conical fermenter for carbing also

[area123]

I'm fairly new to brewing, have made some descent batches of cider in my glass carboys. But I want to upgrade to a simpler method and eliminate some of the sanitation and risk for bacteria. And make the process a little simpler. Right now I do the fairly standard process of racking into secondary and then bottle conditioning to get a dry sparkling cider.

At the very least I want to upgrade to a stainless conical so I can do secondary without siphoning, also seems like this will be more sanitary and you can bottle right from the fermenter if you want to bottle condition, at least that's how I think it will work out. Any recommendations on a good conical at a reasonable price?



I've also wondered why people don't prime and condition/carbonate in the fermenter (that would have to double as a brite tank) and eliminate the individual bottle conditioning. This way I can do everything in one tank from start to finish and safely bottle up a finished product with the option of bottling a sweet sparkling cider. I do occasionally like a little sweetness in my ciders.

Anyway, its just a thought. There may be some flaw in my thinking, and I'm sure it would not be cheap to get this kind of conical fermenter/brite tank equipment.

 

[MarkKF]

I can't imagine using anything but glass for secondary/aging. If it's clear in s carboy it's CLEAR!

 

[area123]

I can't imagine using anything but glass for secondary/aging. If it's clear in s carboy it's CLEAR!

Yeah that is something nice about glass. part of my motivation is that I want to do double batches. So i'm looking at the 14+ gallon conicals.

 

[CMcPherson]

I've also wondered why people don't prime and condition/carbonate in the fermenter (that would have to double as a brite tank) and eliminate the individual bottle conditioning.

Doesn't the container in which you are carbonating need to be sealed so that pressure can build and the cider becomes saturated?

 

[area123]

Doesn't the container in which you are carbonating need to be sealed so that pressure can build and the cider becomes saturated?

Yes it does. But they make fermenters that double as Brite tanks for carbing. They are just too expensive for me. And I don't know anybody who does it that way.

 

[iijakii]

Yeah, pressure rated conicals are pretty damn expensive.

 

[SanPancho]

the reason people use brites as brites and fermenters as fermenters is that there are alot of byproducts of fermentation that happen along the way. you want to leave that stuff behind and go into a nice clean brite to carb and serve.

with cider, i dont know if its the same issue. but most commercial tanks have PRVs in the ~15psi range so they could carb if they wanted to do so. but i dont know anybody who does.

again, cider may be different. email some cider makers and see what they say.

 

[area123]

Yeah that's definitely a plus to racking. But I thought the point of conicals was to be able to remove the lees from the bottom valve on the cone. I've never used a conical so I'm not sure how well you can get it out from that bottom valve.

 

[area123]

I guess for small batches I could use a soda keg as a Brite tank. I think that's pretty common.

 

[theDREWery]

Plenty of people ferment in kegs, you can shorten the dip tube so it rides above the lees. Build some jump lines so you can do pressurized transfer from one keg to another. Kegs and lines are much cheaper than conicals.

 

[Doctor_M]

There are two conicals out there that you can or should be able to carb in. The first one is from a company that unfortunately out of business now. The Brewhemoth. I happen to own two and Theres a picture of them as my avatar.

The second ones aren't advertised as they are not technically rated for pressure over 5psi but if you do some digging you can find threads where people have spoken with the manufacturer and have been told they "should" be fine but it hasn't been certified to those pressures. Those conicals are the ones from brewers hardware.

Brewershardware.Com

 

[madscientist451]

At the very least I want to upgrade to a stainless conical so I can do secondary without siphoning, also seems like this will be more sanitary and you can bottle right from the fermenter if you want to bottle condition, at least that's how I think it will work out. Any recommendations on a good conical at a reasonable price?



I've also wondered why people don't prime and condition/carbonate in the fermenter (that would have to double as a brite tank) and eliminate the individual bottle conditioning.

If you want to primary/secondary/carbonate all in one vessel, you can do that, there are several threads and articles on what to do.
The cheapest and easiest, in my opinion, is to follow a suggestion (above) to shorten the dip tube from a corny keg and add a fermenting lid:
http://www.kegglebrewing.com/Fermenting-Lid-for-Corny-Keg_p_120.html

When fermentation almost done, put the regular lid on and add an adjustable pressure relief valve:
http://www.williamsbrewing.com/0-60-ADJUSTABLE-PRESSURE-RELIEF-VALVE-P3453.aspx

By experimenting with different gravity levels and different yeasts, you'll find the right gravity point to switch to the pressure lid and carbonate the cider.
There are several DIY articles around on making your own spunding valve and fermenting keg lid if you want to do that.

http://byo.com/color/item/397-build-your-own-spunding-valve-to-carbonate-in-the-keg


If you want to bottle from the keg, a specialized filler is recommended:
http://www.blichmannengineering.com/products/beergun

You'll also need a Co2 tank and a regulator to fill bottles from the keg.

I can't recommend a homebrew scale conical fermenter at a reasonable price, I think they are all too expensive for what you get, but If I won the lottery I'd probably have some.
I wouldn't try to put the adjustable pressure valve (above) on a conical fermenter because you really don't know what the vessel is rated at.
It probably has been done and could work, but going the corny keg route would be cheaper and more of a sure thing.
When I make cider, I use fresh pressed juice that produces about 1.5" of lees in the bottom of a 6.5 gallon carboy when fermentation is done. I'd rather rack the cider off into another vessel and not have all that material in the bottom of a keg.. The risk of contamination from racking is there, but not really worth worrying about.
I do, however, think that natural carbonation and/or force carbing in a keg and then bottling is worth trying and I'll get around to it someday.
Good Luck!

 

[CMcPherson]

I need to learn something about fermenting in kegs. That would almost eliminate contamination and oxidation wouldn't it?

 

[area123]

There are two conicals out there that you can or should be able to carb in. The first one is from a company that unfortunately out of business now. The Brewhemoth. I happen to own two and Theres a picture of them as my avatar.

The second ones aren't advertised as they are not technically rated for pressure over 5psi but if you do some digging you can find threads where people have spoken with the manufacturer and have been told they "should" be fine but it hasn't been certified to those pressures. Those conicals are the ones from brewers hardware.

Brewershardware.Com

I think brew magic has a 3 bbl one for $2800. But I'd like a 30 gallon for about $1200 or so... Maybe I can make one.

 

[area123]

I need to learn something about fermenting in kegs. That would almost eliminate contamination and oxidation wouldn't it?

Only problem I see with doing it all in a keg is that you can't get the lees off the bottom like you could in a conical.

My ideal setup would be to ferment and suck the lees out the cone after primary, and then let the secondary occur under pressure to naturally carbonate. Then add a littl co2 of necessary before bottling. Could maybe even filter it on the way thru the counter pressure bottler. With this setup you never have to open anything, rack, siphon, add priming sugar or touch a plastic bucket. The only reason I'd ever have to open the lid is if I wanted to add hops or fruit in secondary or something like that.

 

[CMcPherson]

Only problem I see with doing it all in a keg is that you can't get the lees off the bottom like you could in a conical.

Wouldn't shortening the dip tube as suggested eliminate this concern?

 

[Doctor_M]

Wouldn't shortening the dip tube as suggested eliminate this concern?

How would shortening the dip tube help him get the yeast out of the keg?

 

[CMcPherson]

How would shortening the dip tube help him get the yeast out of the keg?

I'm much to new at this to be answering questions and don't know a darn think about kegging.

I was picturing the shortened dip tube not reaching the lees so it not mattering if they were there or not.

 

[Maylar]

But the point of racking is to get off the lees altogether. The conical would allow dumping the lees out the bottom.

 

[CMcPherson]

Oops... that's right, the bad flavors/color/aromas contributed by the lees right? I forgot about that.

 

[area123]

Oops... that's right, the bad flavors/color/aromas contributed by the lees right? I forgot about that.

Yeah. I've always racked it off the lees into a secondary fermenter. But I know people who do 2 weeks in primary and then back sweeten and bottle. Just let it bottle condition and it tastes pretty darn good the ones I've had. You do get some sediment in the bottle since it's essentially doing secondary in the bottle. But it's not much.

There are some very reasonable priced conicals that are rated to 5 psi. Would 5 psi carbonate over a period of 2 weeks in secondary? I don't know much about pressures required and length of time.

 

[Maylar]

Yeah. I've always racked it off the lees into a secondary fermenter. But I know people who do 2 weeks in primary and then back sweeten and bottle. Just let it bottle condition and it tastes pretty darn good the ones I've had. You do get some sediment in the bottle since it's essentially doing secondary in the bottle. But it's not much.

There are some very reasonable priced conicals that are rated to 5 psi. Would 5 psi carbonate over a period of 2 weeks in secondary? I don't know much about pressures required and length of time.

Typical room temp pressure for a well carbonated beverage is about 30 PSI.

 

[Maylar]

Oops... that's right, the bad flavors/color/aromas contributed by the lees right? I forgot about that.

Google "autolysis" and "Yeast bite" (a beer term). Autolysis is yeast dependent, some are worse than others. 71B-1122 is noted for it, and people who use it get paranoid about racking.

 

[CMcPherson]