Cream corn DMS off flavor, All Grain

[Croyzen]

My last two light batches, recipes here, (haus pale ale, centennial blonde) have an off putting DMS/cream corn, burnt corn, bite in the nose and taste. At least this is what I think it is. Yeast bite maybe? The haus pale ale turned out lighter than I thought and actually the two beers taste virtually the same with the haus pale ale being slightly more bitter. Both with the same nasty amateur prison quality flavor. Classic homebrew "quality." Both beers taste VERY similar. Both use the same yeast.

Details;

* Water, carbon filtered and treated with correct amount of campden.
* Mash (pale ale) 153F for 60 minutes (blonde) 150F for 90 minutes.
* Boil (pale ale) 60 minutes (blonde) ~80-90 minutes
* Cooled with IC in about 15 minutes each.
* Both used Nottingham dry, rehydrated according to packet instructions.
* Both fermented @ 62-64 for 4 days and then temp raised to 68F for about 14 days then racked off and bottled.
* Both have been in the bottle for at least a month.
* The flavor is not getting worse but has seemed to settle in. Both are at "correct" carbonation levels, with the blonde losing most of the head during drinking. The pale ale head sticks around and laces although both heads are thin after settling in.

I haven't had a complete workup of my water but I know that it's hard. The batch before these two, a Bell's Two Hearted Clone, has no DMS I can detect and actually came out pretty good.

 

[eluterio]

You sure that it is DMS? I thought the same on several of my blondes and Im thinking it my yeast that Im using production this horrible corn like aroma. I switch yeast from 1098 to WLP001 ive used 1098 for 8 different blondes changing specialty grains but using the same 2 row. I did a 4 batch experiment and each had basically the same results. This is when I decided to use a different yeast strain.

 

[Spartan1979]

Are you boiling with the lid off?

 

[Yooper]

How was your boil? Rolling boil with the lid off with at least 1 gallon per hour boiled off? How was your chilling? Quick chilling with the lid off?

If it's not DMS, it could be your water. Did you use tap water? Any idea what your water is made up of?

 

[eluterio]

Not to hijack thread but I use RO water and my boil is booming with lid off. I still had issues with dms or what I thought was dms.


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[Yooper]

Not to hijack thread but I use RO water and my boil is booming with lid off. I still had issues with dms or what I thought was dms.


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If that is the case, a good long rolling boil with the lid off, and you still get DMS, look at your chilling process. During a slow chilling, DMS can still form and if the pot is covered, it will be "locked in" to the beer. If that's not the case, either, then it's likely not DMS from this source but perhaps infection or another source.

Are you certain it's DMS?

 

[eluterio]

No I'm not sure it's dms. I purchase a larger ic that cut my time down by 30 mins. I'm thinking mine is yeast issue.



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[Croyzen]

No. I'm boiling with the lid on. Is this bad? Just kidding

Some more details. I make 3.2-ish gallon (final volume) batches using a 5.5 gallon stainless pot on an electric ceramic stove top. Recipes are scaled using beersmith. No top up water, full boils. The pot gets filled to somewhere in the 4.6-4.8 gallon range close to the top. I lose about .75 - 1 gallon in the hour and the boil is not vigorous as in jumping out of the pot, but it is rolling. The last batch (not related to these two, Denny's rye IPA) I wrapped the pot in reflectix insulation and the boil was a little better but what I noticed more is I boiled off more at the end of the hour. It was an IPA though and I've had nice luck hoppy and/or darker beers.

The chilling process, I used a copper IC and have it cooled down to about 62-64 degrees in 15 minutes on both batches. Nottingham was used on both batches, rehydrated, and pitched into 62-64F wort. I always cool the wort down as quickly as possible to at or slightly below yeast pitching temps.

I did not notice this flavor during the hydrometer sample on brew day, or from the 6 or so ounces I drank of each one on bottling day. I remember thinking how good the blonde was going to taste. It really settled in as it aged in the bottle. I'm saying this is cream corn/burnt corn because I don't know what else to call the off flavor. It's in the nose/taste and shouldn't be there that I know for sure. I probably need someone that knows their off flavors to taste it for sure.

I have also been suspecting an issue going into the bottle so as a precaution I bought a new racking cane and tubing for this next batch. So far on these two batches, both bottled over a month ago, there is no excessive carbonation developing. I sanitize using Star San at usually mix up 2 gallons on brew day and mix fresh on bottling day. Everything cold side is always cleaned well, taken apart, sanitized, and used while still wet (carboys, bottling bucket, bottles, etc)

As far as my water, I have tested it with a hardware store kit for PH but I don't know much about it other than it's most likely pretty hard. I simply carbon filter the water and treat as it's heating with about 1/2 of a crushed campden tablet divided into my total water volume which is normally in the 6 gallon range. I sample my brewing water and to me it tastes a little salty.

Anything from the experts on this one? At this point I'm a little suspect of my racking cane/tubing but that's all I got.

 

[Yooper]

I can't believe I'm offering this, and I may take it back later, but I'm a certified BJCP judge and if you can't find anyone locally, I could taste your beer if you UPS me a bottle and see if it tastes like DMS or a water chemistry issue.

I am leaning more toward water chemistry issues (salty is a big red flag and so is "hard") and would suggest trying one batch with 100% RO (reverse osmosis) water from the "water machine" at a grocery store or Wal-Mart to see if that fixes it. It should.

You do want to boil off about 1-1.25 gallons per hour, so I'd encourage you to keep working on that. Otherwise, your process doesn't seem to favor DMS at all.

(Please, everyone, do NOT send me bad beer- this is a one time deal! )

 

[rynoryan]

Not trying to hijack here either but a quick question. I'm new to all grain and trying to learn from others mistakes to prevent my own. What does DMS taste like?


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[Yooper]

Not trying to hijack here either but a quick question. I'm new to all grain and trying to learn from others mistakes to prevent my own. What does DMS taste like?


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The classic tell-tale sign is a vegetal flavor. In smaller amounts, it can taste like creamed corn. In larger amounts, it's stronger and can be more like cooked cabbage.

There is a commercial beer noted for DMS- Rolling Rock. If you taste a Rolling Rock, it's very vegetal. Lots of people like it, as they like Rolling Rock, but it is considered a flaw in a well-made beer.

 

[rynoryan]

The classic tell-tale sign is a vegetal flavor. In smaller amounts, it can taste like creamed corn. In larger amounts, it's stronger and can be more like cooked cabbage.



There is a commercial beer noted for DMS- Rolling Rock. If you taste a Rolling Rock, it's very vegetal. Lots of people like it, as they like Rolling Rock, but it is considered a flaw in a well-made beer.

Awesome. This is good to know. Thank you so much.


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[eluterio]

The classic tell-tale sign is a vegetal flavor. In smaller amounts, it can taste like creamed corn. In larger amounts, it's stronger and can be more like cooked cabbage.

There is a commercial beer noted for DMS- Rolling Rock. If you taste a Rolling Rock, it's very vegetal. Lots of people like it, as they like Rolling Rock, but it is considered a flaw in a well-made beer.

Looks like ill be buying some rolling rock soon. Does it matter if its in a can vs a bottle? I know with the green bottle it can have a skunky aroma due to oxidation.

 

[Yooper]

Looks like ill be buying some rolling rock soon. Does it matter if its in a can vs a bottle? I know with the green bottle it can have a skunky aroma due to oxidation.

It's been a long time since I've had rolling Rock, but I'd assume that you'd get DMS in both bottles and cans.

As far as "skunky", that's from light striking a green bottle. It's not oxidation - it's light.

 

[hophop]

Are you allowing enough time for the campden tablet to off gas? It may impede on the yeasts performance and volatility, which in turn may cause off flavors from unhealthy or under pitched yeast. Just a thought.


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[Croyzen]

I'm using less than 1/2 of a 550mg finely crushed tablet added to about 6 gallons. 1/2 of that added while strike water is heating, the other 1/2 added while the sparge water is heating. Considering 1 tablet treats about 20 gallons I am hoping I'm not over doing it.

I think my water may be high in alkalinity, it reads somewhere between 180 and 240 ppm according to a test strip kit. I have not tested my mash pH. Bad i know but hey I'm a home brewer! Now I'm wondering if I'm outside the optimum range during the mash. I consistently get lower than expected conversion but the beer attenuates well. Can highly alkaline water kill efficiency?

I guess a couple things to try, boil my brewing water and let it settle overnight? Dilute with RO/DI water? Maybe brew with some RO water with some baseline salts?

 

[hophop]

I was instructed to let my campden treated water sit for 24 hours to off gas and reduce any chance of yeast damage.


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[Weezy]

Given you're not confident that its dms and that it tasted good before bottling, it could be contamination.

Also, definitely brew with store bought RO water for your next batch to see if that matters. It's a nice easy way to rule out a bunch of things.

 

[augiedoggy]

It's been a long time since I've had rolling Rock, but I'd assume that you'd get DMS in both bottles and cans.

As far as "skunky", that's from light striking a green bottle. It's not oxidation - it's light.

Rolling rock may not taste the same as you remember as they were bought out and have been in the process of closing the brewery while having the competition brew it now under contract brewing (Like PBR did) I doubt miller or bud put in glass lined tanks and such that "ole latrobe" was famous for in PA...

I taste a sweet corn like flavor in it still but not DMS

 

[augiedoggy]

I was instructed to let my campden treated water sit for 24 hours to off gas and reduce any chance of yeast damage.


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Edit Deleted and incorrect statement about campden tablets removing chloramine

 

[Yooper]

I'm using less than 1/2 of a 550mg finely crushed tablet added to about 6 gallons. 1/2 of that added while strike water is heating, the other 1/2 added while the sparge water is heating. Considering 1 tablet treats about 20 gallons I am hoping I'm not over doing it.

I think my water may be high in alkalinity, it reads somewhere between 180 and 240 ppm according to a test strip kit. I have not tested my mash pH. Bad i know but hey I'm a home brewer! Now I'm wondering if I'm outside the optimum range during the mash. I consistently get lower than expected conversion but the beer attenuates well. Can highly alkaline water kill efficiency?

I guess a couple things to try, boil my brewing water and let it settle overnight? Dilute with RO/DI water? Maybe brew with some RO water with some baseline salts?

The alkaline water will generally mean a too-high mash pH, and that gives an off-flavor to the beer. My own water has a bicarb level of 228 ppm. The only beer I can make without any acid at all is stout. It's a great stout! But when I used that water to make lighter colored beers, especially kolsch with noble hops, the beers were a bit harsh and with an off-flavor. If you're not using acid to mitigate some of the alkalinity, I'm reasonably confident that is your issue.

Using RO water (with only 1 teaspoon of calcium chloride in the water, no other salts) for one batch would definitely nail this issue.

Unfortunatly Campden only removes chlorine not chloramine which a lot of municipalities use now...

That's not so. It is well known to remove chloramines. Chlorine itself will gas off without campden, or by boiling, so campden (potassium metabisulfite) is routinely used for brewers using to remove chloramines. The reaction is instantaneous and the treated water doesn't need to sit.

 

[hophop]

The alkaline water will generally mean a too-high mash pH, and that gives an off-flavor to the beer. My own water has a bicarb level of 228 ppm. The only beer I can make without any acid at all is stout. It's a great stout! But when I used that water to make lighter colored beers, especially kolsch with noble hops, the beers were a bit harsh and with an off-flavor. If you're not using acid to mitigate some of the alkalinity, I'm reasonably confident that is your issue.



Using RO water (with only 1 teaspoon of calcium chloride in the water, no other salts) for one batch would definitely nail this issue.











That's not so. It is well known to remove chloramines. Chlorine itself will gas off without campden, or by boiling, so campden (potassium metabisulfite) is routinely used for brewers using to remove chloramines. The reaction is instantaneous and the treated water doesn't need to sit.

It's supposed to sit to off gas the sulfites, which is designed to kill bacteria and yeast. It can take 12-24 hours to off gas the sulfites. Sulfites make for a unhealthy wort for the yeast to multiply and survive.


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[stewart194]

It's supposed to sit to off gas the sulfites, which is designed to kill bacteria and yeast. It can take 12-24 hours to off gas the sulfites. Sulfites make for a unhealthy wort for the yeast to multiply and survive.

I've been told this also and that is what I do. I add a 1/4 to 1/2 crushed campden tablet to each 5 gallons of water 24 hours before using. But Yooper knows her stuff so I could be misinformed.

Yooper -

I use RO water also...do you only use 1 teaspoon of Calcium Chloride and nothing else in your stouts? I usually use 2 teaspoons of Calcium Chloride and 1 teaspoon gypsum. But I just heard that Gypsum and Calcium Chloride can kind of "fight" with each other when used together.

 

[Croyzen]

I've set up a one gallon BIAB profile in beersmith that will use about 2.2 gallons of total water. The batch size is about 1.25 with getting a fairly trub free gallon into the fermenter. Now for the dumb questions. 1. Can I get RO water fairly easy at the store? I do not have an RO system at home. I know I can get distilled water in gallon jugs just about anywhere. It's my understanding that chemically distilled is more of a blank slate than RO. Is this true? 2. I'm guessing the calcium chloride one tsp amount is for 5 gallons. So if my math is right this would be about 1 gram per gallon? My scale weighs in grams. Is there a way to measure out small 1 gallon amounts without using a scale? Something the LHBS sells?

I plan on doing a one gallon troubleshooting batch for the centennial blonde and just need the KISS version of the water as this will be my first one gallon batch so I'll have my hands full getting my boil off, losses, etc correct on this batch. My thoughts are to add two grams (plus a "pinch") of calcium chloride in 2.2 gallons of distilled brewing water. Just don't know how to ensure I have the right amount. I'm comfortable weighing out 100 grams of DME for a yeast starter with my scale but at the 1 gram range I'm not so sure.

 

[Yooper]

Again that is not so and the chemical reaction is quite fast. I am on my new iPhone and cannot post the link but if you write out the formula that is in the brew science forum, you can see that the reaction is instantaneous.


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[Weezy]

Buy the jugs that say 'drinking' water. Don't get 'spring' water. I'd skip any mineral additions for this test batch imho....KISS

 

[augiedoggy]

That's not so. It is well known to remove chloramines. Chlorine itself will gas off without campden, or by boiling, so campden (potassium metabisulfite) is routinely used for brewers using to remove chloramines. The reaction is instantaneous and the treated water doesn't need to sit.

ah yes your right! I will edit my post ... I received some bad info here in another thread telling my otherwise and didnt research it before repeating it.
Thanks!

 

[Yooper]

I've been told this also and that is what I do. I add a 1/4 to 1/2 crushed campden tablet to each 5 gallons of water 24 hours before using. But Yooper knows her stuff so I could be misinformed.

Yooper -

I use RO water also...do you only use 1 teaspoon of Calcium Chloride and nothing else in your stouts? I usually use 2 teaspoons of Calcium Chloride and 1 teaspoon gypsum. But I just heard that Gypsum and Calcium Chloride can kind of "fight" with each other when used together.

The reaction of the campden is instantaneous. There is more on that in the brew science forum, but whoever told you it needs 24 hours, and such about harming yeast is simply woefully incorrect. It's true that in HUGE doses (about 50 times what you'd use to drive off chloramine) it can harm yeast, but winemakers routinely use it at 50-75 ppm and it doesn't affect yeast in the least. That's why it's used. With 1 campden tablet per 20 gallons of water, that's so little as to be less than negligible, even IF it didn't immediately react (but it does!).

I don't use RO water for my stout- that's the only beer I can use 100% tap water in, due to my high alkalinity. I don't had gypsum to my stouts, ever.

 

[stewart194]

I don't use RO water for my stout- that's the only beer I can use 100% tap water in, due to my high alkalinity. I don't had gypsum to my stouts, ever.

When you are using 100% RO, do you sometimes use Calcium Chloride and Gypsum together? Or for example, if you were using 100% RO water for an IPA, would you only use Gypsum and no Calcium Chloride? Is there any truth to Gypsum and Calcium chloride conflicting with each other in the same beer?

 

[Yooper]

When you are using 100% RO, do you sometimes use Calcium Chloride and Gypsum together? Or for example, if you were using 100% RO water for an IPA, would you only use Gypsum and no Calcium Chloride? Is there any truth to Gypsum and Calcium chloride conflicting with each other in the same beer?

While they don't "conflict" with each other, not in the sense you mean, you can definitely add too much and together they will produce a very "minerally" quality.

If you follow the water primer, in the brew science area, the discussion of 100% RO water with calcium chloride and gypsum is covered pretty well. The short answer is that if you're not using a spreadsheet or otherwise targeting a specific profile, that both are used for hoppy beers while only calcium chloride is used for malty beers, as sulfate is used to enhance hops flavor and bitterness.

 

[Croyzen]

To follow up, I have recently brewed a 1 gallon batch of this using calcium chloride. I used 1 gram per gallon of distilled water. This was my only water manipulation. I added this to my pre-boil water which was just over 2 gallons. (So about 2 grams total.) It should be noted that when my scale read a gram of calcium chloride I removed a bit in hopes of not adding too much. My scale weighs out to the nearest gram. Based on this experience this is not acceptable. The resulting beer was far worse than the first one and in fact made the first one taste award winning! The beer's dominant flavor was a slightly salty and very twangy version of that I brewed before. So bad, it's not fit for human consumption.

What I did for the next batch of pale ale was cut my filtered tap water with distilled by about 35%. This seemed to help with mash efficiency big time. It was suspected my water's alkalinity was high and it seems dilution worked for that aspect. I will have to taste this next beer for a final judgement to see if it's less harsh. It won't be ready to drink for a while.

 

[dougdecinces]

I don't mean to be a thread hijacker, but I just tapped a supposed to be blonde ale that had a moderate amount of DMS. I brewed this on a prototype of a Blichmann electric pot. It was only 120V and because of this I only boiled off about 0.45 gal in an hour. This is the only thing I could think of that caused this. What do you guys think? I can post a recipe if needed.

FWIW, it's still a good beer. I'm just calling it a cream ale instead.

 

[robfar]

Croyzen,
A half gram error is not going to work for small batches like that. As you found, it's easy to get too much.

 

[CraigKing]

So if buying store bought water, buy the jugs of water labeled "Drinking Water" and not "Spring Water" ?

Or am I better off buying an inline carbon/charcoal filtration canister and still using my tap water?

 

[CraigKing]

So if buying store bought water, buy the jugs of water labeled "Drinking Water" and not "Spring Water" ?

Or am I better off buying an inline carbon/charcoal filtration canister and still using my tap water?

Bumping my question - still curious to what water is better to use.

 

[robfar]

Whatever water you use, you need to know what the mineral content is. The charcoal filter would be the most economical with your tap water, but what's your water profile? Only reason to buy water is if your tap water is highly alkaline or has high iron.