Considering Doing Small Batches as Starters

[mkyl428]

I have been thinking about doing small 1gal batches to harvest the yeast cake to pitch in larger batches, I figure if I am going to do a starter anyway why not just make beer?:rockin:

A couple of questions though:

Would this restrict the gravity on my small batches? I know a normal starter is about 1.040 would it be bad for the yeast to do say a 1.070 small batch to harvest slurry from? What would be the limit on OG for harvesting yeast from my small batch before I negatively impact the yeast?

If I wanted to use these small batches for experiments could I safely assume that I could wash the yeast and still use it without changing the flavor on the larger beer? Say I wanted to experiment with some spices or peppers or something would this change the 5 gal batch down the line?

 

[biertourist]

I have been thinking about doing small 1gal batches to harvest the yeast cake to pitch in larger batches, I figure if I am going to do a starter anyway why not just make beer?:rockin:

A couple of questions though:

Would this restrict the gravity on my small batches? I know a normal starter is about 1.040 would it be bad for the yeast to do say a 1.070 small batch to harvest slurry from? What would be the limit on OG for harvesting yeast from my small batch before I negatively impact the yeast?

If I wanted to use these small batches for experiments could I safely assume that I could wash the yeast and still use it without changing the flavor on the larger beer? Say I wanted to experiment with some spices or peppers or something would this change the 5 gal batch down the line?

First of all this is a FANTASTIC idea; surprised I haven't heard of someone else doing it already.

Doing a higher gravity "starter beer" is not a good idea. The purpose of a starter is to get a large quantity of high viability and high vitality, HEALTHY yeast; pitching from a packet into a high gravity beer is going to negatively impact the health AND high gravity (alcohol) fermentations results in higher percentages of yeast mutations and autolysis; pretty much the opposite of a starter.

Ideally, your starter beers would be normal gravity beers.


I assume you mean yeast rinsing and not yeast washing (yeast rinsing is just using water to dillute the yeast and get rid of protein and dead yeast cells; yeast washing involves acid or chlorine to kill microbes; yes, I know this term is used incorrectly on HBT more than it's used correctly.). -Yeast rinsing would be a pretty good idea and a good way to limit the flavor coming over between batches.

Having said that there are some flavors that are so over-the-top you probably wouldn't want to include them in your "starter beer" at all. The more extreme stuff you should probably save for a split batch from your main fermentation rather than your "starter beer".


Good luck; hopefully you'll start a brewing revolution with this idea!

Adam

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

I've done this before without the yeast rinsing (washing, what have you). I just throw the big beer on top of the yeast cake and let it ride. I personally havent had issues and the beers come out fine without apparent off flavors that could be caused by overpitching. Since sounds like you're willing to go through the rinsing process you'll be that much less likely to run into issues. But from what I've read theres a couple things to watch out for.

1. Go from less hoppy/bitter to more hoppy/bitter batches, if your starter beer is going to be a pale ale and your big beer is going to be a something super malty with low/none hop bitterness some of the hop trub from the starter will get mixed in with the new beer potentially throwing off unintended flavors (my example isnt the best).
2. Go from light to dark, you wouldn't want some roast character coming off of your stout showing up in a big IPA.
3. Overpitching is an issue if you use the ENTIRE cake.
4. Ferment temp could become an issue because it can take off so quickly and ferment super fast so all the activity can rocket up the fermentation temps.
5. Save the spice/freaky additions when you no longer plan to use the yeast, it can carry over.

A big qualifier on all of this, two qualifiers that is. If you're rinsing/washing your yeast a lot of the above is no longer an issue because the trub/protein/hop material gets washed away and you get straight up yeast, though its still good to take precautions. And, I don't yeast wash, I've had no issues with just throwing the big beers right on top of the cake I had extra trub in the 2nd batch but nothing careful racking won't deal with (and I would take the above precautions). I don't temp control, I just have a basement that stays around 65 and I havent had temp issues or overpitching issues I just left the beer on the cake and they cleaned up fast.

 

[mkyl428]

I've done this before without the yeast rinsing (washing, what have you). I just throw the big beer on top of the yeast cake and let it ride. I personally havent had issues and the beers come out fine without apparent off flavors that could be caused by overpitching. Since sounds like you're willing to go through the rinsing process you'll be that much less likely to run into issues. But from what I've read theres a couple things to watch out for.

1. Go from less hoppy/bitter to more hoppy/bitter batches, if your starter beer is going to be a pale ale and your big beer is going to be a something super malty with low/none hop bitterness some of the hop trub from the starter will get mixed in with the new beer potentially throwing off unintended flavors (my example isnt the best).
2. Go from light to dark, you wouldn't want some roast character coming off of your stout showing up in a big IPA.
3. Overpitching is an issue if you use the ENTIRE cake.
4. Ferment temp could become an issue because it can take off so quickly and ferment super fast so all the activity can rocket up the fermentation temps.
5. Save the spice/freaky additions when you no longer plan to use the yeast, it can carry over.

A big qualifier on all of this, two qualifiers that is. If you're rinsing/washing your yeast a lot of the above is no longer an issue because the trub/protein/hop material gets washed away and you get straight up yeast, though its still good to take precautions. And, I don't yeast wash, I've had no issues with just throwing the big beers right on top of the cake I had extra trub in the 2nd batch but nothing careful racking won't deal with (and I would take the above precautions). I don't temp control, I just have a basement that stays around 65 and I havent had temp issues or overpitching issues I just left the beer on the cake and they cleaned up fast.

I'm talking about doing the 1 gallon batch in a separate fermenter like you would do a normal starter only no shaking to aerate and actually bottling the beer I make. The 5 gallon batch I pitch the yeast into would be in my normal 6 gal fermenter. I could be wrong and please correct me if I am, but it sounds like you are talking about doing 5 gallons of a lower gravity beer as a starter for a bigger 5 gallon beer, this is not what I'm talking about.

If that's not what you are talking about, & you are talking about the same thing I am, I could, and probably will use MrMalty to calculate my pitch rates. Would the cake from 1 gallon of beer really be over pitching that much on a 5 gallon batch? My normal starters are already 2L that's only a bit more than a liter more wort getting fermented plus it is not being constantly aerated so I would think growth would be less. If anything I think I would be over pitching the 1 gallon batch by pitching an entire WL vial into a gallon that's why I was wondering if it could maybe handle a higher gravity wort for my "starter beer".

 

[mkyl428]

First of all this is a FANTASTIC idea; surprised I haven't heard of someone else doing it already.

Doing a higher gravity "starter beer" is not a good idea. The purpose of a starter is to get a large quantity of high viability and high vitality, HEALTHY yeast; pitching from a packet into a high gravity beer is going to negatively impact the health AND high gravity (alcohol) fermentations results in higher percentages of yeast mutations and autolysis; pretty much the opposite of a starter.

Ideally, your starter beers would be normal gravity beers.


I assume you mean yeast rinsing and not yeast washing (yeast rinsing is just using water to dillute the yeast and get rid of protein and dead yeast cells; yeast washing involves acid or chlorine to kill microbes; yes, I know this term is used incorrectly on HBT more than it's used correctly.). -Yeast rinsing would be a pretty good idea and a good way to limit the flavor coming over between batches.

Having said that there are some flavors that are so over-the-top you probably wouldn't want to include them in your "starter beer" at all. The more extreme stuff you should probably save for a split batch from your main fermentation rather than your "starter beer".


Good luck; hopefully you'll start a brewing revolution with this idea!

Adam

Thanks glad you like the idea.

That makes since about the yeast mutations and autolysis from the higher gravity fermentation. I just kind of thought since pitching an entire vial into the 1 gallon batch would technically be over pitching that batch maybe it could handle a higher gravity.

I will try and stay away from anything too crazy in my starter batches if I do this. Maybe I could do a secondary on my small batches for experimental additions, this would allow me to get to the yeast sooner if need be too which might not be a bad idea.

 

[QuercusMax]

For lagers, I'll do a 3-gallon/1.050 batch as a starter, and for ales I'll do a 5-gallon/1.050 batch as a starter for a bigger beer. It may take a little longer than doing a standalone starter, but I get another batch of beer. Works very nicely.

 

[poptarts]

http://laramiebrew.club/2014/10/pressure-canning-starter-wort/

 

[mkyl428]

http://laramiebrew.club/2014/10/pressure-canning-starter-wort/

Cool article & I like the Idea for regular starters, but I don't see how it applies to making 1 gallon of beer to use as a starter and also bottle and consume.

 

[poptarts]

yea if your goal is consuming then its not for you, but it basically give you the ability to combine all the starters into 1 batch of brewing.

 

[mkyl428]

Sounds like a solid Idea

My thought process is to eliminate starters I pour down the sink, and instead make 1 gallon batches of beer to bottle and also repitch the yeast from thereby using that 1 gallon batch as my starter for my 5 gallon batch

 

[jtratcliff]

Why not go ahead and do a 3g or 5 g batch of session beer as your starter? Other than a slightly shorter time to boil and slightly longer time to cool to pitching temps, the amount of work is about the same....

And you can split the yeast cake into a few usable amounts to use in other brews... I usually try to use about a quarter of the yeast cake by swirling it around (adding a little water if necessary) then pouring it off into 4 individual 1 pint jars.

Of course, now you're just re-using rinsed yeast from a previous batch and not "making a starter" but the end result is kinda the same

 

[mkyl428]

Why not go ahead and do a 3g or 5 g batch of session beer as your starter? Other than a slightly shorter time to boil and slightly longer time to cool to pitching temps, the amount of work is about the same....

And you can split the yeast cake into a few usable amounts to use in other brews... I usually try to use about a quarter of the yeast cake by swirling it around (adding a little water if necessary) then pouring it off into 4 individual 1 pint jars.

Of course, now you're just re-using rinsed yeast from a previous batch and not "making a starter" but the end result is kinda the same

The smaller gravity 5 gallon used for a larger gravity beer is how I got the idea, but I have just enough space in my fem chamber that I could fit a small batch or 2 along with the 10 gallons I already keep going. I also already harvest yeast on my 5 gallon batches, depending on the yeast I am using and whether or not I feel like messing with it or not.

I get that it will take me just as long to do small batch as a big one, that is why I normally do 5 gallon batches, however I could do a 1 gal on my stove making it a bit easier plus my original thought was I could do test batches of things I may not want 5 gallons of. I may only test crazy ideas in a secondary though if I do this to avoid flavor transfers.

The idea is not to switch to small batch brewing, it is to eliminate the waste of dumping starters down the sink and also have a greater variety of beer around.

With some planning I think I could brew a 1 gallon batch and then bottle it either on brew day or a day or 2 before to reuse the yeast so I would have no need to do regular starters.

Maybe it technically wouldn't be a starter if I washed the yeast, but if I don't get crazy with my small batches I may not need to wash it anyway

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

I'm talking about doing the 1 gallon batch in a separate fermenter like you would do a normal starter only no shaking to aerate and actually bottling the beer I make. The 5 gallon batch I pitch the yeast into would be in my normal 6 gal fermenter. I could be wrong and please correct me if I am, but it sounds like you are talking about doing 5 gallons of a lower gravity beer as a starter for a bigger 5 gallon beer, this is not what I'm talking about.

If that's not what you are talking about, & you are talking about the same thing I am, I could, and probably will use MrMalty to calculate my pitch rates. Would the cake from 1 gallon of beer really be over pitching that much on a 5 gallon batch? My normal starters are already 2L that's only a bit more than a liter more wort getting fermented plus it is not being constantly aerated so I would think growth would be less. If anything I think I would be over pitching the 1 gallon batch by pitching an entire WL vial into a gallon that's why I was wondering if it could maybe handle a higher gravity wort for my "starter beer".

If I came across as preachy or criticizing you I didn't mean to. I like the idea and if you're willing to just do a quick wash a lot of the stuff I pointed out that could be an issue won't be, even without the washing its not gonna be a big issue.

I guess it comes down to how many viable yeast cells will be left on the cake after the starter beer. It should be a massive number and if you're talking about a *BIG* beer (I would say big starts at 1.090) it should work out perfectly. Even my lazy 5 gallon to 5 gallon yeast cake pitches work out just fine.

 

[mkyl428]

If I came across as preachy or criticizing you I didn't mean to.

No, not at all & I appreciate the input, I just wasn't sure if you misunderstood me and thought I meant I was going to do a small gravity beer as a starter for a large gravity beer, and I wanted to make sure we were talking about the same thing

I was truly curious if you thought the cake from a 1 gal would be over pitching that significantly given that it isn't constantly aerated like my normal 2L starters.

I have never made a 1 gal batch only 5 gal so I'm not sure the size of yeast cake I will end up with & thought you may have more insight based on experience.

Also, I may or may not be talking about using it for that BIG of a beer in terms of gravity, mostly I am refering to batch size, for the most part I am talking about just using it in lieu of a starter for say a 1.060 - 1.070 beer

 

[youreanimpulse]

I do this exact thing (1 gal stovetop batches to grow yeast for 5 gal batches, and as experiments). I've consulted pitching rate calculators and when set to no agitation and high trub percentage it has been fine. I don't rinse yeast, I bottle on brewday and immediately pitch the cake. No issues.

 

[mkyl428]

I do this exact thing (1 gal stovetop batches to grow yeast for 5 gal batches, and as experiments). I've consulted pitching rate calculators and when set to no agitation and high trub percentage it has been fine. I don't rinse yeast, I bottle on brewday and immediately pitch the cake. No issues.

Awesome, this is exactly what I was looking for! So you have not had any flavor problems from your experiments crossing over? Do you usually pitch the entire cake or do you measure it out and save some for later?

I'm assuming you pitch the entire pack of yeast in your small batch this is over pitching for most 1gal batches have you noticed any ill effects in the small batch from over pitching?

Do you find you have to watch what you brew as a starter beer? Obviously you would not want to make a stout, to pitch the cake on a pale ale or something but what about brewing a 1 gallon IPA to pitch in something with considerably less hop character, or a jalapeno Belgian before a standard witbier?

I knew someone had to be doing this!

 

[youreanimpulse]

I've been doing mostly SMaSH and IPA experiments. Simpler (or similar) beers than the full batches for reasons listed above. I do pitch the whole vial or smack pack into the gallon and I do pitch the whole cake from the one gal batch. Currently have an IPA going with Brett L.

 

[Riot]

I've come to really like this approach for 8% plus Belgians. A 1.05 pale gets you a whole lot of workable yeast and some nice beer to drink. I don't pitch the whole cake, but I don't generally ferment less than 5 gallons either.

 

[Barny]

Interesting idea, think I'll have to start playing with this too.

If over pitching is a worry could carefully move the beer/starter to a 2nd 1 gallon vessel (where you could also dry hop, add fruit, etc) for the beer to condition and then rinse the cake. After rinsing you don't have to pitch all of it.

After trub and general loss still probably get a 6 pack and the chance to play around with malt combinations.


- My name is Barny, and I'm an alcoholic.
- Mr. Gumbel, this is a Girl Scout meeting.
- Is it? Or is it that you girls can't admit you have a problem? (The Simpsons)

 

[burninator]

I'm in the process of doing this right now, as a matter of fact, though I won't necessarily be scaling it up to 5 gallons, just yet. I want to see how this goes.

Started a low gravity Vienna/Saaz ale last night. It should ferment out fairly quickly, so I intend to just rack and pitch the yeast (trub?) into an amber I'll brew next week.

If I feel really wild, then I'll brew an old ale in a few weeks and put my wort directly onto that cake, after racking my amber.

 

[jtratcliff]

just remember, you don't need to use the whole yeast cake from your "starter" beer... Use 1/3 or 1/2 and you'll probably be more than fine... Save the rest for another brew... if you pitch the leftover within a month or so, you won't even need a starter.

 

[youreanimpulse]

It's true that sometimes I pitch half the 1 gal cake. Always crunch the numbers in a pitching rate calculator. I use Brewer's Friend most of the time.