certainly help mask its flavor contribution.

As for the graininess, I have read that De Ranke uses Castle for their malt. Looking it the Castle website shows that they produce both 2 row and 6 row pilsner malt. I am wondering if De Ranke uses 6 row to get the graininess. The only problem is that I can't find a distributor in the states that lists the 6 row pils.

Belpaire, thanks for taking the time to report this. I think I'm going to use your recipe with your sugar and hop tweaks in one of my next two brews.

I'm not sure if it's related, but the last bottle that I had of XX the beer poured a little hazy. Could this be an indicator of 6 row?

 

[Belpaire]

ocluke,
I can't imagine how hoppy a fresh bottle of XX Bitter would be if a 13 month old bottle is as hoppy as it is. I do plan to do another round at some point and will post the results.

hodge,
Definately let us know if you brew this. If you use the 3522, keep in mind I did a 147° overnight mash and got 90.3% AA. With the additional sugar and a lower desired AA, you might want to mash a couple degrees higher.

I had meant to mention the haziness. This last bottle was also quite hazy and had spent 2 months at 33°, so I believe chill haze would have cleared out if that was the problem. I think it is quite possible they are doing a single temp mash with 6 row pils.

 

[hodge]

I had meant to mention the haziness. This last bottle was also quite hazy and had spent 2 months at 33°, so I believe chill haze would have cleared out if that was the problem. I think it is quite possible they are doing a single temp mash with 6 row pils.

I'd really like to pick your brain about brewing with 6-row and it's effects on a beer. I've never brewed with it and the only time I've really ever encountered it has been in discussion about it's use in american lager/adjunct brewing.

Do you mean that you would use 100% 6-row? Have you brewed something "belgian" with 6-row before?

 

[Belpaire]

I'd really like to pick your brain about brewing with 6-row and it's effects on a beer. I've never brewed with it and the only time I've really ever encountered it has been in discussion about it's use in american lager/adjunct brewing.

Do you mean that you would use 100% 6-row? Have you brewed something "belgian" with 6-row before?

I have used 6 row in the past but just for adjunct beers, where its contribution is not very perceptible.

I've not brewed a belgian with 6 row, but I don't think I've tasted any belgians that have the mild graininess of the XX Bitter. According to Markowski's Farmhouse Ale book, saisons were traditionally brewed with 6 row winter barley, so there is some precedent, not that there needs to be.

The ideal would be to find 6 row pilsner malt for this beer but after some searching online it does not appear to be listed on any US distributors web sites. Barring that, I don't see that using US 6 row would be a major difference. The lovibond rating is nearly identical.

I have some 6 row, so my next attempt at this beer will be a small batch using that.

 

[Belpaire]

Just a quick follow up.

The yeast culturing worked and I got a nice pitch of healthy yeast. I tasted a decanted sample and I'm going to say that De Ranke does not use a separate bottling yeast. The sample was dry with restrained Belgian qualities and a 80%+ attenuation rate using DME. It is also somewhat shockingly flocculant, getting almost chunky yeast on the bottom not unlike an English ale yeast.

I made further recipe changes including a 60 minute hop stand at 170° to try to really amp up the hoppyness. I kept the ferment at 64° because that is what De Ranke says on their website but I am going to raise it now as activity has slowed down.

 

[hodge]

Thanks for the follow up, I too will be brewing this with harvested yeast this weekend although I'm going to use strisselspalt instead of hallertauer in my 60 min/20 min additions. I only have enough hallertauer for a big dose at the end.

I've got a slurry from last September that I'm going to try to coax back to life, so we'll see if I get anything out of it.

So, a hopstand is just turning off the flame and keeping it at a certain temp, such as 170, for a set period of time? Will isomerization continue? If so, how do you adjust your recipe?

 

[Belpaire]

The late addition is definately where you want the hallertau.

The yeast is funny. I warmed it from 64 to 66 and all the flocculated yeast woke up and started working again. It is now bubbling away at 70 from its own heat only. I would say 65-66 would be a minimum temperature.

Typically when I do a hop stand I just throw them in at flameout and let them sit. It's tough to determine the bittering effect but in my house IPA I don't really worry about it.

For this beer I threw them in at flameout and immediately dropped the temp to 170. The reason was more due to my fear of DMS from the lightly kilned malts than additional bittering but the 170 should have reduced both concerns. I made no effort to keep the temp at 170 but figured that 6.5 gallons covered isn't going to cool off very quickly.

BTW, I went with a 50/40/10 ratio of Pilsner/6 row/sugar, although at the last minute I dropped the sugar to 5% due to higher than expected efficiency and seeing that this yeast is pretty attenuative.

Let us know how your brew goes.

 

[hodge]

Brewed this yesterday, 80% Pils, 10% Pale, 10% Sugar. Pitched a starter of harvested yeast into 1.056 OG wort @ 64 deg.

Woke up this morning to find a nice krausen.

Side note, did not strain or filter out any hops into the primary. It's amazing how much trub I'm going to get with this one.

Can't wait to see what happens and work from there. BP, thanks for all the help you've provided on this thread!

 

[Belpaire]

hodge,
Don't thank me yet, you haven't tasted the finished product. Although, on a whim I entered my first attempt as a Belgian IPA in a local competition and got a 2nd out of 35 entries in the category.

I didn't filter the hops out either and probably have a gallons worth of hop mass at the bottom of the fermentor.

I took a gravity reading on mine the other day, it went from 1.060 (overshot again), to 1.010 and I wouldn't doubt it may go down another point or two. There was still suspended yeast but the hoppyness was not as aggressive as I had wanted. Hopefully it comes through as the yeast drops out.

Keep us informed on the progress.

 

[Belpaire]

With the beer fully ready to drink I did a side by side between my second attempt and the real thing. Mine was 2 months old vs a 10 month old DeRanke.

First, here is the recipe that I brewed:
6.61 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 52.01 %
5.42 lb Pale Malt (6 Row) US (1.7 SRM) Grain 42.63 %
3.47 oz Brewer's Gold [6.20 %] (90 min) Hops 74.0 IBU
4.33 oz Hallertauer [3.00 %] (60 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops -
0.54 oz Hallertauer [3.00 %] (60 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops 6.2 IBU
1.08 oz Hallertauer [3.00 %] (10 min) Hops 2.2 IBU
0.68 lb Sugar, Table (Sucrose) (1.0 SRM) Sugar 5.35 %
Recultered DeRanke yeast.


Here's a quick rundown of what I found. I bottle conditioned this time and wound up being slightly undercarbed.

The basic flavors are getting really close and the yeast derived flavors were nearly identical. Here's where they differed.

Mine is:
Darker
Clearer
Slightly more aroma
Less refined aroma
Less bitter
Less body and residual sweetness

I have no plans to brew this right away again, but for my third attempt I will:
Go back to 100% Pils malt
Use no sugar but aim for the same OG
Mash slightly higher, probably 149-150°
Add another oz of Hallertauer at 20 mins
Cut back the whirlpool addition to 4oz
Not use Whirlfloc

It's starting to get close, I would say this one is about 80% cloned.