Converting an Outbuilding: Help!

[C38368]

Hey all,

My wife and I recently purchased a new home, complete with an outbuilding in the back yard. Originally built to service diesel pusher motorhomes, I think it's much better suited for brewing: 15'x15' enclosed, with a garage door at one end leading to a covered area that extends another ten feet from the building. Best of all, there's power, and drain hookups!

But, it's not finished, probably by design. And because I prefer to not have incest carcasses and spider webs in my brew space... I think I should probably see to that.

Which brings me here. I've got a bunch of questions that I'm hoping a few of you might have some answers for.

I live in Riverside, CA, which is right up on the edge of the desert. For the most part, we have hot, dry, summers, and cool, dry, winters. Humidity does happen, but usually in daily cycles (morning fog or haze), or as part of summertime inversions. But it's not a damp location, by any stretch.

And it is dusty.

When I'm finished, I intend to be running a 30A, single-element PID control panel, and I'd like to have the requisite lighting, a single ceiling fan, chest freezer, fridge (possibly), portable A/C unit, and probably some kind of electric cooling solution.

Anyway, I have a whole slew of questions. I'll try to put them in sensible order, or at least a digestible order. So, without further ado:

Electrical
As I mentioned, there's power to the unit. The subpanel that supplied power is helpfully labeled, and I appear to have a single 100A circuit going out there (actually, it's two 50A breakers paired up, which I assume means 100A), out of a subpanel on the main house. Inside the building, there is another subpanel, with six (6) 20A circuits, and one (1) each 40A, 60A, and... 120A(?) circuit. The last three are actually pairs of 20, 30, and 60A breakers. This leads me to my first two questions:

1. Does anybody have any idea why I have a 120A breaker if I only have 100A coming in; and
2. Will these circuits, both internally and overall, be sufficient?

My inclination, at least to the latter, is yes, but I'm not entirely certain how much draw I can expect from a chest freezer or fridge, and AC units seem to demand a full 20A circuit.

Also: I have 220V service to the house. I assume this means that, by extension, I have 220V available at this panel. Will I need to do anything special to have a 220V outlet put in? (Other than have a real electrician do it, of course.)

Insulation
This is an easy one: how do I do it? The walls seem straightforward enough, and I'm planning on using plain old fiberglass, because that looks way more affordable than spray foam. But, will I have any issues with the flexible conduit being under insulation? I don't want to deal with permitting issues later.

More frustrating, however, is the ceiling. I need to do that space, as well, but do I really need to put in an air gap? If so, is there a better idea for the ceiling than fiberglass? Blown-in is not a reasonable option. And because of the windows at each end, I want to keep the ceiling vaulted, with exposed rafters.

In a similar vein, because this is a retrofit, what should I do--if anything--about a barrier for the insulation? I can't very well put it up on the outside, though it does appear that there is a layer of heavy black papery-stuff (not like Tyvek--not sure what its really called) over the plywood sheathing and below the finish, which is stucco.

Finally--and I'm at a complete loss here--does anyone have an idea about how to bug-proof the place, or at least mitigate it? I mean, that garage door is really not very well-sealed.

Miscellaneous Matters
What should I finish the walls and ceiling in? My wife likes corrugated steel for the lower portion, at least, but I don't want the whole thing done up in that. I like the idea of pine boards, but that may be susceptible to moisture intrusion. (Yes, I plan to put in a hood over the pots, even though most brew days will have the garage door open.)

Ok, that's all I can think of for now. I think there was more, but my browser crashed trying to upload photos, and I lost the post, had to re-write the whole thing.

Whew! Thank you all, and I really appreciate any help, advice, or insight you may have!

 

[b-boy]

You're lucky. I'm in the process of getting utilities (power, water, gas) out to my new pole barn. It's going to run close to $5K. I was a little shocked when I got the quote.

I have a 30X40 metal clad, wood framed pole barn.

As far as power, it's pretty normal to have the rating on your subpanel higher than your circuit. The breaker at your main box will kick in so you really can't overload it. Usually it's done so there are extra circuits available at the sub panel. You just can't use them all at once. As long as you don't exceed the breaker on your main panel, you'll be fine. Yes - you can wire the outbuilding for 220V with the setup you have.

A chest freezer will generally draw <5A, a little more on startup. Any AC should be 20A minimum IMHO.

As far as insulation goes, I'm using a combination of 2" rigid foam board, spray foam (great stuff), and fiberglass batts. The foam board is R10, and will create my vapor barrier. The fiberglass is R11, and will act as additional insulation in my walls. Overhead, I'm going with 6mil plastic for a vapor barrier and R60 blown in cellulose (~15 inches). I know it will be a lot different for you considering I'm in Buffalo, NY. The foam board may be a good option though. It, along with spray foam, can create a seal that will keep a lot of vermin out of your building. Maybe some dust too.

My walls will be painted OSB, and my ceiling will be corrugated steel. I heard that steel covering all the walls can be a pain, especially with sound. Apparently, it gets very 'echoey' inside the building with all steel.

I have 2 industrial ceiling fans and 4-150W LED UFO lights. they throw a lot of light.

 

[C38368]

Update for clarification, and to sound a little less foolish:
After starting this thread, I did a little more looking into the electrical situation. Turns out, I knew even less than I thought I did: what I actually have seems to be a 240V, 50A breaker on a subpanel on my house, feeding into the subpanel in the brew house. Within that subpanel, I appear to have a pair of 240V circuits (20A and 30A respectively), and six 120V, 20A circuits. I'm guessing that the 240V 60A breaker is actually a main breaker for the entire box, which still seems redundant.

You're lucky. I'm in the process of getting utilities (power, water, gas) out to my new pole barn. It's going to run close to $5K. I was a little shocked when I got the quote.

I have a 30X40 metal clad, wood framed pole barn.

As far as power, it's pretty normal to have the rating on your subpanel higher than your circuit. The breaker at your main box will kick in so you really can't overload it. Usually it's done so there are extra circuits available at the sub panel. You just can't use them all at once. As long as you don't exceed the breaker on your main panel, you'll be fine. Yes - you can wire the outbuilding for 220V with the setup you have.

A chest freezer will generally draw <5A, a little more on startup. Any AC should be 20A minimum IMHO.

As far as insulation goes, I'm using a combination of 2" rigid foam board, spray foam (great stuff), and fiberglass batts. The foam board is R10, and will create my vapor barrier. The fiberglass is R11, and will act as additional insulation in my walls. Overhead, I'm going with 6mil plastic for a vapor barrier and R60 blown in cellulose (~15 inches). I know it will be a lot different for you considering I'm in Buffalo, NY. The foam board may be a good option though. It, along with spray foam, can create a seal that will keep a lot of vermin out of your building. Maybe some dust too.

My walls will be painted OSB, and my ceiling will be corrugated steel. I heard that steel covering all the walls can be a pain, especially with sound. Apparently, it gets very 'echoey' inside the building with all steel.

I have 2 industrial ceiling fans and 4-150W LED UFO lights. they throw a lot of light.

Thanks for the input! I know--that building was no small part of the reason I wanted to buy this place. It's small, but should be just about perfect for my little operation, with some room to, you know, drink the beer. Maybe even mount a TV in one corner? You never know!

I still need to figure out what to do with water. I may have to run a hose in the short term, but there's a nearby line that I think I can tap into. Odd that the builder didn't at least add a hose bib, considering the building's original purpose, though...

I also need to suss out a drain situation I'd like to be able to tap into the RV hookup dumps, but they're located on either side of the concrete pad, about six feet in front of the building, along the covered area. I'd prefer to not have a surface line running all the way over there, but I'm not sure how to get to it underground. A cistern is an option, but limited because I won't want to be putting solid matter into it.

For insulation, are you using the foam board in the ceiling? Or perhaps the better question is: how are you using the three forms, together? I really like the idea of spray foam: simple, clean, effective. It's just expensive, at least to do the entire space.

You don't foresee any humidity issues with OSB? I've had green board recommended as well, at least for the wall behind the kettles. Mold and mildew aren't likely issue for me, but degradation or delamination could be, I guess?

 

[nobadays]

Hopefully Doug will chime in on this...he can refute where I go wrong!

Sounds like you have almost an identical electrical set up as I do running to my out building. I don't brew in that space (it is a studio) so no 240v outlet. I think it is common to come off a breaker in your main home panel and have a main breaker in the out building subpanel... I would think though that it should be equal or smaller in size to the one in the main panel.

But... I brew in my garage and have another 50A 240v breaker in my main panel feeding a sub panel in the garage with a 30A breaker on it. I then have an outlet near that panel where I plug in my brew rig. My eBIAB is 30A? and has a 50A Spa panel mounted on the stand for GFCI protection - a 5500W single element and 2 outlets on the panel, 1 15A and 1 20A to run 1 pump and a HERMS if I decided to go that way, which I won't. It has a PID - SSR - Contactor to feed the element. To me the 50A Spa panel is over kill but that is how they come. All this to say you will likely be fine running your eBIAB from the existing 30A 240V outlet. I am surprised that for large RVs they did not have a 50A outlet...

From my understanding of BEST PRACTICES in building, it would be best to use rigid foam insulation between the rafters leaving about an inch of air gap between the insulation and the underside of the roof sheeting. BEST PRACTICES again...you should have sofit vents and a roof ridge vent so air can come through the sofit vents and travel up and out through the roof ridge vent. All that said...some folks just use spray foam, plastic vapor barrier and then drywall over the top. You are in a pretty dry climate...

Green board halfway up the walls is how we have done laundry rooms and bathrooms... places where it is likely water can get on the floor and seep under the walls and cause failure in the drywall. If you intend to wash the floor down with a hose that might be a bit much even for green board. The tin might be better but then how do you seal the bottom of it so water doesn't leach up into your fiberglass insulation - or worse lay under your bottom plate and rot it out. If it is just spills and mopping...go for it!

Cheers! Don

 

[aces-n-eights]

Cool build, I'm envious! As you know, garage doors are very difficult to seal. You may get dust in as well as being tough to insulate. I would consider replacing the garage door with a regular "people" door or sliding doors. Unless, of course you want to maintain the garage door for vehicles. 15'x15' seems kinda small for a garage....

Pallet boards above a corrugated steel lower for your inside walls would look great, IMO!

 

[C38368]

The building is extremely small for a garage, which seems doubly odd since it was, apparently, built to service RVs. I don't have any need or desire to bring vehicles in, however, but I do like the idea of being able to basically open a wall. Makes the space feel much larger, and opens the door (no pun, I swear!) to creating a sort of mini-pub.


As for pallet boards... what are these and where does one find them (or are they also a DIY thing)? All I'm finding are Pinterest pages with corrugated steel panels framed by reclaimed boards from pallets. Which admittedly, looks really nice!

 

[mulletmaster]

The 60 amp breaker on the incoming line to your sub panel is probably just to turn all of the power off coming in to keep someone from having to run back into the house if the turn all the power off for some reason.

 

[aces-n-eights]

The building is extremely small for a garage, which seems doubly odd since it was, apparently, built to service RVs. I don't have any need or desire to bring vehicles in, however, but I do like the idea of being able to basically open a wall. Makes the space feel much larger, and opens the door (no pun, I swear!) to creating a sort of mini-pub.


As for pallet boards... what are these and where does one find them (or are they also a DIY thing)? All I'm finding are Pinterest pages with corrugated steel panels framed by reclaimed boards from pallets. Which admittedly, looks really nice!

I was thinking something along the line of a sliding glass patio door. You may need two double doors to span the whole width of the building and that my not fit your vision of opening a whole wall.

Pallet boards are a DIY thing. I needed some pallets and drove around until I found warehouse with a couple of hundred out back and they said "take as many as you want". The pain was pulling the nails to break them down into boards.

I found this at Home Depot. It looks spendy and the reviews are not that great, but it gives you the idea of my suggestion.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Nuvelle...od-Wall-Planks-10-sq-ft-case-NV10DP/206194874

 

[C38368]

I like the idea of a nice, glass door, instead of the garage door. Maybe a California door? I dunno--that's a long way down the line, I expect.


Just another brief update: I pulled the cover off the subpanel today. Turns out, four of the five 20A breakers are in use, all switching outlets, or the timer that controls two lights on the outside. The fifth 20A breaker, along with the three 240V breakers (60, 30, and 20A) are all just... there. The 60A breaker is not a local shutoff, after all; only the 50A breaker on the other subpanel that this one is wired from. The overall run from panel to panel is maybe 60 feet, underground, with stranded 4AWG conductors. From what I can tell, that limits effective current to something around 60A, so I'm not sure that I could really, safely, upgrade the main breaker for this panel. Kind of a bummer!


As for insulation, I'm starting to warm to the idea of using closed-cell spray foam on the underside of the roof decking. There are no soffit vents currently, nor is there any way to vent at the ridgeline. General consensus on some other sites seems to be that this is a better idea than fiberglass batting with ventilation, especially because moisture is really not an issue here.


For the walls, I'll probably still use batting for cost purposes. Also, the entire structure is not sheathed in plywood. Each of the three non-garage-door-walls has a span of about four studs that has no wood sheathing; just the paper, with substrate and stucco over that. (Annoyingly, there is a hole in one wall, near the floor, where something bashed into it some time ago. I was going to patch it but, in hindsight, I think I'm going to put a vent on it so that I can have some air intake, or maybe exhaust for an AC unit?) I might reserve some spray foam for a few smaller areas, because I'm lazy like that.


Some new questions, though:


1) What should I do with that ceiling fan? Seal it off from the rafter space and use it to help ventilate the space below? Maybe in lieu of a ventilation hood? If I did that, can I get away with brewing with all doors closed?


2) The 240V receptacle! I'm planning to use a 30A PID control panel, as I think I mentioned. So I'll probably put this behind the 30A breaker for obvious reasons. Planning to use 10ga solid-core wiring for the circuit, but that's expensive, as I'm only seeing 100' spools of individual wiring! The rest of the shed using flexible conduit, but that may simply be due to an original intent to not seal the walls. If I'm planning to insulate and finish the building, is there any reasonable reason to not use four-conductor Romex, instead? On the other hand, if I continue to use Greenfield conduit, better to run the wire first, then install the conduit, or install the conduit and fish the wire afterwards? And really, how difficult is that? Yes, I know there's a tool for it.


Thanks again! Here's to hoping that I get this started soon!

 

[nobadays]

C38368 ... It looks like you are well sorted for the electrical, no need to upgrade the main breaker. You have all the power you need. Those other 20A circuits will be useful for A/C, pumps, fans, etc. I would bet that the 60A breaker was put in there with the intention of putting a 50A outlet for large RVs.

If you are going to drywall/other coverings for the walls I see no need to use conduit, just run the Romex. It is always wise to put a steel plate - they make these for this purpose - over the stud where you have drilled through to run your wire, especially if it is close to the face of the stud, to prevent a nail in the future from being driven into the wire. If you use conduit...fish after, use plenty of lubricant if you have a lot of bends. (I wouldn't use conduit.)

Leave the fan... could you somehow duct that to your vent hood for the boil kettle?

Be sure to dig up/ around the RV dump that you said was near your building and extend that line into your space before finishing the walls, etc. If the line has concrete over it you could rent a concrete saw and just cut it/patch it back after running the line.

Envious... I built a 10' x 18' studio in the back yard and had thoughts of turning it into a brewery instead of a studio but to get plumbing to it, especially sewer was going to be cost prohibitive so I'm still in the garage...

BTW - if you have more electrical questions you might post to Electric Brewing area as Doug293cz and augiedoggy monitor that and would likely chime in with really wise counsel.

Cheers!
Don

 

[John Paul Stoddard]

If you have facebook.... Join the Pub Shed group to get Ideas and to share pictures also. https://www.facebook.com/groups/pubsheds/

I recommend a French Door instead of a sliding door..That way if you want you can Open both sides to move Large Equipment through or Open up the party into the outdoor patio area also durring time when Weather is Nice. If you have a Good Neighborhood I would go with Glass Doors Inserts...if your Afraid of Break ins ...Solid Doors..

Install a Air Vent at the opposite end of the Building for air flow.....even in that small of an attic you will be surprised how hot it can and will get fast...And You want air flow..Otherwise the fan will have to suck air from inside the Building though the attic instead of Outside Air...
That fan is not rated for use in Wet conditions...You will need a fan rated for wet conditions...think of all the water Vapor you will be pulling brewing.

The Black Paper is Tar Paper..which serves as the Vapor Barrier..you shouldn't need to install another layer of Vapor Barrier.

Decorwise...Consider bringing the Stucco into the interior decor..

If you decide split metal...consider running horizontal also..not just verticle...Save having to cut...
here are a couple of wood/metal combos to give ya a visual of what it could look like..
Also consider a prepainted metal...

 

[processhead]

Don't underestimate the utility and practicality of having an overhead door in your brew space.
When the time comes to haul heavy bulk commodities like sacks of grain or full kegs, it is really handy to be able to back a vehicle right into the building.

Sure, they don't seal up perfectly, but living in SoCal, you aren't going to be spending big money to heat it. If fact, you may want to open it up to let the heat out on brew days. Insulated overhead doors are readily available should you decide to cool the building.

Your 50 amp electrical service will probably be approaching its capacity by the time you get your electric brewery up and running. Adding A/C may push you over the edge.