Control Panel & Elements

[BrewIt]

I am currently setting up a 20 gallon HERMS system. I'm mainly going to be brewing 10 gallons but wanted the capability to brew 15 gallons on command. So I'm thinking 2 5500w elements. One in my HLT and one in my BK. However I will need 3 temp probes. Now I am thinking about using the Auber DSP120:
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?m...&cPath=53&products_id=560&number_of_uploads=0
Now I was thinking about using 2 of these controllers. 1 for my HLT and MT and 1 for my BK. The question I have is, is there a way to wire up 2 temp probes to 1 controller for my HLT and MT. Or is it just better to put a 3 way switch on controller? That way I can toggle between the HLT and MT.

I really like this element but hate the fact it isn't made in the US: https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/element5500_ripple_tc.htm
Does anyone know of any other elements like this that are made here? I really like the fact that you can unplug it. Also the fact that it is all stainless.

Lastly I was wondering how big of a box do I need for the control panel? Anyone have any suggestions? Thanks again for all of the help. There are too many options and customizations with electric brewing! Its fun and overwhelming at the same time.

 

[atoughram]

Sounds similiar to my system - I have a keggle BK controlled by and Auber 2352, a 20gal Spike MLT/Rims with another Auber 2352, and a 20gal Spike BK with a Brewhardware wave element. The BK element is controlled with an Auber SSVR40A - Not a PID. In fact I suggest not trying to control a BK with a PID - you'll end up in manual mode to keep it from boiling over. If you wanted to use an Auber boil control such as a DSPR120, you'll need a temperature probe in the BK. My thought process on the BK is it's either boiling or it needs to be boiling and there isn't really a need for temperature control - but that how I brew - you probably brew different.

I'd have to say that most mass produced 240V elements are produced in China - probably hard to find one that is not.

My control panel is a Hoffman 16" X 16" X 4" deep (IIRC). It's got 10 pounds stuffed into a 5 pound box... Neatly of course... to get the SSR's neatly installed into an enclosure, you'll need something deeper than 4". My SSR's are bolted inside to the side of the enclosure, and I've got a heat sink bolted to the outside of the enclosure dissipating heat. Not an optimal configuration but it's worked fine for years now. The website http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/ can answer many questions also.

 

[BrewIt]

Yes. I will have 3 temp probes. I'm going to use the Auber 120 because it will give the element full power till boil then automatically dial the power down to keep a rolling boil.

 

[Leadpencil]

I am in the process of building a new system. Similar to what you are doing. I have 2 of the DSP120's, 1 for the boil kettle and one for the htl. I am using a SYL-2352 for my mash. I have a 6 inch probe in my mash tun, this is going to run the recirc pump in the herms coil.
You would need a 3 way switch to use two temp probes on 1 PID.

I used a 20x36x9 inch stainless box for my panel. Big enough to put everything inside. I have another one for sale if you are interested.

 

[BrewIt]

I'm thinking a 3 way switch. Otherwise I'd have to run 3 temp controllers. 2 in which control the element in the HLT. I just figure a 3 way switch would be easier/less wiring/less clutter in the panel/more cost effective. Also yes I may be interested in the box. Is it the same size as what you just listed?

 

[Leadpencil]

yes it is.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=582958

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showpost.php?p=7699475&postcount=552

 

[LuisCheco]

The heating elements you are looking for is this one.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B...=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000BPG4LI

These elements are made by CAMCO. And they are an US manufacturer.

These elements are 804 stainless steel. And are made of a high performance nickel-chromium stainless steel alloy. It's high temperature resistance allows the heating element to resist damage in the event that it is fired dry (not in water)*by accident.

Many of the shiny 304/316 stainless steel elements that are sold are also not ULWD (Ultra Low Watt Density) and not UL*listed for use in the US and Canada.*

The shiny no name elements either have larger radius bends or they are made from a softer, more malleable material that does not require annealing.*804 stainless steel elements have small radius bends and must be annealed to form them. The annealing process causes the surface of the element to oxidize and darken. In other words requires more steps in the manufacturing process, which I believe gives you a superior product.

It depends on the size of your kettle. But you should look for 804 stainless steel ULWD heating elements.

 

[masonsjax]

The heating elements you are looking for is this one.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B...=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000BPG4LI

These elements are made by CAMCO. And they are an US manufacturer.

These elements are 804 stainless steel. And are made of a high performance nickel-chromium stainless steel alloy. It's high temperature resistance allows the heating element to resist damage in the event that it is fired dry (not in water)*by accident.

Many of the shiny 304/316 stainless steel elements that are sold are also not ULWD (Ultra Low Watt Density) and not UL*listed for use in the US and Canada.*

The shiny no name elements either have larger radius bends or they are made from a softer, more malleable material that does not require annealing.*804 stainless steel elements have small radius bends and must be annealed to form them. The annealing process causes the surface of the element to oxidize and darken. In other words requires more steps in the manufacturing process, which I believe gives you a superior product.

It depends on the size of your kettle. But you should look for 804 stainless steel ULWD heating elements.

Just a side note, I have 2 of the linked elements. The base is not stainless and has some rust. I painted the bases with por-15, but it peels off after a batch or three. Now I just clean them off before a run and don't worry about it.

 

[Bobby_M]

The heating elements you are looking for is this one.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B...=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000BPG4LI

These elements are made by CAMCO. And they are an US manufacturer.

These elements are 804 stainless steel. And are made of a high performance nickel-chromium stainless steel alloy. It's high temperature resistance allows the heating element to resist damage in the event that it is fired dry (not in water)*by accident.

Many of the shiny 304/316 stainless steel elements that are sold are also not ULWD (Ultra Low Watt Density) and not UL*listed for use in the US and Canada.*

The shiny no name elements either have larger radius bends or they are made from a softer, more malleable material that does not require annealing.*804 stainless steel elements have small radius bends and must be annealed to form them. The annealing process causes the surface of the element to oxidize and darken. In other words requires more steps in the manufacturing process, which I believe gives you a superior product.

It depends on the size of your kettle. But you should look for 804 stainless steel ULWD heating elements.

I'm not interested in a debate, but the elements you linked to have nickel plated steel screw in bases and will rust. I have a couple of cases of those units and I'll sell them for $10 a piece instead of Amazon's $27. However, I also sell ripple elements made in the U.S. that use stainless in the tubing and base and those are $40. The OP was asking about the TC integrated units and no, there is no U.S. manufacturer for those. U.S. manufacturers are much less interested in working with niche industry.

 

[BrewIt]

Thanks for all of the feedback everyone. I really don't want to have to clean rust off of the elements every time I use them. That's why I would want to go with the the all SS version.

 

[BrewIt]

I'm not interested in a debate, but the elements you linked to have nickel plated steel screw in bases and will rust. I have a couple of cases of those units and I'll sell them for $10 a piece instead of Amazon's $27. However, I also sell ripple elements made in the U.S. that use stainless in the tubing and base and those are $40. The OP was asking about the TC integrated units and no, there is no U.S. manufacturer for those. U.S. manufacturers are much less interested in working with niche industry.

You talked me into the $41 elements. After some research I'm going with 2 of your hot pods as well. And I'm going to order a bunch of cam locks from you too. Thanks for all of the feedback everyone.

 

[BrewIt]

Does anyone know how many amps these elements draw typically? I'm starting to build my panel and I'm trying to figure out how big of a GFCI breaker I should have also I would like to put separate breakers inside the panel for the elements.

 

[CadiBrewer]

Does anyone know how many amps these elements draw typically? I'm starting to build my panel and I'm trying to figure out how big of a GFCI breaker I should have also I would like to put separate breakers inside the panel for the elements.

The amp meter on my panel usually reads 23 amps with the element and two pumps running.

 

[BrewIt]

Very good. So 25a SSR's should be more than enough for each element as well? Thanks for the reply CadiBrewer!

 

[masonsjax]

5500 watts / 240 volts = ~22.92 amps

I would go with 30a breakers per element. 25a SSRs should work, but I used a 75a one on my SSVR based controller because it was cheap and hey why not? It has a fan running over the heatsink, but nothing even warms up during a run.

 

[CadiBrewer]

I went with 40a SSRs. I followed Kal's build and that's what was recommended.

 

[homebrewdude76]

I am at 46 amps with 2 elements and 3 pumps running 100%. I also went with 40amp SSR and a large heat sink

 

[BrewIt]

I'll go with a 50a GFCI, 40a SSR's, and 30a breakers for each element within the panel. Thanks for all of the help everyone!

 

[lschiavo]

I am using a SYL-2352 for my mash. I have a 6 inch probe in my mash tun, this is going to run the recirc pump in the herms coil.

So you are temp controlling your HERMS pump? I originally planned to do that but someone on here wisely talked me out of it. I just set my HLT to my mash temp and circulate full time. With either HERMS or RIMS, there is really no reason to stop the circulation during a mash. It actually defeats the advantages of circulating and a temp probe in the tun would be a real pain for stirring and cleaning. I just have a dial thermometer at the outlet. It always reads what my HLT is set to. I may just get rid of it.

 

[Dfitz]

I went with the 80amp SSRs for my BK and HLT. The brew function of my controller is based on the 50amp Kal clone so there's always room for expanding. Cost wasn't much more.

 

[Leadpencil]

So you are temp controlling your HERMS pump? I originally planned to do that but someone on here wisely talked me out of it. I just set my HLT to my mash temp and circulate full time. With either HERMS or RIMS, there is really no reason to stop the circulation during a mash. It actually defeats the advantages of circulating and a temp probe in the tun would be a real pain for stirring and cleaning. I just have a dial thermometer at the outlet. It always reads what my HLT is set to. I may just get rid of it.

I did some reading on here about hot and cold spots in the mash and the probing not reading correctly. In doing some testing I found that my mash temp was lower than what my HLT was set to. So I was constantly having to monitor the two different vessels to get it set right. If this new set up works for me then its great. If not I am only out the cost of a new temp probe that I needed anyways.

 

[BeagleBrewing]

Not a great idea to switch the input to a PID controller between two different applications. It is unlikely a single set of PID tuning constants will be ideal for both applications. That said, I have a PID (via an Arduino Mega) on my BK and never use it the auto mode. Using the Arduino I do heat at 100% output to a point then cut back to ~85% for a 5500W ULWD element on ~5 gallon batches. For my HERMS setup I measure the wort temp exiting the coil and exiting the pump. I also have a probe in the mash tun (10 gal HD cooler) about 2" from the bottom. The bottom probe and the pump exit are usually within 1 degree. For some reason the coil exit runs a couple degrees lower. I'm using homemade SS DS18B20 temperature probes. Stirring the mash has little impact on the temperature readings. I record all temperatures and plot them in Excel (retired control engineer)...

I did not know of ULWD elements with a SS base. After about a dozen batches I've seen no sign of rust in either the HLT or BK. Probably only a matter of time. I do dry both after every batch.

Good Luck with your build.

John

 

[BrewIt]

Not a great idea to switch the input to a PID controller between two different applications. It is unlikely a single set of PID tuning constants will be ideal for both applications. That said, I have a PID (via an Arduino Mega) on my BK and never use it the auto mode. Using the Arduino I do heat at 100% output to a point then cut back to ~85% for a 5500W ULWD element on ~5 gallon batches. For my HERMS setup I measure the wort temp exiting the coil and exiting the pump. I also have a probe in the mash tun (10 gal HD cooler) about 2" from the bottom. The bottom probe and the pump exit are usually within 1 degree. For some reason the coil exit runs a couple degrees lower. I'm using homemade SS DS18B20 temperature probes. Stirring the mash has little impact on the temperature readings. I record all temperatures and plot them in Excel (retired control engineer)...

I did not know of ULWD elements with a SS base. After about a dozen batches I've seen no sign of rust in either the HLT or BK. Probably only a matter of time. I do dry both after every batch.

Good Luck with your build.

John

John you don't suggest using one PID and switching between 2 temp probes? Would you suggest using 2 PID's and have them control 1 element in my HLT instead? I'm open to different ideas. I know a lot of people do things in different ways. I just want the best setup for the best outcome.

 

[BeagleBrewing]

If you decide to use a single PID controller for two different applications (inputs) be prepared to change the tuning constants each time you change inputs. Having multiple inputs each with a dedicated PID controller all connected to the same output (element) through some sort of switch is common practice in industry.

Due to piping geometry, lengths, etc. the two temperature probes will likely have different response time constants and dead times. This will lead to different ideal PID tuning constants. For example the probe controlling the HLT temperature will have a relatively long time constant as it is controlling the temperature of a large mass of water. If you attempt to control the HERMS exit temperature the time constant will be even longer. Not only do you have to change the temperature of a large mass of water but also transfer it through a coil to a moving stream of wort.

Personally I do not try to control the HERMS exit temperature directly. I have established a general "rule of thumb" for my setup. I set the HLT temperature about 2-3 degF above the desired mash temperature and tweak it based on the mash bottom and exit temperatures. I did try a cascade setup with a mash temp input to one PID controller whose output set the HLT setpoint. The time constant was impossibly long and the batch was over before I could even begin to tune the mash PID so I gave up on that idea.

I have plots in Excel of most of my brews. If you are interested I can send you one. They are intended for my own use so may require a little explanation!

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

The design theory for a single vessel brewing system made the most sense to me and has worked our really well in practice just as advertised. The wort is circulated from top to bottom with the heating element mounted at the bottom of the kettle. The temperature sensor is mounted in the lid at the point where the wort enters the grain bed.