Continuing off flavors!

[hasunhats]

Hi,
I am a new BIAB brewer, doing small batches (1-2 gallons). Started with Brooklyn Brewing kit and then moved on to brewing scaled down recipes from books.

I've made about 8-9 batches, all grain, biab, all ales with US-05 that I let hydrate; also made a small starter with one to see if that made a difference - nope.

Each batch is having an off flavor that seems to be picked up after fermentation. When I transfer the wort to the bottling pot and check the OG, also taste the sample a bit and the taste is pretty decent. No discernable off flavors at that time, as far as I know.

But something seems to happen between adding priming sugar, through bottling, through conditioning, and finally trying the beer and a medicinal, not too strong but strong enough off smell. Maybe plastic-like? Overly malty? Hop-to-malt ratio off?

This last one was a SMaSH with 2-row (100% of grain bill), Cascade @ 60, 15, 1 min (15 grams each time). But no matter the recipe it seems to develop the same off smell, taste. Maybe even earthy? Hard to describe.

I have direct control over fermentation temps (converted small fridge) so I know that's not the issue. I sanitize all my equipment before and after each use.

Could it be due to my reusing older bottles? I clean them out but haven't replaced them in a year or so. Soak in oxyclean, then rinse, then sanitize then bottle?

Any ideas I can try? I LOVE brewing and want to get this process down and actually make some good enough to share!

Please let me know and I'll provide any info needed to help identify issues!

I do add campden tablets to all water before! Have tried both bottled spring water from the store, as well as tap - both give the same result.

 

[zmanzorro]

Are you new to brewing? Or just new to BIAB brewing?

 

[hasunhats]

New to BIAB. Have been brewing for about 2 years or so, on and off.

My batches total 8-10 or so, and all have been small, 1-2 gallon batches (due to space), which are fine for me until I figure out this off flavor mess.

All have been all grain, have used different mash tuns (coolers, pots) and the wort created after the boil, when I take the OG, tastes great. Then I add in priming sugar, bottle with soaked, cleaned, sanitized bottles, caps, siphon, tubing (silicone), etc. and after conditioning (have tried as low as 68 f, and as high as 80 f - same result either way) the beer has that plastic, medicinal taste.

All water is treated with campden. Have tried filtered (charcoal) tap water (Los Angeles area), regular tap water, bottled Arrowhead water from grocery store - all treated with campden.

 

[Rockn_M]

What are your steep time and temperatures?

 

[hasunhats]

I mash at around 152 f, for 60-75 minutes, depending if I had to adjust temp during the mash (if not using my cooler).

 

[smizak]

What are your ferm temps? Are you aerating or oxygenating?

I've had IPAs that tasted slightly phenolic when fermenting with US-05 a couple of years ago. I've switched to exclusively liquid yeast and Mr. Malty calculated starters with oxygen, not air, and all beers since are clean as a whistle.

 

[hasunhats]

My fermentation temps are properly controlled, with the Johnson controller and a fridge. I hold it (pale ales, IPAs so far), and have tried different batches at, 65 f - 70 f - all resulting in good tasting wort before bottling, but all had the same off taste after bottling.

Conditioning temps, again, have varied for different batches for my own testing - all temps held consistenly. As low as 68 f, as high as 80 f.

Colder? Warmer? Any ideas?

 

[smizak]

Trust me, change your yeast first. You sound like you have everything else under control

 

[hasunhats]

I've tried dry yeasts, liquid yeasts, starters;

pitched dry, well, dry, then tried hydrated dry. Then liquid yeast, then liquid yeast starter, then a starter with dry...

Anything else I should try, lol?

The wort after fermentation tastes great. Just somewhere between priming/bottling and end of conditioning something somewhere happens.

 

[smizak]

Do you store your beer cold?

 

[hoperific]

Try to find a qualified judge or experienced brewer in your area (club meeting?) to try it and held ID any off flavors. You describe earthy, metallic and plastic, so it's hard to know what's going on with it.

What kind or water are you using? Tap? RO? Any water treatments?

I've used US-05 a ton and have never had any plastic or metallic flavors. It could be some contamination somewhere between fermenter are bottle...racking cane/tube? bottling wand? the spigot of the bottling bucket is a common place for some funk to hide...

I had a friend just calibrate his Johnson controller and find out it was displaying 5 degrees too low...so he was actually 5 degrees higher than he thought fermenting every batch. Yikes.

 

[hasunhats]

After conditioning I put in the fridge for a at least a few days before trying a bottle.

I always leave a few for a month if not longer to see how they develop.

 

[hasunhats]

Try to find a qualified judge or experienced brewer in your area (club meeting?) to try it and held ID any off flavors. You describe earthy, metallic and plastic, so it's hard to know what's going on with it.

What kind or water are you using? Tap? RO? Any water treatments?

I've used US-05 a ton and have never had any plastic or metallic flavors. It could be some contamination somewhere between fermenter are bottle...racking cane/tube? bottling wand? the spigot of the bottling bucket is a common place for some funk to hide...

I had a friend just calibrate his Johnson controller and find out it was displaying 5 degrees too low...so he was actually 5 degrees higher than he thought fermenting every batch. Yikes.

Thanks!

I've tried tap water - filtered (charcoal) and treated with campden. Also tried bottled spring water, campden-treated - same result with both.

I used all new equipment for my last batch and it had the same flavor! I had the same thought it might have been some of the equipment. I use a siphon, not a spigot, but used a new siphon, silicone tubing this time... same flavor.

Yeah, alongside new bottles, trying PBW vs. oxyclean I am going to measure the wort temp more often when fermenting vs. the chamber. I measured wort temp for about half my previous batches and they were mostly in range of mid-60s f, but one did get up to the low 70s, but didn't result in the beer tasting off. Before bottling they all tasted great!

Something, somewhere is off after fermentation I think. Hoping new bottles, etc. will help.

 

[Hopinista]

What are your ferm temps? Are you aerating or oxygenating?

I've had IPAs that tasted slightly phenolic when fermenting with US-05 a couple of years ago. I've switched to exclusively liquid yeast and Mr. Malty calculated starters with oxygen, not air, and all beers since are clean as a whistle.

This.

I've been brewing for 6 years. Roughly 12 batches a year. And the only time I've had off flavors was when I used US-05. I know a lot of people swear by it, but I'm sure it's ruined 4 of my batches. I have my processes all down to a tee.

IMO it's the worst yeast on the market.

 

[hasunhats]

I will get another vial of liquid yeast next batch, but I'm afraid it will result in the same off flavor as my last uses of liquid yeast!

I'm pretty sure it's not the yeast, but I will try again next brew.

 

[smizak]

I will get another vial of liquid yeast next batch, but I'm afraid it will result in the same off flavor as my last uses of liquid yeast!

I'm pretty sure it's not the yeast, but I will try again next brew.

If you want to send beer to Buffalo, I'm a certified BJCP judge. Letting someone else try to put a finger on it is a good suggestion.

 

[ncbrewer]

I don't think the "old" bottles are the problem. I'm still using some that I got, used, in 1992 with no off flavors.

 

[zmanzorro]

Conditioning temps, again, have varied for different batches for my own testing - all temps held consistenly. As low as 68 f, as high as 80 f.

Colder? Warmer? Any ideas?

To me that seems too high. The data sheet for US-05 says 59-72 F, ideally. I typically set mine to 18 C, which is about 64 F.

 

[hasunhats]

Yeah, I tried a batch or two at low conditioning temps (65 or so) and same thing. No difference in the flavor vs higher conditioning temps, just the same off flavor.

 

[acidrain]

Seems like the bottles are the only thing you haven't changed.
You said you soak them in cleaner, then rinse.
I would try new bottles, or thoroughly scrubbing the ones you have.
When I was bottling, I used a bottle brush that was cut off to fit in a drill, soaked in oxyclean, given a quick brush, thoroughly rinsed in clean water, then dunked in star-san and allowed to hang on the tree until used the same day. This worked every time for me.

 

[GarrettMD]

One thing that hasn't been suggested yet is over-carbonation, not to the extent you get bottle bombs, but enough that you get a carbonic acid 'twang' in the beer. Are you using calculators to determine how much priming sugar to add factoring in how much CO2 is already in suspension in the beer after fermentation?

Try lowering the amount of sugar you prime with and see if that fixes it. It really seems like you have tested everything except different bottles and different carbonation levels so it is most likely one of those two things causing the off flavor.

 

[gstrawn]

The flavor you describe is very similar to my plight. Upon talking to my lhbs owner I believe it is my water. High in chlorophenols. It can extract extra tannins from the grains. Try using store bought water. I haven't tried it yet but I will in my next brew


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[hasunhats]

Great points! Really appreciate your feedback.

When the new bottles come in I'll brew another batch, trying a few of the things noted here.

 

[CBMbrewer]

How long do you let the bottle condition before putting them in the fridge? How long do you let them sit in the fridge before opening? Have you tried sourcing you ingredients from somewhere else?

 

[pdxal]

OP has changed yeast and water multiple times, doubt it is those things.
One thought: how are you priming your beer? Over carbonation and length of time conditioning noted above could cause some off flavors. Also, are you sanitizing your priming sugar, and rinsing your bottles before bottling? Infection can cause phenolic/medicinal/band aid flavors, just like chloramines->chlorophenols in tap water.

 

[hasunhats]

I let bottles condition anywhere from 2 weeks, to 6!

Let them sit in fridge at least for a week to settle out.

I have tried ingredients from austin homebrew supply, morebeer, northern brewer - all the same resulting off flavor. I'm pretty sure it's not ingredients, but something else somewhere.

I prime via corn sugar.

And I do sanitize the priming sugar (via the boiling water). However, a thought just hit me - is that enough? Could I be getting off flavors from not-dissolved-enough priming sugar? How could I improve this?

I do rinse the bottles. But my thought from the start had been they could be part of the culprit as I've reused them numerous times. Have new ones on order!

 

[Hopinista]

I let bottles condition anywhere from 2 weeks, to 6!

Let them sit in fridge at least for a week to settle out.

I have tried ingredients from austin homebrew supply, morebeer, northern brewer - all the same resulting off flavor. I'm pretty sure it's not ingredients, but something else somewhere.

I prime via corn sugar.

And I do sanitize the priming sugar (via the boiling water). However, a thought just hit me - is that enough? Could I be getting off flavors from not-dissolved-enough priming sugar? How could I improve this?

I do rinse the bottles. But my thought from the start had been they could be part of the culprit as I've reused them numerous times. Have new ones on order!

I've used my current bottles for 20+ batches, as long as they're cleaned and sanitized properly you shouldn't get any issues from them.

 

[machfive55]

Stop treating your water with campden. I don't know why you would want to treat it? I would say try bottled water and don't treat it at all.

 

[hasunhats]

I have tried untreated, bottled water and it resulted in the same off flavor as campden treated water.

 

[Zwerski]

My own plastic/band-aid/medicinal issues were apparently a result of chloramine and were solved with campden tablets.


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[pdxal]

All the factors (water, yeast, ingredients, sanitizer, etc.) changed with same result probably means it is a process issue.
Try brewing with another homebrewer and see if you are doing something wrong.
-Don't buy bottles, drink good beers and re use the bottles.

 

[grathan]

Arrowhead mineral analysis suggests low calcium and high bicarbonate. Might want to try a different bottled water one time.