Couple questions on yeast starters

[Balog]

I'm very much an amateur (one batch brewed so far) so please bear with these very newbish questions.

Let's say I want to do a yeast starter. Since I like Belgians and high gravity imperial stouts, this seems like it will be a good idea. I mix up a bunch of DME and 2Lish of water (approximating the SG of the wort it'll be added to), boil it, let it cool, add my yeast. Can I do this in a sauce pan, or do I really need an Erlenmeyer? Maybe add some nutrients? I've seen putting in dried yeast prior to the boil advocated in one of the Chimay blue clone threads, albeit for the wort not the starter. Stir plate would be nice, but one thing at a time. So I pitch the yeast to the starter, and let it sit what, 12 hours? 24?

I then prepare the wort, cool it, put it in the fermenter. Do I just dump the whole 2L in? If not, how do I get the yeast out and leave behind the starter wort? What if I just want to use part of the starter? I've seen it recommended to use sterilized in a pressure cooker nalgene bottles or canning jars. Was that talking about the wort + yeast mix, or would you separate it out somehow?

After fermentation is over and I remove the beer (either to a secondary or bottling it) there will be a layer of yeast, leftover beer, and assorted stuff on the bottom of the fermenter. Would it be possible / a good idea to have another batch of wort prepared to dump right on top of that layer? I've seen people saying they do this and get good results (and it'd certainly save on yeast) but I don't know if it would be viable enough for a high gravity beer.

 

[AlCophile]

You'll save all of us a lot of time if you get and read Palmer's "How To Brew", 3rd ed.

 

[KepowOb]

You have the basic idea down right. You don't need a stir plate, but if you can shake it as often as possible (whenever you walk by) it helps add in oxygen and should lead to a bigger cell count than just letting it sit there.

It doesn't have to be in a flask either... You can make it in a pot, then transfer it to a sanitized jug that's big enough (just know for a 2L starter, you need more than 2L capacity or it'll probably make a mess when the krausen starts).

When it's done, you can cold crash it in your fridge, which will separate the yeast from the beer you've just made in the starter. You can then decant (dump) most of it out. Just swirl around what's left to mix it and then put it into your wort.

Some people will make a larger starter than what they need, and use half for their beer, and keep the other half to make a new starter for the next batch.

If your mostly making higher gravity beers though, you may need a stir plate. I'm going to be making a 1.105 OG RIS this weekend, and it would need close to a 5L starter without a stir plate... So two packs of dry yeast will have to do, hah.



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[Foosier]

Ok, I'll help...

Yes you can use a sauce pan. I do. It works great. would love an erlenmeyer, but it is not necessary. The basics of your process is spot on. I do use yeast nutrients in my starters since I am trying to get the healthiest yeast for my wort. Stir plates are nice. I have one and it makes things easier. That being said I did a number of starters in growlers with the swirl it everytime you pass method. This works too.

Adding the starter to the wort. 2 thoughts... dump it all in (easiest) decant first. If it is a small starter then dumping the whole thing in won't hurt anything. If you are doing big beers which need big starters, decanting is the best method. Put the starter in the fridge when you start brewing. The yeast will settle out. When your chilled wort is ready (or a little before) take the starter out of the fridge and pour off most of the clear "beer" off the top of the yeast layer. Then swirl the yeast into suspension in the remaining wort and dump in your batch. easy peasy.

When fermentation is over, you can repitch onto the yeast from the last beer. Generally you only want to do this if the prior beer was a low gravity batch. If it was an imperial stout or big belgian, then you probably don't want to use it as the high alcohol will stress the yeast. Also, don't use the whole yeast cake. Only a portion is really necessary. Usually, you only need a cup or less of the slurry from the prior batch for a subsequent batch. This does work great and saves a ton of money if you can coordinate your brews to take advantage.

Good luck!

 

[CRoth36]

Growlers make excellent yeast starter containers. Why just drink beer from then? Use them to help make beer.

 

[CA_Mouse]

One thing about the OG of your starter... You don't want it to be higher than 1.020-1.040. Any higher will stress the yeast. You want the yeast to replicate, not make beer.

 

[CTownBrewer]

Use JZ's Mr. Malty yeast calculator too. You want to make sure you're pitching the right amount of healthy yeast.

For example, depending on the yeast harvest date & OG of your beer, you may be able to get away with using 2 vials of yeast in a 1L starter. If my starter volume is closer to 1L, I just pitch the whole active starter into the wort without worrying too much about it influencing flavor. If I'm making a 2L+ starter, I crash cool 24 hrs & decent the liquid off. Swirl & pitch.

 

[MB331]

Northern Brewer has an instructional video on its' website. Choose Learn from the home page, then click on Resources. There are a bunch of videos you can learn a lot from.

 

[Balog]

Many thanks for all the helpful replies. I am working my way through How to Brew but if we never discussed ideas that are covered in books there'd be no need for a Beginner's forum.

Interesting idea on using a growler, until I get a flask that sounds like a great deal.

So, I make the starter, cold crash it, then pour off most of the liquid. Do I then rewarm the yeast before pitching? Doesn't the cold make them hibernate and grow protective coats or something?

On the idea of repitching yeast that was used to make a high OG beer: if you are using it for a similar style (ie two types of heavy stout or big Belgian in a row) would that still be bad? What's the best way to harvest and store the yeast from the bottom of the fermenter?

Thanks for the Northern Brewer video tip, I'll definitely check that out.

ETA: also, why are starters only used for liquid yeast and not dried? If using dried, can it be harvested and repitched just like liquid?

 

[DJDBrew]

Generally when I make a starter, I will start it a few days in advance, say 2-3 days. The night before I brew, I throw the starter that has now slowed a bit into the fridge to cool and settle. When I start my brewing process, the starter is nice and settled and I take it out of the fridge to come to room temp while I brew. When I am ready to pitch, I decant and throw it into the fermenter.

I can't really comment on the reason as to the question on pitching onto a cake that has been used to brew a big beer with another big beer so I will let others comment on that. But as far as harvesting the yeast that is definitely possible. There is a great sticky in the Yeast and Fermentation section that shows the process step by step. Find it here:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/yeast-washing-illustrated-41768/

And lastly the reason starters are generally used more for liquid yeast rather than dry is that dry yeast contain MUCH more yeast cells when compared to liquid, generally 2-3 times more depending on the age of the liquid yeast. So usually there are enough yeast cells in the dry to get fermentation off and running especially if you rehydrate. Liquid yeast need the starter in order to reproduce in order to get to the amount of yeast cells needed to kick off a healthy fermentation.

 

[Balog]

Thanks, great information.

I wish there was more variety in dry yeast, seems so much easier than doing a starter and all that. But I suppose if I repitch it'll be something of a moot point.

 

[CA_Mouse]

Thanks, great information.

I wish there was more variety in dry yeast, seems so much easier than doing a starter and all that. But I suppose if I repitch it'll be something of a moot point.

The variety of dry yeast is getting broader and better, but there are lots of them that will never be able to be dried. Depending on the style, I've had some really nice brews with dry yeast, but liquid yeast and a starter made the same beers much better.

 

[Accidic]

Interesting idea on using a growler, until I get a flask that sounds like a great deal.

So, I make the starter, cold crash it, then pour off most of the liquid. Do I then rewarm the yeast before pitching? Doesn't the cold make them hibernate and grow protective coats or something?

On the idea of repitching yeast that was used to make a high OG beer: if you are using it for a similar style (ie two types of heavy stout or big Belgian in a row) would that still be bad? What's the best way to harvest and store the yeast from the bottom of the fermenter?

ETA: also, why are starters only used for liquid yeast and not dried? If using dried, can it be harvested and repitched just like liquid?

I used to use Pyrex containers. They were easy to clean, I left a couple small plastic bars in it (cut from cheap *SANITIZED* plastic chopsticks) and sat it on top of a non-heat vibrating unit covered with sanitized aluminum foil. They weren't as prolific as stirplate versions would be but they were clearly more effective than nothing at all.

I've seen differing opinions on whether warming the yeast matters or not. Personally I decant first, recover, then let it sit on the counter while I do other preparations. The temperature will come up pretty fast even at room temperature. I've heard that it prevents shock to the yeast. I don't know if it's true but it's what I choose to believe.

I could be mistaken here as I generally avoid it but my understanding on repitching after a very high gravity beer is that they've been under a substantial amount of stress (alcohol is toxic to yeast after all). This makes the likelihood of mutation and/or off flavors (from stress) much more likely. It's very easy to save a little bit if you're concerned. You can make good quality starters from a very minimal amount of yeast after all. I've currently got a batch building from a few thousand cells. You probably have at least close to that left in a flask. If you prep a little starter liquid you can boost the counts, jar it, and leave in the fridge for months (some people claim years).

Dried yeast cells are loaded with nutrients to match their intended usage. If you create a starter with them (which can be done btw) you can increase your cell counts if that's what you need but you can exhaust those stores. Since dry yeast is usually fairly inexpensive for huge cell counts, blowing an extra couple dollars and doubling your counts would seem much easier to me but to each their own.

Also, yes, you can harvest, rinse, and reuse dry yeast. I've heard people say they are more likely to have some off flavor production in dry yeast packets which presumably would potentially be increased by doing this but personally I like them just as well as most of their liquid counterparts and have never had such issues at a very noticeable level.

On a slightly different note, if you watch homebrewfinds.com they post links to cheap flasks on Amazon semi-frequently. After all of mine got destroyed in the move (THANKS UPS!), I restocked my 50ml, 100ml, 250ml, 500ml, 1L, and 2L from there all for about $25 shipped and I picked up a second 2L for about $9. They're of decent quality (Kendal?) and I've yet to have one shatter even moving it directly from heat to cold and I heat them on my electric stove without a double rather frequently although I do now use the aluminum heat spreader/diffuser I bought for our glass water kettle and for the $6 I paid for it they're hard to beat.